Red Dots-Who Wears Them On Their EDC Pistols?

[Phaedrus/69]

I don't see that anyone has suggested forcing red dots on anyone, or at least I've not seen it said in the seven pages of this thread. As an old sage once said, everyone's entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. Given the way the human body and perceptions work there are some structural advantages to red dots when it comes to speed and it doesn't make any difference to reality if someone denies it. Yet that's hardly the only consideration. Look at some real world examples. If you ask folks on a gun forum if they think training is a good idea I expect most would say it is. But I'd wager the vast majority will not take any training beyond what's required to get a permit or beyond the training they may have from the military or LE. Most gun guys and gals will agree that a quality holster is an important component of a CCW system yet the stores are still full of Uncle Mike's that perpetually sell enough to be offered for decades.

So even if RDS were 100% mechanically reliable (and I know nothing is, but just for sake of argument) and extremely cheap some people still wouldn't get one. After all, they still add some bulk even if it's not much, they still cost some money even if it's not much, etc. Probably the biggie is that they do require some training or at least effort, and a certain segment of the gun crowd is simply unwilling to put in any effort whatsoever to train or get better. Again, look how many companies offer high quality firearms training. And consider what percentage of people actually avail themselves of any of that training.

But I think it's undeniable that RDS are gaining in popularity. I was on Gunbroker this morning when I stumbled up the newish Beretta APX A1 which seems to be an updated version of the Nano I've carried for the last ten or so summers. It's one of the thinnest single stack 9s on the market, yet I see it comes from the factory with the slide already cut for an RDS.

No, RDS will probably never reach 100% acceptance just as we'll never see every gun in a high quality holster, every gun owner highly trained or every citizen vaccinated. Hell, at this point I'd be happy if more people used shampoo and deodorant! But there's little doubt to me that RDS on handguns will only become more popular over time, at least until some advanced tech replaces them.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

It isn't saying it itself, but the language being used by your absolutes and decrees about it. Let people decide for themselves, training is more important than hardware because the deadliest weapon is in that noggin of ours.

And I get it, you really, really, REALLY like red dots and seeing them on every gun you see. Got it, cool. I like red dots too, but if someone else says no I'm not going to stand on a box and pontificate about it either. There's no need to. I'm cool as a cucumber about it even in person, it's not the hill that I want to lay on.

Just to give you an idea about not a bother it is to me, I decided to take two friends out and show them. They both think that it's really cool. But in the end they said that they are fine with what they have already. Not even jimmied about it and life went on. I suspect that it's a money thing because both do not half ass or support 's China as much as they can help it either. And you know what? Whatever their answer really is, I'd still support them because it's the right thing to do and because it's respectful.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

It isn't saying it itself, but the language being used by your absolutes and decrees about it. Let people decide for themselves, training is more important than hardware because the deadliest weapon is in that noggin of ours.

This is my take on where the market is going, not my personal opinion on optics. I don't care what anyone that's not me carries. If THR still exists in 5/10/15 years (and if we can all still have personally owned firearms) we'll see if my Amazing Kreskin impression is on the money or not. If you don't want a dot I can assure you I don't care at all, I don't even care if you carry a gun. And while I can certainly understand not wanting a Chinese sight, and it's super fortunate that there's no need to. I have three RDS and they're all Swedish.

I'm going to let you in on a secret that will blow your mind- you can have a RDS on your gun and still train with it! Your straw man stuff about training doesn't apply to the world we actually live in.

And I get it, you really, really, REALLY like red dots and seeing them on every gun you see. Got it, cool. I like red dots too, but if someone else says no I'm not going to stand on a box and pontificate about it either. There's no need to. I'm cool as a cucumber about it even in person, it's not the hill that I want to lay on.

As for me loving them, yeah I love red dots but I don't have one on any handgun. But I guess you're too busy talking to do any listening.

 

[Styx]

I don't see that anyone has suggested forcing red dots on anyone, or at least I've not seen it said in the seven pages of this thread. As an old sage once said, everyone's entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. Given the way the human body and perceptions work there are some structural advantages to red dots when it comes to speed and it doesn't make any difference to reality if someone denies it. Yet that's hardly the only consideration. Look at some real world examples. If you ask folks on a gun forum if they think training is a good idea I expect most would say it is. But I'd wager the vast majority will not take any training beyond what's required to get a permit or beyond the training they may have from the military or LE. Most gun guys and gals will agree that a quality holster is an important component of a CCW system yet the stores are still full of Uncle Mike's that perpetually sell enough to be offered for decades.

So even if RDS were 100% mechanically reliable (and I know nothing is, but just for sake of argument) and extremely cheap some people still wouldn't get one. After all, they still add some bulk even if it's not much, they still cost some money even if it's not much, etc. Probably the biggie is that they do require some training or at least effort, and a certain segment of the gun crowd is simply unwilling to put in any effort whatsoever to train or get better. Again, look how many companies offer high quality firearms training. And consider what percentage of people actually avail themselves of any of that training.

But I think it's undeniable that RDS are gaining in popularity. I was on Gunbroker this morning when I stumbled up the newish Beretta APX A1 which seems to be an updated version of the Nano I've carried for the last ten or so summers. It's one of the thinnest single stack 9s on the market, yet I see it comes from the factory with the slide already cut for an RDS.

No, RDS will probably never reach 100% acceptance just as we'll never see every gun in a high quality holster, every gun owner highly trained or every citizen vaccinated. Hell, at this point I'd be happy if more people used shampoo and deodorant! But there's little doubt to me that RDS on handguns will only become more popular over time, at least until some advanced tech replaces them.

The point you're trying to make about many gun owners not wanting to put in the effort for training and learn red dots makes little sense to me because the same people wouldn't have put any training into irons as well. There isn't anymore training involved with using red dots than is involved using irons. Matter of fact, I'd say it's easier to learn red dots than to shoot with irons.

I have custom leather and custom kydex holsters, and I also use Uncle Mike's holsters. The Uncle Mike's holsters I've used worked just fine and no different had my gun been in a $100+ more leather holster. I used there pocket holster and their smaller IWB holsters for my LCR and Taurus TCP for years without issue. Might be different with larger firearms.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

The point you're trying to make about many gun owners not wanting to put in the effort for training and learn red dots makes little sense to me because the same people wouldn't have put any training into irons as well. There isn't anymore training involved with using red dots than is involved using irons. Matter of fact, I'd say it's easier to learn red dots than to shoot with irons.

The main point is that most people won't train at all. It's pretty common the first time you try a RDS-equipped pistol to have to fish around for the dot. Pretty much everyone can pick up a pistol and find the sights. Therefore if you're not willing to invest any time at all to train then irons is "easier" at least at first. But yeah, as you say, it's no more training for RDS than sights...assuming you train at all.

 

[Styx]

The main point is that most people won't train at all. It's pretty common the first time you try a RDS-equipped pistol to have to fish around for the dot. Pretty much everyone can pick up a pistol and find the sights. Therefore if you're not willing to invest any time at all to train then irons is "easier" at least at first. But yeah, as you say, it's no more training for RDS than sights...assuming you train at all.

Just because you pick up a pistol and can physically see the sights right away doesn't mean you can utilize them well or better than dots. I also see newbies fishing around taking extra time to align their sights (dots and spacing) only to pull the trigger, the round go elsewhere, and they have no clue as to why. As far as they can tell, everything was lined up the entire time. There are no free rides either way.

I believe the overall consensus is that it's faster for newbies to get good with dots vs irons, but I wouldn’t personally know. If I were to train a newbie again, I'd start them off with a laster or dot at first while getting them use to trigger control, then I would later transition into using irons. I believe people should have the basic fundamental skill set and knowledge on how to use both. The sane with how to shoot DAO, DA/SA, and striker-fired triggers. Even if they perfer one over the other, IMHO, they should be comfortable shooting each type of action.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Guess it comes down to the individual. I've never seen anyone fish for iron sights but I suppose it could happen.

 

[Styx]

Guess it comes down to the individual. I've never seen anyone fish for iron sights but I suppose it could happen.

I wouldn't call it was fishing per se, but they do take extra time to line up sights.

 

[JohnKSa]

That's enough editing and deleting. Time for this one to close.