Red Dots-Who Wears Them On Their EDC Pistols?

bigger hammer · Oct 3, 2022

WrongHanded said:
Funny, that's exactly how every pistol I own (all with iron sights) works too. It's almost like I spent time to build muscle memory so that I could present a handgun and have the sights line up with a target. What's really shocking [sarcasm] is that at closer distances, I can do it one handed without looking at either the target or the gun as I bringing it up. And yet, when I look, the sights line up with the target.

First, the concept of "muscle memory" is a non sequitur. There is no such thing. Muscles do not have memory. Memory ONLY resides in the brain.

Second, I understand the concept of muscle memory, but it's flawed. As long as you are standing on a relatively flat, level surface, you'll be able to bring your gun up and align the sights with the target. But if you are ever on uneven ground, stairs large rocks, or the like, your sights will not align as well as when you are on even ground. The body can't line up the same way when you're on uneven ground, as when you're on even ground. And so, since your body isn't in the same place as when you train, your sights may not come to you eye, properly aligned.

That's why the best technique for the RDS DOES NOT rely on it. Instead, it's a combination of proprioception and a technique that brings the dot into the window and onto the target.

WrongHanded said:
But I didn't develop that muscle memory overnight.

Fact is, you NEVER "develop[ed] that muscle memory." Your brain remembers approximately where your body is in space, but change the footing, which makes the body realign to keep balance, and it goes out the window.

I've heard this disinformation many times and have demonstrated to those who have said it, that it does not work, except in the limited circumstances where one is on the same sort of footing as when they trained. Change the surface and, all of a sudden, they're having trouble either finding their sights or putting them on target.

WrongHanded said:
And I'm sure I could do it with red dots on all my guns if I put in the time and effort.

More than likely you'd get a similar result to what you have now with irons. But if you learned the proper technique YOU WOULD have it virtually "overnight." it's not beyond you, it's just that your mind is closed.

SwampWolf · Oct 3, 2022

JEBruns said:
But these days, I can either see the target clearly or the iron sights, but not both.

That's always the case when using any kind of iron sights, be it on a handgun or a rifle. It's impossible for the human eye to bring the target and the sight into focus at the same instant, which is why those of us who cut our teeth in Bullseye competition learned early on to focus on the sights (and especially the front sight) and concede to living with and ignoring an out-of-focus target.

Some have made the argument that the older you get, the more your vision is compromised and the more you might benefit from an MRD sight. However, the other side of the coin is that the older we get and the more shooting we have done, the harder it is to abandon focusing on the front sight when shooting quickly at close range and learning to chase down a red dot when trying to connect it to the target.

Getting past the added bulk, weight and expense disadvantages the MRD brings with it when using a typical micro-compact EDC pistol, in my albeit limited experience with shooting a red dot equipped pistol, there is, like most anything else worth doing, a learning curve to getting proficient with it. And the older you get and the more regimented you are to relying on the front sight when engaging a target in the fastest time possible, that learning curve is particularly steep and requires much time and many bullets (dry-firing is an option but will never be a viable alternative to popping primers) to make the transition from irons to red dots. And, speaking solely for myself, because I'm living in the shadow of being eighty years old; I'm too old to squander what's left of my time on earth and too cheap to invest in "training" ammunition to make me proficient at running down a red dot when finding my front sight in a hurry works just fine.

I have enjoyed reading the pros and cons of using red dots opinions in this thread and think both sides of the issue have made some very valid and interesting points of view. Thanks to all.

WrongHanded · Oct 3, 2022

bigger hammer said:
No, not at all. In fact, I realize that you're one of those folks who have a closed mind and aren't willing to try this new thing. You've made up your mind without ever trying the tool. Without ever giving it a fair chance. That affects me, not at all. In these discussions, particularly this one about RDSs, this OFTEN happens. I never hope to change the mind of someone like you, whose mind is closed. I write for those who HAVE NOT made up their minds, folks on the fence.

Please show us a post of mine where I've said that this is "super difficult." Please cite the post number so we can all go look at it. But it IS FAR EASIER to put a dot on something than it is to first "line up a front sight and a rear sight" and then to put the combination on something.

Reality tells us, based on competition scores, that putting a red dot on something IS faster AND easier than lining up sights on that same object. If it wasn't, those folks wouldn't have their own class in the competition world. The people who make the rules have noticed that folks who use RDSs consistently score higher than people with iron sights. In a gunfight that may mean the difference between living or not. Between coming out "whole" or coming out maimed for life. We've both made our choices.

OBVIOUSLY, the RDS is the faster, better choice. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a separate class in competition for those who are using RDSs.

Also OBVIOUSLY if you're ever tried a RDS you didn't get professional training. I'd guess that someone invited you to try their pistol that had one, and not having any instruction, you had difficulty locating the dot. But those of us who had the sense to seek training from a pro learned within minutes how to do it. Training enough to make it second nature took some time, but nowhere near the time that it took to learn to use iron sights quickly.

Just how would that happen in the completely closed environment (often watertight, up to 30' depths) of an enclosed emitter?

Now you're drifting into nonsense, perhaps due to a lack of knowledge and/or experience with the tools. The same movement, wiping the "clear lens" with a finger will clear the RDS, just as it will with irons.

True. But they can be damaged and broken. I've already described my personal experience of damaging both a front and a rear sight, such that they were unusable.

AND the batteries on an RMR are good for thousands of hours. The factory says 17,000 hours at the #4 setting. How they are stored dictates how often the battery will need to be replaced. Leaving them on high settings will shorten battery life, as one should expect. The RMR that I use, the Type 2, 07 model, has a setting that allows for the sight to read the ambient light and then set the dot to an appropriate brightness setting. If that gun is stored in the dark, then the battery will last far longer than on a fixed high setting. I change mine out about every 9 months.

I'll disagree. That may be the case with most shooters who read this. But for the guy who doesn't closely check his gear, it probably won't be discovered. I'd guess, that based on my decades of firearms instruction, I have a better grasp on how and what new shooters thinks and does, than you do.

Are you suggesting that I don't have "a rational mind" because we differ on this? It seems that since you have never given a fair chance to tool that OBVIOUSLY provides many advantages in both sport and business (meaning self‒defense) situations, that YOU are the one who's wanting here. You are talking theory and opinions and I'm talking facts.

I have no interest in "convincing" you of anything. Your mind is made up and you aren't interested in the FACTS, that I've been talking about since we started.

The average citizen (especially a beginner shooter) will discover that shooting is FAR easier than he thought. He'll find that his speed AND accuracy have taken quantum leaps.

I asked you to show us some failures of RDSs very early in our exchange. I'm still waiting. There have probably been thousands of YouTube videos made testing the various RDSs. You'd think that there would have been lots of failures. But you've not shown us even one! Please back up your comments about these failures with some facts.

But since you keep bringing up "the potential for failure," my rear sight failure happened while I was qualifying for my LEA. I had to go to my back‒up gun to complete the evolution. My front sight failure happened during a night shooting class, putting me into the same situation with the same solution, a back‒up gun. Fortunately I had another complete back‒up gun/light/RDS for the rest of the class. There was no way to repair either breakage without a well‒lit work bench, some spare parts, and some tools. Had it been my RDS that had failed, I'd just have transitioned to the irons and continued.

It seems that you have forgotten that these systems are usually set up to keep the iron sights, albeit a taller set so they can "see" over the RDS, so that in the event of a failure of the RDS, they can still be used. All it takes is to refocus on the sights and go to work. If you had a failure with irons, like the ones that that I've experienced, you'd be left with a broken sight system, that you may or may not be able to compensate for.

There is no backup for your iron sights, is there? Let's see, which failure would be more catastrophic for the CCW carrier in the event that he needed his gun to save his life?

Please don't try to twist my words. I've NEVER said that one must "shoot enough to be a competition level shooter" in order to enjoy the benefits of a RDS. If you think I have, please cite that post and quote it in your next reply.

It's not just the "competition level shooter" who will discover these advantages, but it's also the beginner and most in‒betweeners too. We run hundreds of people through our classes every year. I always make it a point at the end of a class to ask if anyone wants to shoot my RDS equipped gun. Those who take me up on it, always say something like, "Why didn't you tell me how easy this was?" Or, "WOW! I like this thing!." I don't recall even one student who didn't think it was BOTH faster and more accurate. The only thing that makes them hesitate is the cost of admission.

Oh jeez! I can see this really is a big deal to you.

I've tried an RDS before. I did not get professional training. I didn't get professional training for iron sights either. It simply does not make sense to me on a pistol intended for defensive use. I'm fast and accurate enough for my liking. If I didn't think I was, I would train more. In fact that used to be the case, so I did train more. But I don't need to try and make my pistol into a rifle.

I simply have no desire to invest in a new system that will become useless if, for example, I fall over in the snow with it in my hand, and get it covered in snow that I cannot remove immediately. If the gun is above freezing because it was concealed close to the body, and the snow were below freezing (which is typically is), unless you don't know what snow is like, you must surely understand that the whole sight would be covered on both sides. This is actually a very real concern for anyone who deals with snow during winter. And yes, irons can be cleaned off well enough with the brush of a hand.

An RDS might be better on a square range, and better in competition, and ever better in FoF drills. But people have been making iron sights work for them just fine up until now. And irons aren't made useless by winter conditions, or dust particles on the emitter, or being set to the wrong power setting, etc etc. Have you tested your RDS to see what happens if you hold it out in the rain? If water gets in the wrong place, does the dot projection change? Even if it doesn't on your particular model, does it happen on others? The more complicated the technology, the more ways it can go wrong.

WrongHanded · Oct 3, 2022

bigger hammer said:
First, the concept of "muscle memory" is a non sequitur. There is no such thing. Muscles do not have memory. Memory ONLY resides in the brain.

Second, I understand the concept of muscle memory, but it's flawed. As long as you are standing on a relatively flat, level surface, you'll be able to bring your gun up and align the sights with the target. But if you are ever on uneven ground, stairs large rocks, or the like, your sights will not align as well as when you are on even ground. The body can't line up the same way when you're on uneven ground, as when you're on even ground. And so, since your body isn't in the same place as when you train, your sights may not come to you eye, properly aligned.

That's why the best technique for the RDS DOES NOT rely on it. Instead, it's a combination of proprioception and a technique that brings the dot into the window and onto the target.

Fact is, you NEVER "develop[ed] that muscle memory." Your brain remembers approximately where your body is in space, but change the footing, which makes the body realign to keep balance, and it goes out the window.

I've heard this disinformation many times and have demonstrated to those who have said it, that it does not work, except in the limited circumstances where one is on the same sort of footing as when they trained. Change the surface and, all of a sudden, they're having trouble either finding their sights or putting them on target.

More than likely you'd get a similar result to what you have now with irons. But if you learned the proper technique YOU WOULD have it virtually "overnight." it's not beyond you, it's just that your mind is closed.

We all know what "muscle memory" means. No need to be pedantic.

As far as being on uneven surfaces, etc. you don't know what my dry fire practice is like, so you might want to hold your horses on making those kind of assumptions. Or perhaps just try it for yourself. During your normal dry fire routine, pick a target somewhere not directly in front of you (turn and face a different direction, or whatever works). Look at it, look away, point your gun, check your sight alignment. Keep repeating until things line up. It's a simple extension of Bill Jordan's hip fire technique, using the weight of the gun to feel where the muzzle is pointing.

CoalTrain49 · Oct 3, 2022

I have dots on a MkII and a 625. I know how they work. I also know how traditional sights (no batteries needed) work. I have those on my EDC and a few range pistols and revolvers.

For encounters at less than 15 yds dots are not needed. If one chooses their EDC pistol/revolver carefully, and train using it, you don't need a dot on a SD firearm. Any SD firearm. That includes shotguns and rifles. I have a vast amount of experience with rifles and shotguns without dots. They just simply aren't needed for SD at close quarter engagements.

Many practiced shooters can shoot a nice 15 yd group with conventional sights using just about any firearm with enough practice.

Dots will help a new shooter understand that trigger control is paramount. They're a very good training tool. Once trigger control is mastered they aren't needed for an SD firearm.

I know that goes against modern marketing and you-need-to-buy-this to survive, but it's just the siren call of marketing and technology.

westernrover · Oct 3, 2022

I've been using an Trijicon SRO on my EDC handgun for the last 3+ years. I've also done three multi-day classes, including a 3-day red-dot specific class, at those out-of-state academies with the SRO. I did two other classes/schools without the red dot in the same time frame. My performance with the dot was consistently better than with open sights, not just throughout the classes, but also in careful back-to-back testing under varying conditions, distances, positions, and target types.

Dot failure does not factor into my choice. I won't use BUIS either. I believe careful consideration should be made before handicapping the performance of functional equipment for a "what if" scenario. Any number of things can go wrong, but that doesn't mean we need to have redundant triggers and barrels on the same gun. I chose the SRO over the RMR even though the evidence is the SRO is likely to crack when dropped -- because the sight picture is substantially superior. In the unlikely event that I were to drop it, crack it, and then still need it afterward, it's not like the gun is unusable. I've practiced with front occlusions, rear occlusions, and diode occlusions/failures. I'm sure a lot of people don't consider that the front sight on the handgun can just break off too.

I will freely admit that the dot is a crutch. With the dot and the right grip, sight alignment is much easier than with the notch and blade. The dot also allows target focus. I have presbyopia, so sharp front sight focus is not even possible. Even with these $500 progressive lenses I just got, I have to look down my nose to focus the front sight, and there's no guarantee my glasses will be on or stay on when I need them.

I like that I can hit stuff at 80 yards with the dot -- like clay pigeons. I'm sure a lot of people would balk at 80 yard shots for some kind of defensive scenario. I don't care. Hitting stuff is better than not hitting whatever the distance is.

westernrover · Oct 3, 2022

I mentioned that the dot is a crutch -- and I like that. I agree with CoalTrain above that it can be like a training tool because it sets aside the need to use the sights until trigger control and other things are learned. That's how I've been doing it.

Recently, I figured out how to use traditional sights. I took a j-frame out that I was thinking of selling because I don't like it. I wanted to use it one more time before I made up my mind. It has Trijicon Novak-style night sites on it. I shot an IDPA target weak-hand only, strong-hand only, and from different positions standing, crouching and behind cover, with both hands at 7, 10, and 15 yards. The one reason I was thinking of keeping it was to use it in IDPA BUG division, because none of my other guns are IDPA legal. I put over 65 shots in the C zone and nothing landed outside it. I put 5 shots through the same hole at 15 yards. I'm still selling it though. I was shooting Magnums and that gun stung after shooting that much. It even ripped the skin on the web of my thumb. It's too small and I don't like the 11 pound trigger, but those sights work great even on that 2.125" barrel.

I still like long barrels best, and even on my red-dot equipped guns where sight radius doesn't matter, I like a 5" or 6" barrel. I had the Trijicon on a 5" gun and that was my EDC for the last 3 years. They've been great. I'm thinking of selling them both now.

Once I realized how to use the sights, I tried it with my 3" L-frame revolver. It's got a black ramp front sight that I don't like as much as the partridge type on the j. But I put 6 shots through the same hole at 15 yards in 8 seconds. I whiffed the 7th shot about an inch away - bad follow-through. Before, I thought I understood how to use traditional sights, but I was able to get far more precision with the dot. Now I understand how to get precision with clunky open sights. There's a difference between knowing how to use them, and knowing how to get precision from them. I don't know how to explain it, especially because I can't even focus on the front sight without +2.00 readers (which I do not shoot with).

I can tell you that I adopted the red dot when I was looking for ways to cheat. It absolutely works. Is it necessary? Not if you can win without cheating.

CoalTrain49 · Oct 3, 2022

Dots are here to stay on SD pistols like scopes on rifles in the 70's. No going back. If you can learn to shoot using those then use them. That's the bottom line. Many new shooters prefer them. I can't say it's a bad thing.

westernrover · Oct 4, 2022

I agree they're here to stay and that they will become as common as scopes on hunting rifles. I think they will get better than we have now. I think they'll find ways to get the dots sharper, and the glass clearer. Now the glass has a blue tinting to make the led reflect. The reflex is so much simpler than a holographic, and that's a good thing, but we maybe need some materials technology to improve the view. We've already seen the housings advance substantially from big ol'e knobby things to getting them integrated into the slides and fitting even the narrow 1" wide concealed carry pistols and co-witnessing with standard height sights (no more suppressor height co-witness). They've gotten more rugged too. I think we'll see housings shrink, windows become easier to look through, and more and more guns fitted with them from the factory in ways they integrate and work with the particular gun model and not just as an aftermarket add-on. I could argue that rifle scopes might have gone that way too with stuff like the Swarovski SR rail that didn't catch-on, but maybe should have because the rings are pretty clunky.

starling · Oct 4, 2022

CoalTrain49 said:
Dots are here to stay on SD pistols like scopes on rifles in the 70's. No going back. If you can learn to shoot using those then use them. That's the bottom line. Many new shooters prefer them. I can't say it's a bad thing.

Time will tell. Whatever gets people better at hitting the target as nobody likes stray bullets just flying around. Nice to see them getting fairly durble when mounted on a slide. I would like to see some being mounted further up maybe to the front sight position and a little lower in profile. Kind of get them more out of the way. As of right now they are also just add ons. No reason there cant be a purpose built pistol or slide for use in these. They all need to be fully enclosed IMO as well. The new Aimpoint is getting it right but its HUGE on a pistol.

Of course the lowest profile of all is going to just be a dot on the target so at that point you are full circle back to a laser that is cosighted with your iron sights or Hi Viz front sights.

As big as the Aimpoint is for a carry pistol it might as well include a camera to record the event. The durability looks impressive though.

JEBruns · Oct 4, 2022

SwampWolf said:
That's always the case when using any kind of iron sights, be it on a handgun or a rifle. It's impossible for the human eye to bring the target and the sight into focus,

While that is true, both sights and target are much more in focus at 20-20 than they are with older eyes. I can still shoot with iron sights, but it involves a lot of squinting and a lot of time to be accurate these days. Red dots clean those issues up for me.

And the older you get and the more regimented you are to relying on the front sight when engaging a target in the fastest time possible, that learning curve is particularly steep and requires much time and many bullets (dry-firing is an option but will never be a viable alternative to popping primers) to make the transition from irons to red dots.

Understood. But guns that have suppressor height irons allow you to still get on the front sight first. That's what I do when practicing SD stuff with mine. The main reason for me doing that is not that I'm set in my ways, it's in case I have an issue with the RDS. If it fails for some reason, I'm already set up for success. If not, I automatically transition to it.

zdc1775 · Oct 4, 2022

I was against the idea of optic on a defensive pistol for several years but saw their advantage on range or competition pistols. But in the last year or so I started seeing the possible advantages so I decided to buy an MOS Glock and give it a try. I chose the Glock for the fact that I truly hate shooting Glock pistols due to the trigger and ergonomics so it would really be more of a test to see if I liked the dot not the pistol and that once that decision was made I could sell the gun quickly for about the same amount I paid for it.

After a few hundred "rounds" of dry-fire draw and fire drills with the dot I decided to take it to the range and see how it stacked up with my custom duty/competition M&P that I have around 25,000 rounds through. First outing, shooting a 6" target at seven yards, I averaged 2.1 draw and fire with the Glock and 1.8 with the M&P but shooting a B8 target at 25 yards I shot a 96 with the Glock compared to 86 with the M&P. That encouraged me to spend another few months shooting the Glock, around 1,000 rounds, and I ended up with my first round averaging 1.7. Borrowed a friends M&P with optic just to make sure that it wasn't a fluke coincidence and the M&P with a dot averaged 1.6 for a draw and fire.

So I pulled the dot off the Glock and sold it, then bought a Canik with optic. First time shooting it and I was already averaging 1.6 and now have gotten that to around 1.4. That alone made my decision for me so I have ordered a replacement carry pistol, swapping from a non OSP Hellcat to a Hellcat Pro, that I could mount an optic on. And now I am debating either sending the M&P off to be milled or buying another optic ready "duty" gun.

So I guess you could say that I'm all in on pistol optics now.

Oh, and I guess that I should add that I am far from a beginner at shooting a handgun since when I was actively competing in IDPA I was in the master class in SSP, ESP, and CDP, but in fairness I've been out of practice for a few years now so I am no longer quite at that level.

bigger hammer · Oct 4, 2022

SwampWolf said:
… Some have made the argument that the older you get, the more your vision is compromised and the more you might benefit from an MRD sight. However, the other side of the coin is that the older we get and the more shooting we do the harder it is to abandon focusing on the front sight when shooting quickly at close range and learning to chase down a red dot when trying to connect it to the target.

First when a person has been properly trained there is no "chas[ing] down a red dot." The act of presenting the gun, bringing it onto the threat, brings the dot into the window.

Second, It's not that hard a transition. I'm nearly as old as you are. I started shooting when I was 12. While I never shot Bullseye, I competed in IPSC, in the SWPL, and IDPA. That's a healthy amount of time spent concentrating on my front sight. After I mounted my RDS I spent several days fooling around with it, as you say "chasing down a red dot …" I was unable to find it consistently despite trying everything I knew as a firearms instructor. Then I realized that with all the folks trying these devices and having success, that I just wasn't going to figure it out by myself. So I called up a pro friend who had lots of experience in teaching this, and he gave me the scoop. I was amazed that it was so easy. Since then I've probably fired about 1,500 rounds through both of my RDS equipped guns, and done many more thousands of dry fire draws, without a single failure to find the dot. It's 'just there' every time, without any "chasing" or "hunting."

SwampWolf said:
Getting past the added bulk, weight and expense disadvantages the MRD brings with it

All good arguments against the tool. The top models are pretty darn expensive. Unless you've got one of the guns that allows for the removal of a plate and the replacement of it with a RDS, you have to have your gun machined to accept it. Another expense. There is added bulk and weight, but neither have been an issue for me. Understandable, since I'm carrying a full size 2011, with a spare standard capacity mag, often with a WML. I get that someone who carries a smaller gun may feel the added weight.

SwampWolf said:
when using a typical micro-compact EDC pistol, in my albeit limited experience with shooting a red dot equipped pistol, there is, like most anything else worth doing, a learning curve to getting proficient with it. And the older you get and the more regimented you are to relying on the front sight when engaging a target in the fastest time possible, that learning curve is particularly steep and requires much time and many bullets (dry-firing is an option but will never be a viable alternative to popping primers) to make the transition from irons to red dots.

I thought that it would take quite some time to make this transition, but I had the added push that my eyes quit working well and finding the right spot on my graduated trifocal lenses for the front sight to be in focus was taking FOREVER! You'll find that the focus on the front sight that you've spent decades developing will stand you in good stead when making the transition. It's an integral part of finding the dot.

When I found the right instructor, I was amazed at how easy finding the dot actually was, and how quickly I adapted to it. The learning curve, with professional training is not nearly as steep as you might imagine. I talked my brother through it on the phone. Admittedly, it did take a couple of calls.

SwampWolf said:
And, speaking solely for myself, I'm living in the shadow of being eighty years old; too old to squander what's left of my time on earth and too cheap to invest in "training" ammunition to make me proficient at running down a red dot when finding my front sight in a hurry will work just fine.

I don't know that doing something that will make you faster and more accurate should be should be labeled as "squandering … [your] time." If you CCW, it might give you the edge in an armed confrontation and enable you to survive. Ditto for a break-in at your home. And if you're "too cheap to invest in 'training' ammunition" you could always do what I did. Develop the technique in dry fire and then test it with live fire. You could get that done with a box of ammo. We recommend to our students that 90% of their training time should be spent in dry fire. As to finding your "front sight in a hurry, …" without a single exception, every one of our students has increased his 'first shot' speed with the RDS. That occurred IN THE CLASS and without any other training or practice.

Perhaps it’s my previously mentioned 'worst case scenario' an active shooter in a mall, that pushed me towards the RDS. I know that the chances of it happening to me are infinitesimally small, but after spending three decades "Hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst," I want to be prepared if that scenario should happen. And along the way, I'm faster and more accurate for all of my shooting.

I'm sorry to be such a fan boy of RDSs. But they gave me back the ability to shoot fast and accurately that glasses took away. AND they improved my speed and accuracy at all distances. I wish I'd found them earlier.

bigger hammer · Oct 4, 2022

WrongHanded said:
Oh jeez! I can see this really is a big deal to you.

Seems as if it's just as "big [a] deal to you."

WrongHanded said:
I've tried an RDS before. I did not get professional training.

As I thought. NO WONDER, you had issues locating the dot.

WrongHanded said:
I didn't get professional training for iron sights either.

Not sure why you bother to tell us this. RDSs are a relatively new tool that requires new skills. You tried to apply OLD SKILLS to a new tool. I'm not surprised at your failure. It's fairly common. I fell prey to it myself, but I realized the problem. You didn't. And so you have a poorly informed opinion of what RDS are, and how they're best utilized.

WrongHanded said:
It simply does not make sense to me on a pistol intended for defensive use. I'm fast and accurate enough for my liking.

If you're happy where you are, so am I. Meanwhile others who try the RDS and DO get professional help are getting faster and more accurate. But you do you.

WrongHanded said:
If I didn't think I was, I would train more.

As the competition world has shown us, you couldn't train to be better than someone of equal skill but who is using a RDS.

WrongHanded said:
But I don't need to try and make my pistol into a rifle.

ROFL. You think that putting a RDS on a handgun makes it into a rifle?

WrongHanded said:
I simply have no desire to invest in a new system that will become useless if, for example, I fall over in the snow with it in my hand, and get it covered in snow that I cannot remove immediately.

Now you're getting redundant. The same problem exists with iron sights AS I'VE SAID.

WrongHanded said:
If the gun is above freezing because it was concealed close to the body, and the snow were below freezing (which is typically is), unless you don't know what snow is like, you must surely understand that the whole sight would be covered on both sides. This is actually a very real concern for anyone who deals with snow during winter. And yes, irons can be cleaned off well enough with the brush of a hand.

So can a RDS. Oddly, with all the problems you keep redundantly pointing out, many LEAs are issuing guns equipped with RDS to their officers. Many more LEAs are permitting their officers to carry them, if purchased at their own expense, if they go through a special RDS training program. They, unlike you, realize that many new tools need professional training to learn to use.

WrongHanded said:
An RDS might be better on a square range, and better in competition, and ever better in FoF drills. But people have been making iron sights work for them just fine up until now.

You're factually wrong. MANY people have discovered that, as they age, their vision changes, making it impossible for them to see their front sight clearly. The RDS makes that issue moot. AND if the gun is used for self‒defense, it allows the defender to focus on the threat, not to have to transition to the front sight should deadly force be needed. It makes the shooting easier, faster, and more accurate, no matter how fast and accurate you already are. AND that focus on the threat makes it easier to tell when to stop shooting, because the threat is not blurry, due to focusing the eye on the front sight. I used to say that in a self‒defense situation I'd be able to tell if the threat had surrendered or was no longer a threat. But sometimes making this assessment in FOF training, especially in low light, was often difficult. Now it's easy.

WrongHanded said:
And irons aren't made useless by winter conditions,

Neither are RDSs.

WrongHanded said:
or dust particles on the emitter,

Simply blow across the emitter and the dust flies away.

WrongHanded said:
or being set to the wrong power setting, etc etc.

If that were to happen I have b/u iron sights immediately available. Isn't it odd how I keep answering the questions that your posts ask, even if they're not posted as questions but, at the same time, you completely avoid my simple and direct questions.

Let's try again. What if you brought up your gun in a self‒defense situation, say an assailant at 50 yards, and your front sight was completely missing? What if your rear sight blade had broken or disappeared?

WrongHanded said:
Have you tested your RDS to see what happens if you hold it out in the rain?

Nope, not rain, just water from the hose. I live in a near desert, I wasn't going to wait for rain to appear to test this. Here's what happens. It gets wet.

WrongHanded said:
If water gets in the wrong place, does the dot projection change? Even if it doesn't on your particular model, does it happen on others? The more complicated the technology, the more ways it can go wrong.

My dot didn't move. I haven't tested other brands or models on this.

WrongHanded said:
We all know what "muscle memory" means. No need to be pedantic.

I doubt that "we all know" this. I'm confident that there are many noobies on this forum who thought that muscle memory was a real thing. I've had this same discussion in person in our classes.

WrongHanded said:
As far as being on uneven surfaces, etc. you don't know what my dry fire practice is like, so you might want to hold your horses on making those kind of assumptions.

Well I know, because you just told us that you tried a new (to you) technology without consulting any professional who would have been able to tell/show you to find the dot. So I'm left to reasonably assume that there are other holes in your training. That one was a gaping chasm!

WrongHanded said:
Or perhaps just try it for yourself. During your normal dry fire routine, pick a target somewhere not directly in front of you (turn and face a different direction, or whatever works). Look at it, look away, point your gun, check your sight alignment. Keep repeating until things line up. It's a simple extension of Bill Jordan's hip fire technique, using the weight of the gun to feel where the muzzle is pointing.

LOL. Oddly your advice does not address my comment. It had to do with how standing on uneven ground or something like stairs will upset the structure that you're relying on to bring your sights on target.

I any case, I'm a firearms instructor for a very busy shooting school on the west coast. We run hundreds of students though our classes every year. We offer classes on the handgun, rifle and SG. We offer beginner, intermediate and advanced instruction on all of those platforms. We have classes devoted to the RDS, shooting on the move, shooting from cover, low light, CCW, the 1911, double action revolver, active shooter response, building search and clearing, AIWB, and more. We run civilians, LE and military through our classes. What you describe is done in many of our classes.

And I attend several shooting schools taught by other instructors nearly every year. I've been through dozens of such drills. They're ALL easier with a RDS, not to mention that I'm faster and more accurate with the RDS.

bigger hammer · Oct 4, 2022

CoalTrain49 said:
I have dots on a MkII and a 625. I know how they work. I also know how traditional sights (no batteries needed) work. I have those on my EDC and a few range pistols and revolvers.

For encounters at less than 15 yds dots are not needed.

I'm sorry but this is too absolute for my taste. While no one needs a RDS, it sure would help if you had to deliver an accurate shot to the head of a target, even at "15 yds."

CoalTrain49 said:
If one chooses their EDC pistol/revolver carefully, and train using it, you don't need a dot on a SD firearm. Any SD firearm. That includes shotguns and rifles. I have a vast amount of experience with rifles and shotguns without dots. They just simply aren't needed for SD at close quarter engagements.

That may be the case for you, but I doubt it, since we've not had a single student, of hundreds, who have taken our RDS class fail to improve his speed and accuracy at all distances. In a self‒defense situation, speed and accuracy are essential, and the RDS improves both.

CoalTrain49 said:
Many practiced shooters can shoot a nice 15 yd group with conventional sights using just about any firearm with enough practice.

I don't know what "a nice 15 yd group" means to you. I want to be able to put every round into the head kill box on an IPSC target. And it has to be done against a clock. When you added time to the equation, many people will not be able to shoot your "nice" group. The RDS makes this easier and faster.

CoalTrain49 said:
Dots will help a new shooter understand that trigger control is paramount. They're a very good training tool. Once trigger control is mastered they aren't needed for an SD firearm.

If someone is going to spend the money to get a RDS, they'd be foolish not to use it. I'm not sure why some of you folk keep saying that a RDSs, "aren't needed." NO ONE has said that they are, making it pretty much a straw man argument, a logical fallacy.

CoalTrain49 said:
I know that goes against modern marketing and you-need-to-buy-this to survive, but it's just the siren call of marketing and technology.

I haven't seen or heard this "siren call." Can you link one please? How is advertising a RDS any different than advertising, oh, let's say, night sights or any other accessory that makes a shooter more efficient?

bigger hammer · Oct 4, 2022

westernrover said:
... I can tell you that I adopted the red dot when I was looking for ways to cheat. It absolutely works.

I think it's Clint Smith who says, "Always cheat, always win." There aren't any prizes for finishing second in a self‒defense situation.

westernrover said:
Is it necessary? Not if you can win without cheating.

The problem is that you don't know how good your opponent is. Even if you're as good as he is, he has an advantage because you'll be behind the curve, responding to what he's doing. You won't know if you can "win without cheating" until the dust settles. Best to have every reasonable advantage BEFORE the situation occurs, right?

DMW1116 · Oct 4, 2022

Trying them out on a couple pistols now. I have a Crimson Trace open reflex type site on a full size pistol and a Holosun tube style on a 22 target pistol. The target pistol is definitely slower and I'm not convinced I can shoot it better with the RDS. That's not the type of sight discussed here though. The CT is growing on me, though I've only been using it for about a month during my weekly range trips. It does co-witness with the iron sights, which is helpful for targeting speed. I don't know if I shoot better with it or not. I shoot another pistol with iron sights about as well as this one with the RDS, but have not yet tried either for speed in a serious fashion.

WrongHanded · Oct 4, 2022

bigger hammer said:
Seems as if it's just as "big [a] deal to you."

As I thought. NO WONDER, you had issues locating the dot.

Not sure why you bother to tell us this. RDSs are a relatively new tool that requires new skills. You tried to apply OLD SKILLS to a new tool. I'm not surprised at your failure. It's fairly common. I fell prey to it myself, but I realized the problem. You didn't. And so you have a poorly informed opinion of what RDS are, and how they're best utilized.

If you're happy where you are, so am I. Meanwhile others who try the RDS and DO get professional help are getting faster and more accurate. But you do you.

As the competition world has shown us, you couldn't train to be better than someone of equal skill but who is using a RDS.

ROFL. You think that putting a RDS on a handgun makes it into a rifle?

Now you're getting redundant. The same problem exists with iron sights AS I'VE SAID.

So can a RDS. Oddly, with all the problems you keep redundantly pointing out, many LEAs are issuing guns equipped with RDS to their officers. Many more LEAs are permitting their officers to carry them, if purchased at their own expense, if they go through a special RDS training program. They, unlike you, realize that many new tools need professional training to learn to use.

You're factually wrong. MANY people have discovered that, as they age, their vision changes, making it impossible for them to see their front sight clearly. The RDS makes that issue moot. AND if the gun is used for self‒defense, it allows the defender to focus on the threat, not to have to transition to the front sight should deadly force be needed. It makes the shooting easier, faster, and more accurate, no matter how fast and accurate you already are. AND that focus on the threat makes it easier to tell when to stop shooting, because the threat is not blurry, due to focusing the eye on the front sight. I used to say that in a self‒defense situation I'd be able to tell if the threat had surrendered or was no longer a threat. But sometimes making this assessment in FOF training, especially in low light, was often difficult. Now it's easy.

Neither are RDSs.

Simply blow across the emitter and the dust flies away.

If that were to happen I have b/u iron sights immediately available. Isn't it odd how I keep answering the questions that your posts ask, even if they're not posted as questions but, at the same time, you completely avoid my simple and direct questions.

Let's try again. What if you brought up your gun in a self‒defense situation, say an assailant at 50 yards, and your front sight was completely missing? What if your rear sight blade had broken or disappeared?

Nope, not rain, just water from the hose. I live in a near desert, I wasn't going to wait for rain to appear to test this. Here's what happens. It gets wet.

My dot didn't move. I haven't tested other brands or models on this.

I doubt that "we all know" this. I'm confident that there are many noobies on this forum who thought that muscle memory was a real thing. I've had this same discussion in person in our classes.

Well I know, because you just told us that you tried a new (to you) technology without consulting any professional who would have been able to tell/show you to find the dot. So I'm left to reasonably assume that there are other holes in your training. That one was a gaping chasm!

LOL. Oddly your advice does not address my comment. It had to do with how standing on uneven ground or something like stairs will upset the structure that you're relying on to bring your sights on target.

I any case, I'm a firearms instructor for a very busy shooting school on the west coast. We run hundreds of students though our classes every year. We offer classes on the handgun, rifle and SG. We offer beginner, intermediate and advanced instruction on all of those platforms. We have classes devoted to the RDS, shooting on the move, shooting from cover, low light, CCW, the 1911, double action revolver, active shooter response, building search and clearing, AIWB, and more. We run civilians, LE and military through our classes. What you describe is done in many of our classes.

And I attend several shooting schools taught by other instructors nearly every year. I've been through dozens of such drills. They're ALL easier with a RDS, not to mention that I'm faster and more accurate with the RDS.

If you're not going to take any of what I say seriously and objectively, I guess calling me closed minded is one of those pot and kettle situations.

But now that you're explaining your an instructor, I completely understand why you're advocating so hard for red dots and correct instruction for their use. Makes perfect sense. Don't worry, I'll play along....

You've convinced me! I need professional instruction with my new RDS!

12Bravo20 · Oct 4, 2022

All I can say is WOW!!!! The attitudes are really showing on this forum of late.

Back on subject.

I have a slight astigmatism and have to wear bifocals. I can say without out a doubt that my speed and accuracy has improved since I transitioned to using optics on my pistols. I use optics on my target/competition pistols and on my HD/SD/EDC pistols. I can say that using an optic makes it easier and more enjoyable to target shoot even at longer distances out to 100 yards. Yes I regularly shoot my centerfire and rimfire pistols out to 100 yards on a regular basis. It has also helped me when it comes to speed and accuracy when training with my EDC pistols.

As mentioned. With iron sights, one has to focus on the front sight AND the target. And on a two way range, that can be a detriment. With a dot sight, one can focus on the target and the dot will naturally line up for you. This is also true with rifles. The US Military has found this to be true. qualification scored went up when they transitioned to using optics versus iron sights.

Yes with any type of sights, one must still practice and then practice some more.

Now for those that do not want to use an optic, that is your choice. But to say that optics are not needed or they do not help is wrong. Just as belittling or arguing with others that do find optics helpful and useful is wrong.

Last time I checked this IS The High Road and not Glock Talk or ARFCOM.

Ethan Verity · Oct 4, 2022

bigger hammer said:
First, the concept of "muscle memory" is a non sequitur. There is no such thing. Muscles do not have memory. Memory ONLY resides in the brain.

Second, I understand the concept of muscle memory, but it's flawed. As long as you are standing on a relatively flat, level surface, you'll be able to bring your gun up and align the sights with the target. But if you are ever on uneven ground, stairs large rocks, or the like, your sights will not align as well as when you are on even ground. The body can't line up the same way when you're on uneven ground, as when you're on even ground. And so, since your body isn't in the same place as when you train, your sights may not come to you eye, properly aligned.

That's why the best technique for the RDS DOES NOT rely on it. Instead, it's a combination of proprioception and a technique that brings the dot into the window and onto the target.

Fact is, you NEVER "develop[ed] that muscle memory." Your brain remembers approximately where your body is in space, but change the footing, which makes the body realign to keep balance, and it goes out the window.

I've heard this disinformation many times and have demonstrated to those who have said it, that it does not work, except in the limited circumstances where one is on the same sort of footing as when they trained. Change the surface and, all of a sudden, they're having trouble either finding their sights or putting them on target.

More than likely you'd get a similar result to what you have now with irons. But if you learned the proper technique YOU WOULD have it virtually "overnight." it's not beyond you, it's just that your mind is closed.

Interesting... I put a lot of value on "muscle memory" as well, in getting fast sight alignment. That's why I carry defensive semi-autos with all the same grip angle, rather than switching between something like an M&P and a Glock. (I find that when switching between the two, after getting familiar with one, my sights are always presented either too high or too low when shooting with the other model... and requires that added fraction of a second to visually align them.)

Well, per your information I am now testing my "muscle memory" sight alignment in various awkward postures. Going up the steps, feet on different steps, and aiming up... I punch out with the gun from the low ready position with my eyes closed. When I open my eyes, the sights are in near perfect alignment with my eyes.

So, I tried again, going downstairs, feet on two different steps, aiming down..... same 'good' results.

So, I tried again, laying down, aiming horizontally... still getting sight alignment with my eyes when I punch the gun out.

So, I tried again, laying upside down on the steps, aiming down the steps... still working for me.

So... I think you're wrong. With this "muscle memory" it's as easy as pointing your finger to get sight alignment... unless you're not supposed to be able to accurately point your finger at something when in an unusual position?

westernrover · Oct 4, 2022

bigger hammer said:
I think it's Clint Smith who says, "Always cheat, always win." There aren't any prizes for finishing second in a self‒defense situation.

The problem is that you don't know how good your opponent is. Even if you're as good as he is, he has an advantage because you'll be behind the curve, responding to what he's doing. You won't know if you can "win without cheating" until the dust settles. Best to have every reasonable advantage BEFORE the situation occurs, right?

Right. So the question is whether the red dot gives an advantage or not. For the person who is ineffective at using the sights, there is no question the dot lets them cheat to good effect. A person can be ineffective at using the sights for several reasons and those reasons need not disparage them -- regardless of my training level, talent, or physical abilities, I want to win. It's not my ego that's at stake.

Is there a point at which the dot is no longer an advantage? Research indicates that it is an advantage for most people and my own experience has indicated that it has been for me. For sure, it is only a crutch for sight-alignment and site picture. It's not going to do anything for a person's trigger control. Are there people for whom the dot does not net an advantage because their skill with sight alignment and sight picture leave nothing to be gained and they have no physical disabilities? Research with competitive shooters suggests this is the case at shorter ranges, but that the dot still gives an advantage at greater distances. To me, that seems like sufficient advantage to carry it considering the inconvenience of it is so minimal. When I'm breaking clays at 80 yards with the irons, I'll reconsider.

CoalTrain49 · Oct 4, 2022

bigger hammer said:
I'm sorry but this is too absolute for my taste. While no one needs a RDS, it sure would help if you had to deliver an accurate shot to the head of a target, even at "15 yds."

That may be the case for you, but I doubt it, since we've not had a single student, of hundreds, who have taken our RDS class fail to improve his speed and accuracy at all distances. In a self‒defense situation, speed and accuracy are essential, and the RDS improves both.

I don't know what "a nice 15 yd group" means to you. I want to be able to put every round into the head kill box on an IPSC target. And it has to be done against a clock. When you added time to the equation, many people will not be able to shoot your "nice" group. The RDS makes this easier and faster.

If someone is going to spend the money to get a RDS, they'd be foolish not to use it. I'm not sure why some of you folk keep saying that a RDSs, "aren't needed." NO ONE has said that they are, making it pretty much a straw man argument, a logical fallacy.

I haven't seen or heard this "siren call." Can you link one please? How is advertising a RDS any different than advertising, oh, let's say, night sights or any other accessory that makes a shooter more efficient?

I'm always a little suspect of anyone having a vested (financial) interest in trying to convince me that I need something. I have red dot sights and I understand their benefit as I pointed out.

Some people can't use a dot because of astigmatism. It doesn't affect me but I know at least one person that can't use them. Astigmatism is a common condition.

I'll file your post under I need this and $____ to get trained to use it. Fill in the blank. Nice sales pitch by the way.

WrongHanded · Oct 4, 2022

As an appeal to authority was made, namely that a certain person is an instructor at a very busy school, let's review what some other authorities on defensive pistol use have to say:

And then let's remember that for most of us, the goal is self protection from a violent attack. Because that's the point of an EDC pistol.

westernrover · Oct 4, 2022

I have some astigmatism and still use a dot. The dot looks like a starburst and it's not symmetric. If someone had worse astigmatism, it could be problematic, but even if the astigmatism results in a badly smeared dot, the results on target may still be better than alternatives. Some dots are big -- like 6 MOA -- especially those intended for fast acquisition at short ranges. I think astigmatism will affect these dots less than the very fine dots (1 MOA or 2.5 MOA). But if astigmatism smears a 2.5 MOA dot so that it's 3 or 4 MOA in one direction, so what? That's still high precision for a handgun. The dot doesn't have to be round to work. Some dots are triangles on purpose.

With some astigmatism and no corrective lenses, what I see with a Trijicon is like the image in the middle:

I have prescription glasses to correct astigmatism and far-sightedness. They're awesome. I'm still 20/20 without my glasses, but the glasses sharpen things up. I can see the difference on distant text. Honestly, they don't improve the dot on the reflex sight that much and I believe that's because of two factors: the astigmatism isn't that bad; and the dot is not that crisp to begin with. I would like to look through some of the ~$1000 Aimpoint tube reflex sights to see if they're better, but I've looked through all the high-end slide-rides and none have a perfectly crisp dot or very clear glass. I doubt that is different for anyone.

I understand that astigmatism doesn't affect holographic sights the way it does reflex sights. The most common holo sight is the EO Tech. I love those. The glass is clear instead of tinted (necessary for a reflex sight), and the circle and dot are clear instead of smudged like my Trijicon. EO Tech is a bit big for EDC though and it's not easy to scale that tech down. Reflex sights can easily scale down to the point where they're too small. Prism sights are another option for rifles, but not so for EDC handguns.

12Bravo20 · Oct 4, 2022

Another trick to used a dot sight with astigmatism is to have the brightness level turned down as much as possible while having the dot still visible. This will cut down on the bloom. And for some with astigmatism, green reticles work better than red. I know green works better for me. I definitely get less bloom with a green dot versus a red dot. Now others will be opposite from me. I suggest looking through both to see which color works best for you.

Red Dots-Who Wears Them On Their EDC Pistols?

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads