best 380 defense load?

It's a quote from someone named "Bad Bob" posting on another forum. You can see his quote in context in the following link.

I would be interested to know more, but Bad Bob doesn't provide a link. He does claim to be a retired from the border patrol in other posts on that forum. Can't tell exactly when he claims to have retired, but it was at least 11 years ago.
Bad Bob - About Me

US ARMY Military Police
Police Officer, Fort Worth, Texas
US Border Patrol
Civilian Contractor

The US Border Patrol and the FBI do not agree on this. The US Border Patrol shoots more people than every other federal agency combined. The USBP does not believe that you need 12"-18" of penetration, more like 8"-12". Unfortunately the USBP does not publish these results public consumption. Before you go there they shoot more than just starving 3rd world refugees.

... Before everyone started getting shot laterally, through the upper arm.
 
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Best .380 would be what is reliable in the weapon you use.

Have a Sig P238 that I carry on rare occasion. Took four or five brands before settling on Hornady Critical Defense. Others would not feed reliably.

YMMV and your weapon will have different appetites.

Forgot - normally carry a 1911 in 45ACP.
 
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Best .380 would be what is reliable in the weapon you use.

Have a Sig P238 that I carry on rare occasion. Took four or five brands before settling on Hornady Critical Defense. Others would not feed reliably.

YMMV and your weapon will have different appetites.

And that is something many new defensive shooters neglect.

Both the Winchester 95 gr. flat nosed ball and PDX1 rounds run like clockwork out of the Bersa FireStorm, and am waiting on some Norma ball training ammo of the same weight.

After reliability, big holes that can reach the vitals, 8-10" into the threat, makes the .380 ACP an effective round with good shot placement.
 
big holes that can reach the vitals, 8-10" into the threat, makes the .380 ACP an effective round with good shot placement.

Since you referenced this person before, here is what they posted about 380 for SD - marginal:
Screenshot (54).png


Screenshot (55).png

The person you referenced says 380 is "NOT a decent SD cartridge", it is marginal.
 
Since you referenced this person before, here is what they posted about 380 for SD - marginal:
View attachment 1174984


View attachment 1174985

The person you referenced says 380 is "NOT a decent SD cartridge", it is marginal.

If - the Winchester PDX1 round expands to 0.66", and penetrates 8-10" in even a large 10" torso?

Why would it be any less effective than a 9mm that expanded(if you can find one) and penetrated the same distance?

The only thing causing damage is the crush cavity of the expanded bullet, and it runs out of things to crush when it exits.
 
From a retired border patrolman.

Puts the Winchester .380 ACP PDX1 load, with it's 0.66" expansion, right in the window.

Before everyone started getting shot laterally, through the upper arm.

I carry a .45 ACP.

I remember when this was fairly common knowledge among LE instructors at the beginning of the 90's. Why did the USBP think that way? It was explained that it was because their successful service revolver load produced 'ballistic testing performance' in that range, using the then-new RFBI testing protocols, and they had been very satisfied with its performance for some years.

Time moves on, though. Once everyone in LE/Gov circles had finally transitioned from revolvers to pistols, and the major ammo makers were striving to make JHP ammo that met the FBI requirements, the BP adopted 155gr .40 loads. They were known to be hard on guns, but were reportedly observed to have been as effective as their old revolver rounds. That 155gr load was hard enough on guns that they eventually went to an attenuated (reduced velocity) 135gr load, meaning 135gr producing 1200fps, with an allowable +/- 50fps in the specs. Then, once the shine was off that load, they eventually did what most of the other LE/Gov agencies did for .40, which was return to using the original 180gr load. Back full circle.

The 147gr 9mm continued to attract a significant segment of the LE/Gov market, with the 124gr +P and 127gr +P+ continuing to gather their respective shares. The venerable 115gr +P+ continued to see a place on some of the LE ammo catalogs, but it was much less common to see anyone still using it. Out of dozens of agencies with whom I was familiar with their weapons and duty ammunition in the 90's and 2000's, I can remember 2 of them who ordered the 115gr +P+, but not all the time. Interestingly enough, I remember one medium-sized PD who didn't transition away from service revolvers until 2007 (if I remember right). Up until that time they'd been using revolvers and 110gr +P+ JHP's.

None of this has anything to do with serviceable .380ACP ammunition, other than to remember that the FBI duty ammunition testing protocols weren't always considered the be-all, end-all of dutyy ammunition testing and selection that governed the selection of duty ammunition by the approx 18,000 state and local LE agencies spread across the country. ;)

Granted, there are always going to be those folks who think that the 12"-18" penetration range developed by the FBI for their selection of Duty ammunition is akin to having been chiseled in stone on some mountain top. Well, people are people. :p
 
There are things about the FBI scoring that I don't understand. On page 11 of "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" published by the FBI Firearms Training Unit, it says "penetration up to 18 inches is preferable" but the FBI's scoring system actually gives bullets that penetrate between 14" and 15.99" the highest per bullet score. And why do they give bullests that penetrate less than 12" any points at all?



FBI scoring.JPG

It doesn't make sense to me...
 
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What the FBI protocol does have going for it is that thousands of law enforcement agencies adopted the standard and the data has shown the assertion (...that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not), to be true.

Duncan MacPherson was working with the California Highway Patrol to investigate instances where bullets that had passed the FBI protocols failed to expand in actual shootings. It led to the creation of the four-layer heavy denim engineering evaluation tool. That is to say that law enforcement agencies across the country were actually looking at shootings to verify that ammo that did well in the FBI tests did well in actual shootings.

If the assertion were proven to be false, police unions would balk at attempts to field ineffective ammo. Almost 3 decades of following the FBI protocols has proven that the protocols do indeed show what cartridges are going to be the most effective.
 
If - the Winchester PDX1 round expands to 0.66", and penetrates 8-10" in even a large 10" torso?

Why would it be any less effective than a 9mm that expanded(if you can find one) and penetrated the same distance?
That would be true if people actually believe 8-10" is adequate penetration, but...

I ended up buying the Kindle edition of "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" by Charles Schwartz that I referenced earlier in this thread. To quote the website for the book:

"QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION presents two mathematical bullet penetration models that allow armed professionals and lawfully-armed citizens to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of self-defense ammunition using water as a terminal ballistic test medium. Based upon modified fluid dynamics equations that correlate highly (r = +0.94) with more than 900 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the bullet penetration models accurately predict the permanent wound cavity volume, permanent wound mass, maximum terminal penetration depth, and exit velocity of handgun projectiles as these phenomena would occur in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin and in human soft tissues."

One of those models (more suited to non-scientists like me) is a modified engineering equation from Project THOR which, if you've never heard of it, is pretty freakin' wild. Using the model requires recovered bullet weight, impact velocity, and expanded diameter. The Clear Ballistics gel used in the Lucky Gunner tests is well known to overstate penetration, but I was able to use the tests to obtain the required data for the PDX1 round (95gr bullet weight, 870FPS avg velocity, and .63" avg. expanded diameter) and run it through the mTHOR model. The numbers might not be 100% accurate, because the weight is not from the recovered bullets, and the velocity was likely not measured at impact, but I doubt there would be much difference.

Anyway, according to the mTHOR model, the PDX1 in .380 would penetrate 6.52 inches in FBI-spec 10% organic gel. That's terrible, even by your penetration standards. I ran the numbers multiple times and got the same result each time. It makes sense that a projectile with a diameter of .63" isn't going to have enough power in .380 to penetrate adequately. In the pistol-forum.com thread I linked to earlier, Mr. Schwartz says:

"As you are likely aware, penetration depth is strongly governed by the expansion ratio of JHPs. Where momentum (mass and velocity) is an extremely limited quantity with the .380 ACP, greater expansion ratios severely limit the penetration depth of .380 ACP JHPs where expansion ratios exceed 1.35x caliber."

1.35x caliber in .380 is .48". The best expansion in the world is worthless if the round doesn't have the power to drive the bullet.
 
If - the Winchester PDX1 round expands to 0.66", and penetrates 8-10" in even a large 10" torso?

Why would it be any less effective than a 9mm that expanded(if you can find one) and penetrated the same distance?

The only thing causing damage is the crush cavity of the expanded bullet, and it runs out of things to crush when it exits.

8'' in ballistic gel (like in the video you put on page 1) is not 8'' in tissue, more like 6''
As I said before:
You posted a video where the 380 Winchester penetrated 8.3''
Yet you keep referencing 10'' in clear gel.
8.3'' is the more accurate reflection of penetration.
Now apply that to what I posted before:
"In other words, it’s the average of bone, skin, blood and muscle density. Per a conversation I had with Chris Laack, head of handgun ammunition development for Vista Outdoors (that’s who makes Federal and Speer and many more) at SHOT Show, the correlation seems to be about a 2:3 ratio. If a bullet penetrates 12 inches in gel, it will penetrate about 8 inches in a person. So bear that in mind when you look at testing results,"
Using 8.3'' which you posted in the video yet subsequently ignore, that is more like 6'' in tissue.

An example of how just penetration & expansion in gel may not reflect ASAP incapacitation potential:
Using your repeatedly cited source, Lucky Gunner:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
38 Special Remington 158 gr. LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
357 Magnum Remington 125 gr. SJHP - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
Near identical penetration & expansion in gel.
If we only look at penetration & expansion in gel then one might think the 38 special has equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag.
Do you believe that 38 special to have equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag? I don't. (same shot placement is assumed)

If you are skeptical that 38 special has equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag then we move to the next example...
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
380 Hornady 90 gr. FTX Critical Defense - 13.2'' / .52 - 910 fps - 166# KE
9mm Corbon 115 JHP +P - 13.6'' / .56 - 1,221 fps - 380# KE
Very similar penetration & expansion in gel.
As with the 38 special versus 357 Mag example the difference is KE is double.
If you think the 357 Mag to have better ASAP potential than 38 special, then likewise the 9mm may have better incapacitation potential than 380. (same shot placement)
 
8'' in ballistic gel (like in the video you put on page 1) is not 8'' in tissue, more like 6''
As I said before:


An example of how just penetration & expansion in gel may not reflect ASAP incapacitation potential:
Using your repeatedly cited source, Lucky Gunner:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
38 Special Remington 158 gr. LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
357 Magnum Remington 125 gr. SJHP - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE
Near identical penetration & expansion in gel.
If we only look at penetration & expansion in gel then one might think the 38 special has equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag.
Do you believe that 38 special to have equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag? I don't. (same shot placement is assumed)

If you are skeptical that 38 special has equal ASAP incapacitation potential to the 357 Mag then we move to the next example...
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
380 Hornady 90 gr. FTX Critical Defense - 13.2'' / .52 - 910 fps - 166# KE
9mm Corbon 115 JHP +P - 13.6'' / .56 - 1,221 fps - 380# KE
Very similar penetration & expansion in gel.
As with the 38 special versus 357 Mag example the difference is KE is double.
If you think the 357 Mag to have better ASAP potential than 38 special, then likewise the 9mm may have better incapacitation potential than 380. (same shot placement)

Neither do I. 😎

Ignoring for the time being that the data that we are relying upon comes from the use of a dubious test medium (the Clear Ballistics gel product), it is a simple task to compare these results.

Using the expected time to incapacitation parameter, T[I/H] , derived from the US Army BRL's involuntary incapacitation model (c.1968), based upon an n =7,898 of wound data, to evaluate the two examples that you have provided—

38 Special Remington 158 gr. LSWCHP +P - 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE yields a T[I/H] = 16.65 seconds
357 Magnum Remington 125 gr. SJHP - 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE yields a T[I/H] = 11.50 seconds

—it is clear that the 357 Magnum Remington 125 gr. SJHP is the superior option, assuming identical shot placement.

Likewise, comparing these two options—

380 Hornady 90 gr. FTX Critical Defense - 13.2'' / .52 - 910 fps - 166# KE yields a T[I/H] = 20.49 seconds
9mm Corbon 115 JHP +P - 13.6'' / .56 - 1,221 fps - 380# KE yields a T[I/H] = 13.92 seconds

—the most desirable choice is obvious.
 
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That would be true if people actually believe 8-10" is adequate penetration, but...

I ended up buying the Kindle edition of "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" by Charles Schwartz that I referenced earlier in this thread. To quote the website for the book:

"QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION presents two mathematical bullet penetration models that allow armed professionals and lawfully-armed citizens to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of self-defense ammunition using water as a terminal ballistic test medium. Based upon modified fluid dynamics equations that correlate highly (r = +0.94) with more than 900 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the bullet penetration models accurately predict the permanent wound cavity volume, permanent wound mass, maximum terminal penetration depth, and exit velocity of handgun projectiles as these phenomena would occur in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin and in human soft tissues."

One of those models (more suited to non-scientists like me) is a modified engineering equation from Project THOR which, if you've never heard of it, is pretty freakin' wild. Using the model requires recovered bullet weight, impact velocity, and expanded diameter. The Clear Ballistics gel used in the Lucky Gunner tests is well known to overstate penetration, but I was able to use the tests to obtain the required data for the PDX1 round (95gr bullet weight, 870FPS avg velocity, and .63" avg. expanded diameter) and run it through the mTHOR model. The numbers might not be 100% accurate, because the weight is not from the recovered bullets, and the velocity was likely not measured at impact, but I doubt there would be much difference.

Anyway, according to the mTHOR model, the PDX1 in .380 would penetrate 6.52 inches in FBI-spec 10% organic gel. That's terrible, even by your penetration standards. I ran the numbers multiple times and got the same result each time. It makes sense that a projectile with a diameter of .63" isn't going to have enough power in .380 to penetrate adequately. In the pistol-forum.com thread I linked to earlier, Mr. Schwartz says:

"As you are likely aware, penetration depth is strongly governed by the expansion ratio of JHPs. Where momentum (mass and velocity) is an extremely limited quantity with the .380 ACP, greater expansion ratios severely limit the penetration depth of .380 ACP JHPs where expansion ratios exceed 1.35x caliber."

1.35x caliber in .380 is .48". The best expansion in the world is worthless if the round doesn't have the power to drive the bullet.

Mas Ayoob appears to have found the book to be of value. :)
 
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With so many 9mm pistols sharing the same frame size and the .380, (for example the Glock 42, and 43) in my opinion, the best defense load for the .380 is the 9mm.
 
That would be true if people actually believe 8-10" is adequate penetration, but...

I ended up buying the Kindle edition of "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" by Charles Schwartz that I referenced earlier in this thread. To quote the website for the book:

"QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION presents two mathematical bullet penetration models that allow armed professionals and lawfully-armed citizens to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of self-defense ammunition using water as a terminal ballistic test medium. Based upon modified fluid dynamics equations that correlate highly (r = +0.94) with more than 900 points of manufacturer- and laboratory-test data, the bullet penetration models accurately predict the permanent wound cavity volume, permanent wound mass, maximum terminal penetration depth, and exit velocity of handgun projectiles as these phenomena would occur in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin and in human soft tissues."

One of those models (more suited to non-scientists like me) is a modified engineering equation from Project THOR which, if you've never heard of it, is pretty freakin' wild. Using the model requires recovered bullet weight, impact velocity, and expanded diameter. The Clear Ballistics gel used in the Lucky Gunner tests is well known to overstate penetration, but I was able to use the tests to obtain the required data for the PDX1 round (95gr bullet weight, 870FPS avg velocity, and .63" avg. expanded diameter) and run it through the mTHOR model. The numbers might not be 100% accurate, because the weight is not from the recovered bullets, and the velocity was likely not measured at impact, but I doubt there would be much difference.

Anyway, according to the mTHOR model, the PDX1 in .380 would penetrate 6.52 inches in FBI-spec 10% organic gel. That's terrible, even by your penetration standards. I ran the numbers multiple times and got the same result each time. It makes sense that a projectile with a diameter of .63" isn't going to have enough power in .380 to penetrate adequately. In the pistol-forum.com thread I linked to earlier, Mr. Schwartz says:

"As you are likely aware, penetration depth is strongly governed by the expansion ratio of JHPs. Where momentum (mass and velocity) is an extremely limited quantity with the .380 ACP, greater expansion ratios severely limit the penetration depth of .380 ACP JHPs where expansion ratios exceed 1.35x caliber."

1.35x caliber in .380 is .48". The best expansion in the world is worthless if the round doesn't have the power to drive the bullet.

This is more academic obfuscation.

Here is a Round - a specific round, the .380 ACP 95 gr. Winchester PDX1.
From a Barrel - a specific barrel, the 3.5" Bersa FireStorm.

Here is that specific round, fired from an even shorter barrel, through heavy clothing:
(throwing out the short round)

Here is the Expansion - a specific expansion, from that shorter barrel: 0.63"
Here is the Penetration - a specific penetration, from that shorter barrel: 10.0"

So, even in a large, 10" torso, what will this bullet fail to destroy along its path?

And, upon exiting, what else will a 9mm bullet destroy, besides something collateral down range?

0c8802fbf8b442226e25981af23baf1d.jpg


64fcd8874b78e60d887a0899831f8027.jpg

 
This is more academic obfuscation.

Here is a Round - a specific round, the .380 ACP 95 gr. Winchester PDX1.
From a Barrel - a specific barrel, the 3.5" Bersa FireStorm.

Here is that specific round, fired from an even shorter barrel, through heavy clothing:
(throwing out the short round)

Here is the Expansion - a specific expansion, from that shorter barrel: 0.63"
Here is the Penetration - a specific penetration, from that shorter barrel: 10.0"

So, even in a large, 10" torso, what will this bullet fail to destroy along its path?

And, upon exiting, what else will a 9mm bullet destroy, besides something collateral down range?

0c8802fbf8b442226e25981af23baf1d.jpg


64fcd8874b78e60d887a0899831f8027.jpg


Oh, for Pete's sake.

What occurs in the Clear Ballistics Gel product is not what will occur in human soft tissues or in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin; conclusions drawn from the tests cited above are meaningless and without any value.

First, in order to correctly represent the terminal ballistic behavior of projectiles passing through human soft tissues, it is necessary to use a test medium that duplicates the material responses of human soft tissues accurately. The Clear Ballistic Gel product used in the Lucky Gunner tests cited above is not capable of performing in such a manner because it is not dynamically equivalent to human soft tissues.

A comprehensive approach to establishing the dynamic equivalence of soft tissue simulants to human soft tissues is the use of an EOS (equation of state) that allows the comparison of the physical and acoustic properties of soft tissue simulants. These equations take the form of—

US = co + SuP

—where the equation’s intercept value, co, is the medium's temperature-dependent internal sonic velocity (in km/s), the equation’s slope, S, is a first-order derivative of the medium’s bulk modulus (K) expressed in N/m², uP is particle velocity (in km/s), and US is the shock Hugoniot velocity (in km/s) of the wave front propagated through the medium ahead of the projectile. In order to be dynamically equivalent to the human soft tissues that they are intended to simulate, the slope and intercept values of the EOS of the materials being used as soft tissue simulants must be very close to one another.

The EOS for typical human soft tissues are:
Human Adipose Tissue: US = 1.465 + 1.781uP
Skeletal Muscle: US = 1.547 + 2.136uP

In close agreement with the EOS of human soft tissues above, the two proven soft tissue simulants have an EOS of:
H2O: US = 1.483 + 1.867uP
10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin: US = 1.513 + 2.024uP

The EOS of the Clear Ballistic Gel product differs significantly from that of both human soft tissues and the two currently proven soft tissue simulants:
Skeletal Muscle: US = 1.433 + 1.44uP

While the intercept value, co, of the Clear Ballistic Gel product is slightly below that of both the human soft tissues and the human soft tissue simulants, the slope of the Clear Ballistic Gel EOS, 1.44, is considerably lower than that of all of the other EOSs meaning that test data obtained using the Clear Ballistics Gel product as a test medium will deviate significantly from that obtained in both human soft tissue and the two proven simulants.

Second, the density of the Clear Ballistics Gel product is much lower (@ 0.824g/cm³) than the range of densities observed in human soft tissues, 0.950 ≥ ρ ≤ 1.065 g/cm³, with adipose tissue being at the low end of the range (0.950) and skeletal muscle at the upper end (1.065) as discussed in Basics of Biomedical Ultrasound for Engineers, Azhari H (2010). According to the Bernoulli equation, P = ½ρV², besides projectile velocity (V), the only physical property of a material that determines the magnitude of dynamic pressure is the density (ρ) of the test medium. The dynamic pressure produced at impact is what drives projectile expansion by overcoming the yield strength of the lead alloy forming the core of the bullet. If resultant dynamic pressure produced by a test medium differs greatly from that seen in human soft tissues, then expansion will also differ (significantly) resulting not only in a larger or smaller expanded diameter, but also a correspondingly different maximum terminal penetration depth.

For example, according to Empirical relationships between acoustic parameters in human soft tissues, Acoustical Society of America, Mast TD, (2000), the aggregate density of the human body is 1.043 ± 0.042 g/cm³. Using that density, 1.043 g/cm³, for a JHP impacting at 1,100 fps, the dynamic pressure would be 631.015 MPa.

However, that very same JHP, fired at 1,100 fps into the Clear Ballistics Gel product, would produce a much lower dynamic pressure of 498.520 MPa (approximately 21% less!) which would result in much less expansion than the same JHP would exhibit if fired at 1,100 fps in human soft tissues.

The result?

Less projectile expansion resulting in proportionately greater terminal ballistic penetration depth which is exactly what is seen in all testing conducted with the Clear Ballistics Gel product. Relying upon the Clear Ballistics Gel product for the test above, it is impossible to determine with any accuracy the depth to which the Winchester .380 ACP 95-grain PDX1 JHPs would penetrate in human soft tissues.

Finally, there are other serious issues that render results obtained in the Clear Ballistics Gel product dubious such as the post-impact combustion (resulting from adiabatic compression of the volatiles seen in CBG testing) and excessive projectile rebound (up to 25% of the length of the permanent cavity) that routinely occurs in tests with the Clear Ballistics Gel product, but that is a topic for another day.
 
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Mas Ayoob appears to have found the book to be of value. :)
So do I, at least the parts I can understand. I carry SIG Elite 100gr flat nose FMJs in my P365-380s and LCP MAXs and I don't have the equipment or wherewithal to do ballistics testing. I've had concerns about overpenetration with FMJ and reading those comments over at pistol-forum.com prompted me to pick up the book to see if I could use the models to predict penetration for this round. I found the mTHOR equation was simple enough for me to understand and could be used to predict FMJ penetration without doing actual testing. I ran the equation 4 times using velocities of 911FPS (advertised muzzle velocity), 847FPS (5-shot average chronograph test from a Shield EZ .380 with a 3.6" barrel on the YouTube Tools&Targets channel), 800FPS, and 700FPS. Predicted penetration (rounded to 2 decimals) was:

911FPS - 19.51"
847FPS - 18.51"
800FPS - 17.77"
700FPS - 16.14"

I think it's probably safe to assume that impact velocity from my SIGs would fall between 800 and 847, and the Rugers maybe a bit below 800, but certainly well above 700. I'm happy with those numbers, and from everything I've read, the quality of the SIG Elites is a cut above your typical FMJ round, so I'm confident carrying them. For me, that was worth the price of the book.

One thing I had a question about, and I know you know the answer. ;) The book doesn't specify a projectile configuration-dependent exponent for flat nose FMJ, so I used round nose. Was that Ok?
 
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This is more academic obfuscation.

Here is a Round - a specific round, the .380 ACP 95 gr. Winchester PDX1.
From a Barrel - a specific barrel, the 3.5" Bersa FireStorm.

Here is that specific round, fired from an even shorter barrel, through heavy clothing:
(throwing out the short round)

Here is the Expansion - a specific expansion, from that shorter barrel: 0.63"
Here is the Penetration - a specific penetration, from that shorter barrel: 10.0"

So, even in a large, 10" torso, what will this bullet fail to destroy along its path?

And, upon exiting, what else will a 9mm bullet destroy, besides something collateral down range?

0c8802fbf8b442226e25981af23baf1d.jpg


64fcd8874b78e60d887a0899831f8027.jpg


You keep posting the same thing though it is inaccurate, as 10'' in clear gel is not 10'' in tissue..
I don't know if it is being obtuse or trolling.
Hopefully others reading this thread looking for recommendations on 380 ammo select something better than a bullet that underpenetrates.
 
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So do I, at least the parts I can understand. I carry SIG Elite 100gr flat nose FMJs in my P365-380s and LCP MAXs and I don't have the equipment or wherewithal to do ballistics testing. I've had concerns about overpenetration with FMJ and reading those comments over at pistol-forum.com prompted me to pick up the book to see if I could use the models to predict penetration for this round. I found the mTHOR equation was simple enough for me to understand and could be used to predict FMJ penetration without doing actual testing. I ran the equation 4 times using velocities of 911FPS (advertised muzzle velocity), 847FPS (5-shot average chronograph test from a Shield EZ .380 with a 3.6" barrel on the YouTube Tools&Targets channel), 800FPS, and 700FPS. Predicted penetration (rounded to 2 decimals) was:

911FPS - 19.51"
847FPS - 18.51"
800FPS - 17.77"
700FPS - 16.14"

I think it's probably safe to assume that impact velocity from my SIGs would fall between 800 and 847, and the Rugers maybe a bit below 800, but certainly well above 700. I'm happy with those numbers, and from everything I've read, the quality of the SIG Elites is a cut above your typical FMJ round, so I'm confident carrying them. For me, that was worth the price of the book.

One thing I had a question about, and I know you know the answer. ;) The book doesn't specify a projectile configuration-dependent exponent for flat nose FMJ, so I used round nose. Was that Ok?

Well, kinda, sorta. ;)

If the projectile configuration that you are inquiring about looks like this—

1696942304078.png

—the correct exponent would be the one for ''truncated cone''.
 
Oh, for Pete's sake.

What occurs in the Clear Ballistics Gel product is not what will occur in human soft tissues or in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin; conclusions drawn from the tests cited above are meaningless and without any value.

But yet, it is what both the FBI, and ammo manufactures, use to quantify and qualify their products and choices, regardless of spec.

Here is the Winchester .380 ACP 95 gr. PDX1 round, through actual FBI spec clothing/gel., from a 2-3/4" barrel.
(which is only about 70% of the effective length of a 3-1/2" in barrel)



8.5 inches, with great expansion.
(and 10" from the longer barrel)

From a 2-3/4" micro.

Still in the 8-10" window that the U.S. Border Patrol found adequate.

Before everyone started getting shot laterally, through the upper arm.
 
But yet, it is what both the FBI, and ammo manufactures, use to quantify and qualify their products and choices, regardless of spec.

Here is the Winchester .380 ACP 95 gr. PDX1 round, through actual FBI spec clothing/gel., from a 2-3/4" barrel.
(which is only about 70% of the effective length of a 3-1/2" in barrel)



8.5 inches, with great expansion.
(and 10" from the longer barrel)

From a 2-3/4" micro.

Still in the 8-10" window that the U.S. Border Patrol found adequate.

Before everyone started getting shot laterally, through the upper arm.



Absolutely not. That is not correct.

The FBI does not use—nor has it ever used—the Clear Ballistics Gel product to perform any of the FBI test protocols. The Clear Ballistics Gel product is not a valid tissue simulant and it is not interchangeable with Knox and Kind or VYSE 250 Bloom Type-A ordinance gelatin

The tissue simulant utilized in FBI ballistic tests is Kind & Knox or VYSE 250 Bloom Type-A ordnance gelatin at 10% nominal concentration, by weight. Validation of Kind & Knox or VYSE 250 Type-A ordnance gelatin ballistic gelatin is conducted by firing a .177" steel BB at 590 ± 15 fps, into each gelatin block, resulting in 8.5 ± 1.0 cm, penetration (or 2.95" - 3.74").

While 8 - 10 inches of might suffice for unobstructed frontal target presentation, to assume that someone attempting to end your life is going to stand squarely and unmoving while you shoot at them is in serious error. In dynamic engagements, oblique and lateral target presentation is more the rule than the exception.
 
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Well, kinda, sorta. ;)

If the projectile configuration that you are inquiring about looks like this—
...
—the correct exponent would be the one for ''truncated cone''.
It's not a truncated cone like the XTP, It's more like a round nose with the top cut off.

SIG_380_FMJ.jpg
 
It's not a truncated cone like the XTP, It's more like a round nose with the top cut off.

View attachment 1175182

I understand.

There is a significant difference in how round nose and flat nose bullets behave in soft tissues and their simulants.

The reason that the Sig Sauer .380 100-grain FMJFN should be modeled as a truncated cone instead of a round nose is due to the presence of the meplat (that's the flat surface on the front of the bullet presently under discussion).

At impact and during the cavitation regime (when the velocity of the bullet is high enough to produce cavitation in the target), the meplat forces the target material (at point 'A') to move radially and perpendicularly away from the path of the bullet's direction of travel; think of it as a 'pile-up' multi-car accident where cars crash into an immovable object one after another. This redirection of target material creates a ''bubble'' that moves the target material away from the side of the bullet (separation point) so that it makes contact only with the front of the bullet and never touches the side of the bullet as seen in the attached diagram—

1696957882833.jpeg


This is the realm of inertial drag. Almost all of forces acting upon the bullet are inertial. That is, they are a function of the projectile's and target's density only. Notice that I said 'almost'? Nothing is absolute; even in the cavitation regime there is some, albeit very minor, parasitic drag (arising from surface contact that results in frictional forces) arising from the small amount of surface contact present during this phase of penetration.

Once the bullet's velocity decreases to the point at which cavitation can no longer be sustained, an increasing amount of target material makes contact with the sides of the bullet and the frictional forces arising from that contact creates (parasitic or frictional) drag.

Since the bullets that you have chosen to use possess a significant meplat that will result in the terminal performance described above, treating it as a truncated cone is the best modeling approach.

Round nose bullets lack a meplat (if there is one, it is very, very small—perhaps a millimeter or so) and do not produce as much stagnation pressure as a truncated cone bullet. The lack of a significant meplat allows target material to make contact with more of the round nose bullet's lateral surfaces resulting in increased parasitic drag due to a separation point that is located much further back along the length of the bullet than what occurs with a truncated cone bullet.

1696958747343.jpeg

These frictional forces are often slightly imbalanced and can result in ''steering forces'' that cause the axial destabilization of the bullet which is why round nose projectiles are more likely to flip end-over-end during passage through the target whereas truncated cone projectiles tend to follow straighter trajectories through soft tissues.


I wanted to provide an understandable explanation but didn't want ''to get to far into the weeds''; apologies for its length. I hope this helps. :)
 
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Absolutely not. That is not correct.

The FBI does not use—nor has it ever used—the Clear Ballistics Gel product to perform any of the FBI test protocols.

Thanks for failing to either read the post, or watch the attached video, before responding.

Here is the Winchester .380 ACP 95 gr. PDX1 round, through actual FBI spec clothing/gel., from a 2-3/4" barrel.
(which is only about 70% of the effective length of a 3-1/2" in barrel)



Because apparently academic hyperbole trumps facts and the truth.
 
Thanks for failing to either read the post, or watch the attached video, before responding.



Because apparently academic hyperbole trumps facts and the truth.

It is well known—and long established—that the FBI test protocols use Kind & Knox Bloom Type-A ordnance gelatin at 10% nominal concentration, by weight. It is also clearly apparent that the FBI test protocols DO NOT rely upon the Clear Ballistics Gel product and that they never have.

Here is yet another source—provided by our very own Shawn Dodson—that confirms the use of Kind & Knox 250 Bloom Type-A ordnance gelatin at 10% nominal concentration, by weight in the FBI test protocols as per the INS National Firearms Unit Ballistic Gelatin Test Protocol (1998). Nowhere in that, or any other, document sanctioned by INS National Firearms Unit does the use of the Clear Ballistics Gel product ever see mention/sanction for use in the protocols.


Another source (from Dr Fackler) that confirms the use of Kind & Knox 250 Bloom Type-A 10% ordnance gelatin in the FBI test protocols but makes absolutely no mention of the Clear Ballistics Gel product being used or interchangeable with 10 Kind & Knox 250 Bloom Type-A ordnance gelatin:

The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology 9(3) 218-219, September 1988.

None of this is academic hyperbole.
 
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