Armed Citizen Stops "Crime Spree"

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Jeff White

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I'm certainly not advocating this:
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...cle_31011371-4d41-5b63-815b-027d9fe163b2.html
The Quik Trip customer, identified only as a 26-year-old man from St. Louis, stopped around 3:20 a.m. at the gas station at 2260 First Capitol Dr. to use the restroom and make a purchase, St. Charles police said in a release. The man was on his way back to his vehicle in front of the store when he saw a black SUV pull up abruptly.

The customer watched a man get out of the SUV, run into the Quik Trip carrying a backpack, and approach a clerk by the coffee pots, police said. He then grabbed the clerk and dragged her to the front of the store while she was screaming.

The customer saw the man inside the station holding a knife to the clerk's throat. The customer got his 9mm handgun from his vehicle, entered the store, and confronted the suspect, police said.

The suspect grabbed his backpack, told the man, "I have something for you," and walked toward him, police said.

The customer then fired several times. The suspect fell to the floor. The customer and the clerk, who were uninjured, both called 911, police said.

The suspect was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead, police said.


Went out to his car and retrieved his 9mm pistol and confronted the robber while he was holding a clerk at knife point. I know there are members here who will cheer this incident. Fortune sometimes smiles on fools and drunks...........there is no way of telling what would have happened if things had gone down differently, but the number of things that could have gone wrong and turned this into a completely different story is a pretty large number. Fortunately nothing "went wrong" and there was a good outcome. Blindly charging into a situation like that usually doesn't have a good outcome.
 
On the flipside, there's always the unintended repercussions of such (noble) actions...

Imagine, if the crim was the nephew of some crime boss. Or a member of some biker gang, to make things more relatably pedestrian...
 
Justified, but so risky as to be most imprudent. Lucky outcome.

Three armed robberies in twenty minutes.

I don't go out at that hour. I worry about the clerks in those places.
 
there is no way of telling what would have happened if things had gone down differently, but the number of things that could have gone wrong and turned this into a completely different story is a pretty large number. Fortunately nothing "went wrong" and there was a good outcome. Blindly charging into a situation like that usually doesn't have a good outcome.

People that take action when action is required aren't deserving of contempt. Sometimes considering every possible outcome is the best way of achieving the worst one.
I can't even imagine having the power to stop someone holding a knife to an innocent woman's throat as he drags her around screaming and sitting there doing nothing.
Things had already gone wrong. That was the reason the HERO in this story was forced to act. 1 slash across that woman's neck and she would have bled out right there with pretty much zero chance of living.
 
I can't even imagine having the power to stop someone holding a knife to an innocent woman's throat as he drags her around screaming and sitting there doing nothing.
How about having the power to screw it up?

1 slash across that woman's neck and she would have bled out right there with pretty much zero chance of living.
That could well have been the result of intervention.
 
Things had already gone wrong. That was the reason the HERO in this story was forced to act. 1 slash across that woman's neck and she would have bled out right there with pretty much zero chance of living.
What if he had slashed her throat when your “hero” confronted him? Things could have gone much worse. Or perhaps it would have turned into a hostage situation and your “hero” attempted to resolve it by shooting the robber and hit the hostage?

There was no hero in this story. This is a story about luck. Luck smiled on the unnamed citizen that day. If luck hadn’t been with him there would have been a very different outcome and people would not be calling him a hero.

The police would not have charged into that convenience store. They would have waited outside and attempted an arrest when the robber left. There are very sound tactical reasons for that response.
 
The police would not have charged into that convenience store. They would have waited outside and attempted an arrest when the robber left. There are very sound tactical reasons for that response.

It's funny you mention what the police would have done, Jeff.
What did the Uvalde police do - or more accurately not do - recently that had a pretty bad outcome?
Too much thinking and not enough doing is just as likely to result in a bad outcome. Roll the dice, you're only in control of so much.
But at least you freakin' tried.
 
What did the Uvalde police do - or more accurately not do - recently that had a pretty bad outcome?

That’s completely immaterial. It has no bearing on this incident.

Too much thinking and not enough doing is just as likely to result in a bad outcome. Roll the dice, you're only in control of so much.
But at least you freakin' tried.

Too much doing without thinking puts blind luck in control. You can tell yourself “at least you freakin’ tried” while you are losing everything you worked for your whole life in a civil suit for wrongful death if luck doesn’t smile on you. I hope it’s comforting…..
 
It’s probably “imprudent,” objectively, to even carry a gun, lest you find yourself using it to defend someone else when you could have just run away and pretended you were never there. You might end up with lawsuits or even be dead. Much better to just wear a shirt with a peace sign on it and practice your screaming or begging. At least that way nobody could possibly have grounds to accuse you of anything in court. And the experts say it works a lot more reliably than antiquated notions like self-defense.
 
It’s probably “imprudent,” objectively, to even carry a gun, lest you find yourself using it to defend someone else when you could have just run away and pretended you were never there. You might end up with lawsuits or even be dead. Much better to just wear a shirt with a peace sign on it and practice your screaming or begging. At least that way nobody could possibly have grounds to accuse you of anything in court. And the experts say it works a lot more reliably than antiquated notions like self-defense.
This WAS NOT SELF DEFENSE! The “hero” was in NO DANGER, he escaped the situation.

Luck! Plain and simple luck is the only reason an innocent person isn’t dead and our “hero” could be living with that for the rest of his life.
 
This WAS NOT SELF DEFENSE! The “hero” was in NO DANGER, he escaped the situation.

Luck! Plain and simple luck is the only reason an innocent person isn’t dead and our “hero” could be living with that for the rest of his life.

Unbelievable. You're literally blaming the person who came to the rescue of the cashier for putting her in danger rather than the scumbag holding a knife to her throat.
Luck, plain & simple, is why she wasn't already dead before the guy had time to make it back through the door.

Call the police, what would they do? Roll the dice again, it's anyone's guess. But chances are the 'good' cops would have done the same thing this guy did. Only difference is, he was there, and they were not.

You and I apparently have different definitions of the word 'hero'. For me, it isn't someone playing CYA and allowing the multitude of bad things that might happen to him stop him from doing the obviously right thing.

Really glad the guys on flight 93 on 9/11 didn't have the attitude you deem to be prudent.
 
If a person has a knife to your throat, you’re already dead, effectively. There is virtually nothing you can do to save yourself that doesn’t have a strong chance of resulting in your death. And your life exists at the whim of the scumbag. Does he feel like being sadistic? Prudent to cover his tracks and eliminate a witness? Merciful? I sure hope if someone has a knife to *my* throat that a well-meaning stranger with a 9mm is nearby to see it. At the very least it cannot make my situation objectively worse than it is. And odds are good that the scumbag will forget about me and focus on the threat -which is exactly what happened here.
 
This WAS NOT SELF DEFENSE! The “hero” was in NO DANGER, he escaped the situation.

Luck! Plain and simple luck is the only reason an innocent person isn’t dead and our “hero” could be living with that for the rest of his life.

It is self defense of another! I'll be blunt! Too many people are willing to sit on the sidelines and not help their fellow human for one reason or another!
 
Unbelievable. You're literally blaming the person who came to the rescue of the cashier for putting her in danger rather than the scumbag holding a knife to her throat..
No blame. The guy with the knife was a felon. The guy with the gun was just stupid.
But chances are the 'good' cops would have done the same thing this guy did
Nope. No police officer would attempt to rescue a hostage by charging in with a handgun.
 
Evil always wins when good people do nothing.

Pacifistroad.org is a path to every city in america becoming Juarez Mexico.
This is the last warning. ST&T is not a place to discuss philosophy. Philosophy and moral codes are never on topic here. I am going to start closing threads when the first post talking philosophy or personal moral codes is made. There are plenty of other places where you can discuss those things.............................
 
Okay, but Kleanbore you are the one expressing your philosophy to not get involved.
No.

To not foolishly charge in with a handgun to try to rescue a hostage is not a philosophical question. Jeff is referring to the discussion of evil "when good men do nothing".

Two other victims had survived threats from the same perp within twenty minutes of the incident at hand. One would reasonably have expected a similar outcome this time. The armed citizen's intervention might well have precipitated a fatal reaction, perhaps unintentionally.

Jeff, who has a law enforcement background, has said that police officers would have waited outside,

The first step in a hostage situation is always discussion and negotiation. Deadly force is always a last resort. Law enforcement techniques involve extremely precise shooting and a spotter who decides "when".

The armed citizen obviously did not know much about the subject, and he dd not think it through.

He and the victim are very lucky.
 
This outcome will depend a lot on whether the "defense of self OR OTHERS" is a justification for use of lethal force in the jurisdiction.

QUOTE: "Really glad the guys on flight 93 on 9/11 didn't have the attitude you deem to be prudent."

I think the situation was clear to passengers and crew on Flight 93 who the good guys and bad gays were, and what the consequences of inaction would be.

The situations I might run into, driving into a gas station at three a.m. in the morning, might not be so crystal clear on what would be the best course of action to take.
 
Two other victims had survived threats from the same perp within twenty minutes of the incident at hand. One would reasonably have expected a similar outcome this time. The armed citizen's intervention might well have precipitated a fatal reaction, perhaps unintentionally.

My problem with this is that if you or I were the man with the 9mm, we would have absolutely no prior knowledge of the suspect’s prior conduct. We’d have our own observations (a woman clerk being held with a knife at her throat, screaming, by someone not in uniform whom we would probably assume with reasonable certainty was a robber) and would have to form a plan of action in about 15 seconds. Prudence would dictate assuming the worst about the perp and his likely level of mercy.

Jeff, who has a law enforcement background, has said that police officers would have waited outside,

I think after Uvalde this proposed course of action, without qualification, is held in contempt by many. I realize the situations are not identical but there are definitely parallels that demonstrate that waiting for reinforcements and more information is not always the guarantor of the best outcome. There are obviously many reasons why waiting outside might be a better idea than charging in. On the other hand, it’s incontrovertible that in some situations quick, decisive action can make all the difference. This is a decision that must be made by the “first responders,” whoever they may be.

The first step in a hostage situation is always discussion and negotiation. Deadly force is always a last resort. Law enforcement techniques involve extremely precise shooting and a spotter who decides "when".

Definitely, but a full blown hostage rescue is not quite the same as a crime in progress.

The armed citizen obviously did not know much about the subject, and he dd not think it through.

He trusted the evidence of his own five senses and his life experience, and he thought it through sufficiently to take decisive action which solved the problem -correctly, as it turns out. It would be another matter entirely if, for example, he entered the store, shot the suspect, who, it turns out, was the clerk’s boyfriend, who was engaging with her in some kind of role playing in the wee hours of the morning at her work. As it turns out, the Good Samaritan thought it was a robber threatening deadly force on another, intervened, felt threatened, and stopped the attack. He was at the very least, incontrovertibly correct that deadly force on another was being threatened.

He and the victim are very lucky.

Very much so. It could have gone badly for her, and for him too. It’s not clear to me however that he had any real choice except to do what he did. His alternative would have been to remain in his vehicle and call the cops, and run the very real risk that they would be responding, minutes later, to a murder. We know after the fact that likely this would not have been the case, but he didn’t have the benefit of that omniscient perspective at the time.

I do feel that this case would be more clear-cut if he had been concealed-carrying rather than being obliged to retrieve his gun from his car.
 
My problem with this is that if you or I were the man with the 9mm, we would have absolutely no prior knowledge of the suspect’s prior conduct.
That is true.
We’d have our own observations (a woman clerk being held with a knife at her throat, screaming, by someone not in uniform whom we would probably assume with reasonable certainty was a robber) and would have to form a plan of action in about 15 seconds.
True also.
Prudence would dictate assuming the worst about the perp and his likely level of mercy.
I don't think so. We know that store robbers usually do not shoot, and that shooting them can cause them to do so.
Definitely, but a full blown hostage rescue is not quite the same as a crime in progress.
A hostage situation is a crime in progress.
He trusted the evidence of his own five senses and his life experience, and he thought it through sufficiently to take decisive action which solved the problem
I don't think so. I see it as a knee jerk reaction and a complete lack of training.
His alternative would have been to remain in his vehicle and call the cops, and run the very real risk that they would be responding, minutes later, to a murder.
The likelihood of occurrence of that risk was probably lower than the risk of precipitating a killing by causing the robber to panic.

This fellow was playing Russian Roulette with several chambers loaded.

I do feel that this case would be more clear-cut if he had been concealed-carrying rather than being obliged to retrieve his gun from his car.
How might that have mattered?
 
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