50 BMG case weight/damage from falling

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mokin

mokin

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This is a thought that I have pondered off and on....

In contemplating the air war in Europe during WW2, I've wondered how much damage was caused by falling brass. I was watching a documentary last night that had a lot of information about bomber tactics and the B-17. It was mentioned that planes were damaged when hit by falling brass. Although I suspected this occured, I had never heard it before.

Just for fun, I did some math and came to the conclusion that an 850 grain piece of brass would reach a terminal velocity of 133 ft/s and impact with 33 ft/lbs of force. Does that sound reasonable? I realize there are a lot of variables I can't account for, but is 33 lbs in the ballpark?
 
AlexanderA said:
The breeches of the .50 guns on B17's were all inboard. Therefore the empties would have accumulated inside the fuselages.
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You're forgetting the ball and chin turrets . . .

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Also, I believe the modified tail position dumped links and empties overboard, as there was less room and allowing them to accumulate was a problem.
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Geez this got me wondering. How many rounds on average did a single heavy bomber use on a typical run over enemy territory? I would think US ones would be more with daylight raids vs the Brits at night.
 
mokin said:
Just for fun, I did some math and came to the conclusion that an 850 grain piece of brass would reach a terminal velocity of 133 ft/s and impact with 33 ft/lbs of force. Does that sound reasonable? I realize there are a lot of variables I can't account for, but is 33 lbs in the ballpark?
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I wouldn't know. But I think I'd be a lot more worried about the damage to my plane resulting from flying into 50 BMG brass falling from the sky, than I would about how much damage it would do if it just landed on top of my plane - if I was a WWII flier that is. :)
 
I would have to say yes, a piece of 50 BMG brass is heavy. Falling at terminal velocity and being unlucky enough to get hit in the head with it, you could possibly be killed.

I doubt it was ever considered in any war, most worry about where all those stray bullets are going.

I would think that some people might've been killed by falling debris from planes, even brass.
 
In the Mojave desert you can still find .50 BMG cases with 43,44, and 4 headstamps.

If you find two cases close, you draw a line between the two, then go down the line the same distance as the distance between the first two cases and find another, and another, ect.

If you look close you can also find link on the line.

If you really look hard, especially in sand dunes you also find projectiles.

I think they used the dunes (Stovepipe, Panamint, Saline, Ibex, Eureka.....) to see how the guns were regulated, the whole area was closed for training during WW2.
 
Bwana,
There's plenty down in the low desert also, between Niland CA and the AZ border.

North of U.P.'s RR tracks is the old WWII training grounds that are still used today.

I've found all kinds of .50, 20mm and 30mm, some still linked. Just be careful where and when you walk out there.
 
In certain parts of the world, there are locals who run out underneath the aircraft while .50 BMG is being fired during training, in the hopes of catching / collecting the brass. Sometimes they are a bit “off” in their timing, and it hits them. It hurts, but a lot of the hurt comes from the still hot brass as they gather it up.
 
"There's plenty down in the low desert also, between Niland CA and the AZ border."

One of my favorite finds out in the desert was a .50 BMG projectile coming out of the sand 15 yards away from a large atlatl point also coming out of the sand.

I can just see a future archeologist.... Ummm, no wonder they lost!
 
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.308 Norma said:
I wouldn't know. But I think I'd be a lot more worried about the damage to my plane resulting from flying into 50 BMG brass falling from the sky, than I would about how much damage it would do if it just landed on top of my plane - if I was a WWII flier that is. :)
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Actually, in early jets, being hit by cases dumped overboard while shooting was a major problem.

The Hawker Hunter had a big problem of 30mm cases being caught in the boundary layer and tumbling back along the fuselage, and causing serious damage to the aircraft skin. Ejection chutes had to be added to get the cases clear of the fuselage.

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Later supersonic aircraft, like the F8U Crusader had bins inside the fuselage to collect the cases and links.

F8U-1+Cross+section+gun+and+ammo+crop.jpg
 
kwguy said:
In certain parts of the world, there are locals who run out underneath the aircraft while .50 BMG is being fired during training, in the hopes of catching / collecting the brass. Sometimes they are a bit “off” in their timing, and it hits them. It hurts, but a lot of the hurt comes from the still hot brass as they gather it up.
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The three barrel Vulcan used on the AH-1 series dumps three live rounds overboard every time you let off the trigger, part of the designed clearing action for the gun.

That can cause a safety issue is you are shooting anything other than TP . . .
 
Falling brass from 50BMG and bigger would hurt a lot on bare skin. More from heat than the falling velocity. I have had 20mm casings bounce off my helmet and clothes in the sandbox. Wasn't comfortable but didn't hurt. I don't see falling brass damaging an aircraft unless they go into some place they aren't supposed to, like propellers or engine intakes. Canopy glass (actually Plexiglass) is pretty thick and robust stuff.
 
There was a lot of stuff falling out of airplanes that one wouldn’t want to run into. Some much worse to hit than a piece of brass.

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Why they to this day airplanes fly in formations that are aimed to keep them in the air vs hitting the ground. Things generally fall to earth around 32ft/sec/sec, until they reach terminal velocity but some things don’t.

You want the planes behind you to be higher if your cargo can’t fall out of their way fast enough.

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jmorris said:
There was a lot of stuff falling out of airplanes that one wouldn’t want to run into. Some much worse to hit than a piece of brass.


Why they to this day airplanes fly in formations that are aimed to keep them in the air vs hitting the ground. Things generally fall to earth around 32ft/sec/sec, until they reach terminal velocity but some things don’t.

You want the planes behind you to be higher if your cargo can’t fall out of their way fast enough.

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Holly Litter!

When I worked at the Airport, you were fired on the Spot if you hit the plane with the Tug. I guess planes are more durable then we were told
 
jmorris said:
There was a lot of stuff falling out of airplanes that one wouldn’t want to run into. Some much worse to hit than a piece of brass.
You want the planes behind you to be higher if your cargo can’t fall out of their way fast enough.
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Actually, in the box formation the trailing element was the lowest element in the box. There was approximately 600 feet altitude difference between highest and lowest elements.
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Maintaining your position in the formation was very important.

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lysanderxiii said:
Actually, in the box formation the trailing element was the lowest element in the box. There was approximately 600 feet altitude difference between highest and lowest elements.
View attachment 1085001

Maintaining your position in the formation was very important.

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Amazing, a lot of these service guys were 18-19-20-21 years old, just a different breed of people then. great photos!
 
edwardware said:
I'm going to need a citation for that second picture please. That is quite something.
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On May 19, 1944, Boeing B-17G-20-BO serial number 42-31540 "Miss Donna Mae II" assigned to the 331st Bombardment Squadron, 94th Bombardment Group was on a mission over Berlin when it was struck by a 1,000 pound bomb dropped from Lockheed-Vega B-17G-30-VE serial number 42-97791 "Trudy". The bomb sheared off the left horizontal stabilizer at the root after which the B-17 entered a steep dive and crashed a few miles from the target. All eleven crew were killed.

Such incidents were not uncommon. At least the RAF B-24 "V Victor" had a little happier ending, due to the fact that these bombs were only 250 pound ones.

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Well. I know you don't want to be anywhere under a helo at any altitude when a minigun is going off- those 7.62 casing are HOT and there's a lot pouring out. Also, I came across the 30mm casings that drop from the A10's when they do a gun run, but those runs were always done across the front of our positions at the enemy at low altitude, plus they explode on impact- need a standoff from that just so you don't get hit by secondary projectiles from all the explosions- wouldn't want to get hit by the brass either though- they come on low but they are moving fast.
 
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