Cap and Ball Velocity

Try some 4F (FFFFg) powder, use chamber full charges and crush a ball on top of it.
I need to get a Chronograph. Without one all this discussion basically worthless.
 
drobs said:
Try some 4F (FFFFg) powder, use chamber full charges and crush a ball on top of it.
I need to get a Chronograph. Without one all this discussion basically worthless.
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Right I guess the point was to see if anyone had ever made a cap and ball “magnum”. Maybe someone will try it and share the results. But from what I’ve gathered it seems it would cost more money than it’s worth
 
I just had a thought.. would it be possible to take the long cylinder from the pietta navy pepperbox and fit a barrel over it? What modifications would need to be done?
 
thealchemist said:
I just had a thought.. would it be possible to take the long cylinder from the pietta navy pepperbox and fit a barrel over it? What modifications would need to be done?
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I’ve had the same idle thought. You’d need to make an arbor and then an extension of the frame to meet the barrel lug… 45 grains behind a 125gr Kaido bullet? Hmmm.
 
I just happened on a Video by the Eras Gone mold guy, shooting one of the .50" ASM Dragoons. Seemed to work well, but he didn't shoot any crazy heavy loads with 4fg like I would have. He was a bit peeved that it shot so high, but don't they all. I think his was doing something like 30-40" high at 25 yards, which is...crazy. (must be sighted for 300 yards with the tallest of the two leaf sights)(!!!!!!) But that's okay, just put on a taller front sight.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
I just happened on a Video by the Eras Gone mold guy, shooting one of the .50" ASM Dragoons. Seemed to work well, but he didn't shoot any crazy heavy loads with 4fg like I would have. He was a bit peeved that it shot so high, but don't they all. I think his was doing something like 30-40" high at 25 yards, which is...crazy. (must be sighted for 300 yards with the tallest of the two leaf sights)(!!!!!!) But that's okay, just put on a taller front sight.
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It would be interesting to see someone shoot it at 300 yards. Jerry Miculek could probably do pretty good with it long range.
 
I've shot my Walkers to around 125 ish yards with minute of Jackrabbit accuracy, just gifted my brother a 3 model Dragoon with the 3 leaf sight. I didn't try it at any real distance like 100 yards. Gonna have to try it when he gets the chance to shoot it.
 
thealchemist said:
It would be interesting to see someone shoot it at 300 yards. Jerry Miculek could probably do pretty good with it long range.
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Once you got the sights zero'd in, it might not be much of a trick. I imagine the round balls would lose velocity pretty fast, but with a slug I bet you could ring a gong consistently once your 300 yard leaf was "on". But, hard to say what range the extra two leaves (? "leafs"?) sights are intended for. Possibly, more realistically, 100 and 200 yards. Now 200 yards probably would not be a trick at all, once the longest range sight was adjusted for that range.
 
If your sights don't have enough range just use the barrel itself as part of the sight. That way you're not holding over and you're keeping the front sight on the target. The trick is remembering how much barrel to use or marking it with something..
 
hawg said:
If your sights don't have enough range just use the barrel itself as part of the sight. That way you're not holding over and you're keeping the front sight on the target. The trick is remembering how much barrel to use or marking it with something..
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Truth. That works.
 
Round ball is lethal at 300 fps and at 800 fps the effects are very devastative. You dont need high velocity you need reasonable velocity and reasonable accuracy. For long range a rifle is used. For short range a pistol is powerful enough. 30 grains - well packed - is good enough. Dump a bit of cornmeal on top of 25 or 30gr of powder and seat the ball tight in the cylinder and it will do the job.
 
Gator Weiss said:
Round ball is lethal at 300 fps and at 800 fps the effects are very devastative. You dont need high velocity you need reasonable velocity and reasonable accuracy. For long range a rifle is used. For short range a pistol is powerful enough. 30 grains - well packed - is good enough. Dump a bit of cornmeal on top of 25 or 30gr of powder and seat the ball tight in the cylinder and it will do the job.
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Depends on what you are shooting. For shooting people, round ball and 30 grains is fine. Some would say a round ball loaded heavy will smack a man down faster than a slug. I think there is truth to that, but hard to find volunteers for a study.

But...if one is shooting at a pack of wolves closing in, or an aggressive cougar, I'd want lots of 4fg under that ball, no fillers or corn meal, and reasonable to excellent accuracy at 25 yards. Aggressive black bear, I'd want a slug over a full charge, no corn meal. !!!! For those threats, the pistol must shoot to POA, as those animals are short wide targets, not long and skinny like a people (well, most people...some people?) and no belt buckle to aim at.

Depends on what the threat is.
 
I'm not going to rely on a percussion revolver for protection from anything. I'm fine with 30 -35 grains in a.44 or 25 in a.36. No filler. I don't care if the ball is close to the chamber mouth. It makes no difference in the way I shoot. I want my sights the same size as the originals. Nobody makes a Remington with the low front sights of the originals. I can still hit a Coke can at 25 yards more often than not.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
Depends on what you are shooting. For shooting people, round ball and 30 grains is fine. Some would say a round ball loaded heavy will smack a man down faster than a slug. I think there is truth to that, but hard to find volunteers for a study.

But...if one is shooting at a pack of wolves closing in, or an aggressive cougar, I'd want lots of 4fg under that ball, no fillers or corn meal, and reasonable to excellent accuracy at 25 yards. Aggressive black bear, I'd want a slug over a full charge, no corn meal. !!!! For those threats, the pistol must shoot to POA, as those animals are short wide targets, not long and skinny like a people (well, most people...some people?) and no belt buckle to aim at.

Depends on what the threat is.
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You ain't looking hard enough, last bear I saw had a big shiny belt buckle!
 
hawg said:
I'm not going to rely on a percussion revolver for protection from anything. I'm fine with 30 -35 grains in a.44 or 25 in a.36. No filler. I don't care if the ball is close to the chamber mouth. It makes no difference in the way I shoot. I want my sights the same size as the originals. Nobody makes a Remington with the low front sights of the originals. I can still hit a Coke can at 25 yards more often than not.
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Hawg, you are the exception to the rule! :scrutiny:
 
Ugly Sauce said:
Hawg, you are the exception to the rule! :scrutiny:
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I dunno man. I grew up shooting original Colt's from an early age and always favored fixed sighted single actions. Kentucky windage and elevation don't make no never mind. I just learn where the gun shoots and aim there. Some people can't stand it if a gun doesn't shoot exactly where the sights point.
 
hawg said:
I dunno man. I grew up shooting original Colt's from an early age and always favored fixed sighted single actions. Kentucky windage and elevation don't make no never mind. I just learn where the gun shoots and aim there. Some people can't stand it if a gun doesn't shoot exactly where the sights point.
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My point exactly! Yes, I'm one of them POA people. But I like everything to be a couple inches high. With pistols, I try to get POA at 25, and then learn how much sight to hold up for 50 yards. Rifles and muskets, and modern rifles (all open sights) I like about three or even a little more high at whatever their useable range is, usually 100 yards, and then I'm in the habit of holding a little low a closer range, and then dead on if I think it's long range for the particular gun.

Scoped modern rifles, that I very rarely almost never use, or don't use anymore, I just go with the 3" high at 100, and then aim dead on, or don't shoot if I think it's so far out that I would need to hold over.
 
I go two inches high at 100 yards with my scoped deer rifle. Mine has a 26 inch barrel so I get a little more velocity over a 22 inch barrel. My 30-30 is just sighted dead on at 100 yards.
 
Impractical. Black powder burning rate is too slow to achieve significant energy via velocity and most guns don't reach anything over 1500 fps. It is the exact reason why all the military guns were >.50 caliber. You need mass to achieve any meaningful energy. With smokeless it is completely different and you can easily achieve > 2000 fps thus you don't need that much mass and calibers as small as .223 are perfectly viable for the job you once needed atleast .50.

Furhtermore, particularly in a revolver your idea makes no sense. Historically there were .31 rifles for small game that could get meaningful velocity due to long barrel. This is not the case with a revolver, all that additional powder will just simply burn beyond the barrel not contributing to velocity. Not to mention the massive fouling with a charge of 50+ grains that will bind the action of a small caliber gun in no time.

To sum it up, historically there were no such guns (except little number of weird experimental guns that saw no widespread use) because they make little to no sense.
 
Might want to look at Lyman's blackpowder hand book. Sam Fadala did extensive research on velocity and barrel length. I don't recall seeing a 1500 FPS cap on 50 cal stuff, plus I have pushed .36 round ball to get that crack of a supersonic bullet. Revolvers won't achieve that however you ca still kill something with them at distances over 100 yards. Bill Hickok killed Davis Tutt at 75 yards with a navy .36. As to massive fouling after a few shots a properly set up revolver with a .002 barrel to cylinder gap sends the bulk of the fouling down the barrel so that point is moot unless you are using the world's dirtiest powder.
 
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