AJC1
Member
If you tested 5 each from the same lot I'm sure your individual case variation would be accounted for and applied case sizing would be meaningful. Tested on random samples of range pickups would net meaningless results.
Small base die for semi-autos?
- Thread starter nettlle
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The Glockodile
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2020
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- 1,688
Worst case of case springback I've personally come across was with 7.62x51mm CBC brass.
Bullets seated and firm in the case necks one moment, loose and sliding out the next.
Noticed that a few bullet points weren't standing at the same level as the majority when the loaded rounds were put together in a box - they were pretty loose and could be spun around with your fingers, too.
This wasn't a case of varying neck thicknesses, as they were all FLSized then dilated with a mandrel.
Bullets seated and firm in the case necks one moment, loose and sliding out the next.
Noticed that a few bullet points weren't standing at the same level as the majority when the loaded rounds were put together in a box - they were pretty loose and could be spun around with your fingers, too.
This wasn't a case of varying neck thicknesses, as they were all FLSized then dilated with a mandrel.
irishlad
Contributing Member
Yes I do. I have a Wilson case gauge for every caliber because of him(use them too). He was a fan of Little Dandy powder measures too. As am I.
BushMaster-15
member
I'm Not looking forward to any of yours or MY transfers . There are several persons I'd Help transfer but Not on this forum that I'm ware of .
Discussions are GOOD for everyone ,some of us older folks FORGET from time to time . Then again some of us REMEMBER past experiences and hopefully relate those in a helpful way . I've yet to see any 100% correct reloading manual and it certainly isn't etched in stone .
As I said earlier I have an inordinate amount of Dies ,mainly because of experimental coatings and Many can't be undone yet function better than New ,so they get USED . ALL I'm saying is in MY particular experience once I realized the actual PROBLEM with MY 7.62x51mm LC machine gun cases ; I was able to rectify it without a SB Die . I had one Hell of a Time Resizing them and SB dies would have just compounded the problem ,as in Stuck Cases . I DIDN'T have to grind a shell holder ,as I DON'T use them but getting " ALL " the Play out of the press was CRITICAL . Bingo Die screwed in bottomed out ,sized the .200" line within spec and set shoulder back Nicely . MY problem solved ,as I also was having NO GO loads . M14's 99.9% fed NO problem but MY AR-10 in .308 I assembled was much tighter tolerance .
I will also admit sometimes because of Military hardware being worn ,surplus cases get oversized ,especially after sustained fire Metal grows under heat . So the 90-180 270 resizing DOES HELP get cases back within spec . I have some which were are Hopeless and NO SB die can get them back ; I've tried ,so I Crushed em
So rather than compressing MY LC cases anymore , I simply segregated those cases which were smaller to begin with and kept them for the AR10 . In MY case I DON'T use any of that stuff for home defense purposes ,so all ammo universal isn't important to Me .
Certainly understand where it could be to someone else .
IF I need accurate sustainable 0-500 Yd. fire power , I'd run anyone of My AR15's and IF something is out further 6.5CM and IF it's WAY WAY out and needs to go away ; .338 LM . However as we all know 99.6% of home defense is inside 12 Yards ,so Hall sweeper and 9mm pretty well covers the Wife's and MY 6
Discussions are GOOD for everyone ,some of us older folks FORGET from time to time . Then again some of us REMEMBER past experiences and hopefully relate those in a helpful way . I've yet to see any 100% correct reloading manual and it certainly isn't etched in stone .
As I said earlier I have an inordinate amount of Dies ,mainly because of experimental coatings and Many can't be undone yet function better than New ,so they get USED . ALL I'm saying is in MY particular experience once I realized the actual PROBLEM with MY 7.62x51mm LC machine gun cases ; I was able to rectify it without a SB Die . I had one Hell of a Time Resizing them and SB dies would have just compounded the problem ,as in Stuck Cases . I DIDN'T have to grind a shell holder ,as I DON'T use them but getting " ALL " the Play out of the press was CRITICAL . Bingo Die screwed in bottomed out ,sized the .200" line within spec and set shoulder back Nicely . MY problem solved ,as I also was having NO GO loads . M14's 99.9% fed NO problem but MY AR-10 in .308 I assembled was much tighter tolerance .
I will also admit sometimes because of Military hardware being worn ,surplus cases get oversized ,especially after sustained fire Metal grows under heat . So the 90-180 270 resizing DOES HELP get cases back within spec . I have some which were are Hopeless and NO SB die can get them back ; I've tried ,so I Crushed em
So rather than compressing MY LC cases anymore , I simply segregated those cases which were smaller to begin with and kept them for the AR10 . In MY case I DON'T use any of that stuff for home defense purposes ,so all ammo universal isn't important to Me .
Certainly understand where it could be to someone else .
IF I need accurate sustainable 0-500 Yd. fire power , I'd run anyone of My AR15's and IF something is out further 6.5CM and IF it's WAY WAY out and needs to go away ; .338 LM . However as we all know 99.6% of home defense is inside 12 Yards ,so Hall sweeper and 9mm pretty well covers the Wife's and MY 6
AJC1
Member
I've never rotated cases and believe dwell time in the die is a factor. My process has the case in the die about a minute while I wipe down and verify the previous case. Absolutely more than one way to skin a tree chicken for soup and dumplings...I'm Not looking forward to any of yours or MY transfers . There are several persons I'd Help transfer but Not on this forum that I'm ware of .
Discussions are GOOD for everyone ,some of us older folks FORGET from time to time . Then again some of us REMEMBER past experiences and hopefully relate those in a helpful way . I've yet to see any 100% correct reloading manual and it certainly isn't etched in stone .
As I said earlier I have an inordinate amount of Dies ,mainly because of experimental coatings and Many can't be undone yet function better than New ,so they get USED . ALL I'm saying is in MY particular experience once I realized the actual PROBLEM with MY 7.62x51mm LC machine gun cases ; I was able to rectify it without a SB Die . I had one Hell of a Time Resizing them and SB dies would have just compounded the problem ,as in Stuck Cases . I DIDN'T have to grind a shell holder ,as I DON'T use them but getting " ALL " the Play out of the press was CRITICAL . Bingo Die screwed in bottomed out ,sized the .200" line within spec and set shoulder back Nicely . MY problem solved ,as I also was having NO GO loads . M14's 99.9% fed NO problem but MY AR-10 in .308 I assembled was much tighter tolerance .
I will also admit sometimes because of Military hardware being worn ,surplus cases get oversized ,especially after sustained fire Metal grows under heat . So the 90-180 270 resizing DOES HELP get cases back within spec . I have some which were are Hopeless and NO SB die can get them back ; I've tried ,so I Crushed em
So rather than compressing MY LC cases anymore , I simply segregated those cases which were smaller to begin with and kept them for the AR10 . In MY case I DON'T use any of that stuff for home defense purposes ,so all ammo universal isn't important to Me .
Certainly understand where it could be to someone else .
IF I need accurate sustainable 0-500 Yd. fire power , I'd run anyone of My AR15's and IF something is out further 6.5CM and IF it's WAY WAY out and needs to go away ; .338 LM . However as we all know 99.6% of home defense is inside 12 Yards ,so Hall sweeper and 9mm pretty well covers the Wife's and MY 6
redcon1
member
The answer is yes.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Speaking for myself and only myself. I have SB die sets in .308 Winchester and .223 Remington. I also have match die sets for the same two cartridges. All of them sit on a shelf pretty much new since I have never used them.
I load for a SA M1A match about 30 years old, an early AR10T Armalite with a custom barrel and chamber and my modified Remington 700 which I built up. When I resize my brass for the M1A and bolt gun knowing my rifle headspace dimensions I resize to 1.630" using everyday RCBS dies. They chamber fine and shoot just fine. I have never had the need to use any of my SB or match dies. Today I only have access to a 200 yard range and at my age I am happy with that. My advice would be try with starting with just standard full length sizing dies and trim after sizing. I trim to 2.005". I like the Sierra 168 grain and 150 grain match bullets and my powder varies but AA 2495 works well for me. I use a RCBS Precision Mike to measure my cases.
Anyway all said and done to answer your question I would not even begin to worry about SB dies unless you have a need. If you can size and trim and the unloaded brass chambers you should be fine. Additionally with a new rifle and chamber cut to specifications you should do fine. Looking back 20 or 30 years I don't even remember SB dies being around? Enjoy the rifle.
Least I forget I saw reference to Mr. Guffy. Been awhile since he has visited here or another few forums I am active in where he was a member. No clue where he went. If you wanted to trip his trigger just mention "bumping" a case shoulder back or a cartridge having a headspace dimension.
Ron
BushMaster-15
member
I'll concede whatever it takes to get your cases back to re-loadable dimensions is what one must do .
As I've stated in the reloading section a few times ,I wear a nitrile glove as I use Boeshield T9 lube and that gloved hand is lubed purposely ,so as to rotate blown out MG cases . It allows Me to kind of continuously lube said cases as I shove them up the Die . I've tried every which way from 7 Sundays and haven't found any better method ,so as Not to stick cases in the Dies .
Supposedly once a cold brass case is sized whether for a fraction of a second or an hour ,it's initial spring back dimension DOESN'T change .
I read that somewhere in a metallurgist analogy of cartridge reloading ,when they were referring to diameter ; Of course we all know they will grow or stretch in length ,as the brass MUST MOVE somewhere . I've NEVER been able to get a fired case back too factory spec ,the Dies just aren't the same as manufacturers .
As I've stated in the reloading section a few times ,I wear a nitrile glove as I use Boeshield T9 lube and that gloved hand is lubed purposely ,so as to rotate blown out MG cases . It allows Me to kind of continuously lube said cases as I shove them up the Die . I've tried every which way from 7 Sundays and haven't found any better method ,so as Not to stick cases in the Dies .
Supposedly once a cold brass case is sized whether for a fraction of a second or an hour ,it's initial spring back dimension DOESN'T change .
I read that somewhere in a metallurgist analogy of cartridge reloading ,when they were referring to diameter ; Of course we all know they will grow or stretch in length ,as the brass MUST MOVE somewhere . I've NEVER been able to get a fired case back too factory spec ,the Dies just aren't the same as manufacturers .
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
Loaded 20 rounds and they won't chamber. Marked the bullet with a Sharpie to make sure the bullets weren't dead-heading against the lands and they weren't. Cycled 4 sized cases with no bullet and they won't chamber either. One case stuck so tight I had use a nylon hammer to tap the lever on the operating rod to break it loose. Just ordered a small base die and a Sheridan Slotted case gauge. M1A's aren't cheep and no more hammering for me.
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
That's unusual but not unheard of. I have sized once fired machine gun brass through my standard RCBS dies and taken the brass from a 1.640" base to shoulder datum back to 1.630" and the stuff chambers fine in my M1A. We will see what the SB dies give you and hopefully they will work for you. The Sheridan gauge is a good investment.
Ron
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
The rounds were new factory ammo that cycled 100%. Once fired and FL resized they will no longer chamber in my rifle. Aggravating.
Soonerpesek
Member
I guess I would be befuddled also...
Factory ammo, fired in your gun (that would make it "fireformed") ......correct...?
Cycled 100% you stated.
Then FL sized and now won't chamber......??
Have you used this die before........is it a bad size die...?........Is it set correctly and not crunching the shoulder a bit,,,?
I am interested (just as you are) in finding the solution.....
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
It's a new Redding FL sizing die used for the first time. It is adjusted properly. Maybe a bad chamber, maybe a bad FL die. Waiting on the case gauge to determine.
troy fairweather
Member
Perhaps the neck tension was to much and pushed the shoulder/body out preventing them from chambering. Or even if the seating die was to far down and deformed the sized brass some.
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
Even once fired (in my gun) and FL resized without a bullet they won't chamber. A case without a bullet is the one that made me break out the hammer.
AJC1
Member
What is your shoulder measurement before and after. Seems silly are you sizing them longer but not pushing the shoulder back?
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
I have no way of measuring the shoulder (yet).
AJC1
Member
Use a 40 cal case
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
And do what with it? If I had one.
troy fairweather
Member
Possible you are sizing the case body making the case grow in length and headspace,
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
Case length is within spec. Waiting on a case gauge for determining headspace rather than using my M1A and a hammer as the gauge.
sevt_chevelle
Member
Use it with your calipers to determine if your pushing the shoulder back.
AJC1
Member
Install it over the neck with the primer removed and measure case base to case base. Compare measurements to a case that will chamber to one you sized.
OP
OP
nettlle
Contributing Member
Don't have any 40 cal cases. Hopefully the Sheridan Case Gauge will come this week.
AJC1
Member
Got a 10mm in your pile, same same
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