best 380 defense load?

I have two .380s, one was my IDPA BUG when that was a side match, nothing I care to shoot all day as a main match gun. The other is largely a memento of a deceased friend.
I can find room for a subcompact 9mm as a hideout gun and don't have to puzzle over the best bullet for .380.

Have a micro 9mm for minimum concealment situations as will.

But that does not negate the fact that the .380 ACP, with proper barrel length and ammo selection, is a viable Self/Home Defense round, for those who can shoot it effectively.
 
I never gave 380 much thought...until I acquired a Beretta 84F. I found I like that pistol a lot. Fits my hand well, carries easily, utterly reliable...and accurate.
Best 380 load for me? Underwood XTP +P...but I wouldn't lose sleep using any good jhp load.
 
I've tried to read through this thread the best I could, and I just wanted to point out that there are many other 380 ACP rounds that have better terminal ballistics than the 95gr bonded Winchester PDX1.



 
I never gave 380 much thought...until I acquired a Beretta 84F. I found I like that pistol a lot. Fits my hand well, carries easily, utterly reliable...and accurate.
Best 380 load for me? Underwood XTP +P...but I wouldn't lose sleep using any good jhp load.

Cheetah's are a cool pistol.

For me, it was the Bersa FireStorm.

A foil, not a cutlass.


I've tried to read through this thread the best I could, and I just wanted to point out that there are many other 380 ACP rounds that have better terminal ballistics than the 95gr bonded Winchester PDX1.




Only if one believes that the current FBI Service Pistol spec. is necessary, in which case, the .380 ACP is a poor choice.

The FBI dumped the 9mm and developed the .40S&W/180 gr. to solve that problem.
 
Only if one believes that the current FBI Service Pistol spec. is necessary

No.

I made a simple statement that is fairly independent of the FBI standards. Rounds that average 13.5" of penetration in ordnance gel using the IWBA protocol have better terminal ballistics than rounds that average 8.5" penetration.
 
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No.

I made a simple statement that is fairly independent of the FBI standards. Rounds that average 13.5" of penetration in ordnance gel using the IWBA protocol have better terminal ballistics than rounds that average 8.5" penetration.

Trading expansion for penetration does not result in improved terminal ballistics, if the vital organs are reached either way.
 
Only the lateral upper torso/arm was presented.
Correct. They were outside of the car and therefore no one shot through a window.
How likely is that as a Self Defense situation?
It could easily happen. It's not uncommon for an attacker to blade towards the victim with a gun pointed towards them and that's a very similar presentation. That puts the arm in front of the torso and the torso more or less lateral to the victim.
Avoiding shooting through the upper arm...
It's pretty common for people to get hit in the hands/arms because that's what they hold out in front of them if they have a weapon. I don't know how you avoid shooting through hands and arms. And it's pretty common for people to present at an angle when they are shooting or using a weapon. I'm not saying that a .380 is useless for self-defense, but if you think that a self-defense shot is always going to be straight in through the front of the torso with nothing in the way, you are sadly misinformed. You desperately need to watch some bodycam/dashcam/security cam video of shootings.
Semantics - The FBI Spec. was 10mm/180 gr./1,000 fps/400 ft-lbs... which was eventually optimized and proliferated throughout LEA's as the .40S&W/180 gr..
If you want to talk facts, then get your facts straight. You said the FBI tailor-made the .40S&W. That is false. Not semantics--FALSE. In fact, the FBI was not involved with the development of the .40S&W at all and didn't issue the .40S&W until over 7 years after the .40S&W was first introduced. They actually went from 10mm back to 9mm before they finally switched to .40S&W.
The FBI dumped the 9mm and developed the .40S&W/180 gr. to solve that problem.
That is a false statement and you can easily verify that fact. The FBI had absolutely no involvement in the development of the .40S&W. They developed a 10mm loading that was later duplicated by S&W without involvement by the FBI.
Trading expansion for penetration does not result in improved terminal ballistics, if the vital organs are reached either way.
The point is that you can't guarantee they will be reached because attackers don't always stand straight up facing their victims with their hands and arms to the side so they won't interfere with an incoming bullet.

I'm not arguing that the .380ACP is useless for self-defense. In fact, I carry it myself, on occasion. But it's just not possible to support an argument that self-defense shootings will never involve obstructions by other body parts or will never involve anything other than direct frontal torso shots. The truth is that sometimes a .380ACP expanding round is not going to reach the vitals because there's an arm in the way and/or because the angle to the vitals is deeper than the penetration provided by the .380ACP. That's just one of the realities one must face when carrying the round for self-defense and choosing expanding ammo. You have to accept that it has limitations and that it's possible those limitations could result in a failure to stop.
 
Due to arthritis in my hands I recently switched from 9mm with Federal HST 124gr JHP to 380 ACP with Underwood Extreme Defender (fluid transfer monolithic all copper) 68 grain. Why this 380 ammo?

I selected the ammo after many hours of research. I found that the due too the ballistics of 380 JHP expansion was a challenge. Expansion depends upon velocity, which in turn depends on the power of the ammo. Expansion is unpredictable in short barrels like those of many modern 380 pistols. My Ruger Security 380 Lite Rack has a 3.42 inc barrel. Close enough to 3” that I felt insecure with JHP. For years folks have recommended using FMJ in 380 to get deeper penetration in lieu of expansion. The 380 fluid transfer bullet is designed to provide very good penetration because the 68gr bullet provides greater velocity than mist JHP bullet weights. Fluid transfer bullets are now proven to provide equal or greater wound cavities than JHP in 380, and with penetration and wound cavity being critical factors of lethality I settled on the Extreme Defender ammo.


With patience on YouTube one can review many test of 380 ammo. Many will confirm what I have written above. Ammo is always a personal choice, but it ought to be made based upon science not myth. I am happy with my choice.
I roll my own version of the Underwood using components. I also recently worked up a load using the Lehigh XP 95gr in the 9Mak.
A
What I found with the .380 XP is that 800fps is really all I needed in my wife’s Walthers P380 to get fist sized holes in under ripe watermelons. They’re about the consistency of ballistic gel but with armor plating. 😁👍

I don’t think they’re magic but they will do some damage.
 
It's pretty common for people to get hit in the hands/arms because that's what they hold out in front of them if they have a weapon. I don't know how you avoid shooting through hands and arms. And it's pretty common for people to present at an angle when they are shooting or using a weapon. I'm not saying that a .380 is useless for self-defense, but if you think that a self-defense shot is always going to be straight in through the front of the torso with nothing in the way, you are sadly misinformed. You desperately need to watch some bodycam/dashcam/security cam video of shootings.
This should be obvious to most, but I think there is more to it. Although I've never launched a live round against a human, I have launched a lot of 9mm Simunition rounds at colleagues in simulation and spent much time launching simulated rounds into video bad guys in simulator training. It is instinctual to focus on the threat, which is not the entire person (or the chest cavity or the brain), but the gun or impact weapon that was the main reason for alarm, and I had a tendency to hit the weapon and/or forearm before my brain clicked that it was not the correct place to stop the person holding the weapon and to adjust my POA. The need to potentially shoot through clutter before getting to the torso is why I, like the FBI, assign more value to ideal penetration than to expansion. And, as I understand the FBI protocols in 9mm, 14-15.99 inches in gel is ideal, 16-18 inches slightly less, and 12-13.99 inches the minimum, both in bare gel and after passing through 5 types of barriers. (P.S. 18.01 inches to infinity gets half of the ideal score, so it is not an automatic DQ. And, in the case of .380, it is not a round that is ever likely to go very far or with much velocity after penetrating someone.) Why strive for the barest minimum against the easiest media just because something is not labelled a "duty caliber"?

I've tried a lot of .380 hollowpoints against various barriers and they all failed. If I am going to carry a .380, it is loaded with Underwood standard pressure 68 grain XD because it does well against barriers I have shot and it doesn't overpenetrate when it does not hit a barrier. I also can shoot them with the same or better accuracy a lot faster than the same size 9mm gun. With that ammo, and excluding the woods, I won't go anyplace with a Sig P365 or Sig P365 XL in 9mm that I wouldn't go with the P365-380. The Glock 42 would be more marginal from a capacity standpoint. There are no LCPs in my life.

Everyone should carry whatever they want. Just think it through and test your ammo in your gun against a lot of different objects. Especially in non-duty calibers, don't just watch videos, hypothesize ideal self-defense scenarios to justify your biases, or over-analyze stuff that happened in 1986.

Stay safe.
 
In the middle of a gunfight, with adrenaline pumping through the roof and who knows what else going on, the real fantasy for anyone who isn't highly trained and experienced in combat tactics is thinking they're going to have the time and presence of mind to figure out, in a split-second, which part of the face/thorax/pelvic girdle is unobstructed and deliver a precision shot to that location. I'll freely admit that I'm not bad-ass enough to do that, and I'd never bet my life on my ability to do so.
Indeed.

This often reminds me of some folks who study a little bit of self defense, and then expect to immediately execute punches, blows and strikes with precision when everything gets fuzzy with flying fur. If you have to stop and think about executing a technique/response, you're already too far behind the curve. Then, people end up flailing around, hoping that luck will favor them and quantity of reactive blows may make up for lack of training and having programmed their software. (It doesn't help that their opponent/attacker may already be ahead of them in their own OODA Loop. ;) )

This is a good argument for seeking to train until techniques can be accessed at the level of unconscious competence, where the realization occurs that it needs to happen, but your conscious thoughts aren't bogged down with trying to think your way through doing it ... which makes it too late.

Sure, another critical part is being able to read body language, posture and 'set up' in your opponent/attacker, which is another aspect of proper training. Gaining some experiential knowledge to reinforce the unconscious competence abilities can be helpful, if only through as realistic and/or recurrently repetitive training and practice as is possible. (Since none of us wants to have to undergo situations where me must use such skills in real life situations, and seek to maximize avoidance.)
 
And try training with more realistic targets that don't have nicely circled outlines and bright orange dots to help guide your focus.
terrorist-with-gun-gangster-with-gun-ghetto-vector-29291630.jpg

plain-clothes-young-policeman-pointing-gun-with-both-hands-aiming-J8HAJ0.jpg

soldier-pointing-gun-you-36754511.jpg


Use these type of targets on a timed course and it's sometimes interesting were people's bullets end up.
 
More in support of the point(s) that you are making with regard to the Clear Ballistics Gel product is that it lacks the correct density (0.999 ≥ ρ ≤ 1.043 g/cm³) to properly drive projectile expansion resulting in an over-representation of maximum terminal penetration depth. Ultimately, projectile expansion is directly dependent upon dynamic pressure which is determined solely by the Bernoulli* equation, PDYNAMIC = ½ρV². In the specific case of the Clear Ballistics Gel product, its density, 0.824 g/cm³, falls outside of the correct range of density needed to correctly initiate and drive projectile expansion.

In almost every imaginable example that you might produce—

—the expanded diameter of identically constructed projectiles fired into the Clear Ballistics Gel product is significantly smaller than that of those fired into shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin; leading us right back to an over-representation of maximum terminal penetration depth.

In other words, you are claims are correct in every aspect of their content.

Finally, the Clear Ballistics Gel product fails to shear-validate in accordance with the presently accepted standard (of a .177-caliber steel BB fired from an air gun over a chronograph at 590 ± 15 fps into 10% ordnance gelatin resulting in a penetration depth of 8.50 ± 1.00 cm) that correlates to both mammalian soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. That is a tremendous problem. The process of shear-validation is important because it ensures that the gelatin has the correct viscosity so that it will properly represent the viscous drag components that dominate projectile deceleration in the non-cavitation velocity regime (which is less than 750 fps for a BB). BBs are used because they are spherical; if the BB ''tumbles'', geometric uniformity is ensured because the sphere is symmetric on all axes (x, y, z) . If a test medium cannot be confirmed to behave properly in the low-velocity regime, then that test medium cannot be expected to reliably and accurately duplicate projectile performance as it would occur in mammalian soft tissues.

*Note: Bernoulli's equation, proposed in Hydrodynamica written in 1738, has withstood the test of time. I think that it rests on pretty solid ground 285 years later having never been disproved.

Indeed.

It seems that one of the basic points of disagreement is whether someone is choosing a particular gun, caliber & ammunition combination which would pass scrutiny for modern Duty Weapon, or chooses something for a specific situational context which may not meet those current standards.

Sure, like any other firearms instructor I've heard ad nauseam opinions and fervent proclamations that ONLY weapons, calibers and ammunition should be selected for self defense which meets the prevailing FBI testing protocols for Duty ammunition, and how personal defense situations for private persons and LE ought to be considered the same in many respects. Well, Yes, No & Maybe. There's always going to be the potential for a shift in situational context that may skew things a little shy of the 'golden standard' of Duty ammunition ballistic performance. ;)

This is why the venerable .380ACP (and .38 S&W SPL) can still find itself accepted in LE circles as a Secondary Duty and Off-duty choice, even if the specific ammunition issued or authorized may not meet the FBI protocols for Duty ammunition. Nobody in modern LE circles would think to belt on a .380ACP for a primary Duty weapon. (The .38 S&W SPL is a different subject, and not germane to this thread topic.) That doesn't mean someone who carries a common Duty caliber as a primary working gun can't be adequately served with carrying a .380ACP as a Secondary weapon/caliber while On-duty, though, on their off time, when they aren't out actively looking to find and intervene in on-view criminal activity every minute of every hours. Risk assessment and exposure can vary.

I usually think of .380ACP as being "Minimally marginal". For lack of bullet weight, if nothing else. Then, of course, there's also the potential for reduced penetration (especially if a bullet expands) which may not meet the 'standard' for Duty ammunition. The compromises are pretty well known and understood these days. (Side-stepping the shooter-involved compromises of actually shooting the diminutive .380's sufficiently well. ;) )

Many folks have already made up their minds when it comes to the .380ACP. Hell, the only reason I stopped avoiding use of the caliber (for approx 25 years?) was because the LCP and Bodyguard came along. (I ignored the KelTec P3AT :p, for reasons of my own.) The new small & reliable .380's offered me something my J-frames didn't, which was to fit in some shorter and tighter jeans pockets (holstered) that wouldn't conceal my J's. Not everyone wishes to stuff a "Full-Size Fighting Handgun" in their waistband on their own time, especially not the current trend of AIWB. I have a short torso and I can't sit, bend or crouch and engage in heavy exertion with something digging into my abdomen and groin. Maybe if I were taller waisted.

Anyway, the known compromises of the .380ACP, and it's ammunition choices, are something for any particular person to consider for themselves. There are certainly days and anticipated situations where I leave the LCP's in the safe and grab one of my J's, with their heavier bullet weights (and their not-so-insignificant advantages inherent in a nicely crafted revolver DA/DAO trigger press :) ).

Oh yeah, last but not least, if a caliber (Like the .380) falls within the category of being "minimally marginal", the user's skills better not do likewise. Better be a bit ahead of the curve in that regard, I'd think. ;)
 
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And try training with more realistic targets that don't have nicely circled outlines and bright orange dots to help guide your focus.
terrorist-with-gun-gangster-with-gun-ghetto-vector-29291630.jpg

plain-clothes-young-policeman-pointing-gun-with-both-hands-aiming-J8HAJ0.jpg

soldier-pointing-gun-you-36754511.jpg


Use these type of targets on a timed course and it's sometimes interesting were people's bullets end up.
Not uncommon to see 'hits' cluster around the visible weapon, especially if some minimal stress is introduced, like a time constraint. Threat focus can be an unconscious occurrence.

The use of similar threat targets with subdued anatomical markings on them can surprise some folks, too.

Especially those which present oblique angles of presentation. 2D paper targets can make some people forget that in the real world the threats are 3D in nature, and a shift in presentation angle can change anatomical relationships. Then, introduce some (carefully controlled) shooter movement (both during and between shots taken) and it may help some folks see how things can change from the shooter's perspective. Thinking in 3D and anatomical relationships takes some time.

One of the things that sometimes seemed to throw some folks off was using threat targets that showed different weapon positioning, and the pictured 'threat' using both (unpredictably) 1 & 2-handed shooting techniques. Some folks tend to get caught up in thinking that everyone who may attack them may be holding and shooting guns the same way they've been trained to do so. I once watched the use of some picture threat targets, positioned in mixed shadow during a qual scenario, holding a very large pistol pointed at the defender' using a low side/hip hold. It was surprising how some people didn't notice the low-held weapon, either very quickly, or at all. (Mistaking it for a No-Shoot situation?) Well, in real life, any question of the threat being a threat would probably be resolved when the muzzle blast/flash occurred, and clarified things, right?
 
According to the Los Angeles Police Department the best load for the 380 is ball ammunition. They have issued orders to all their officers that carry 380s off duty to only carry ball ammo.
 
According to the Los Angeles Police Department the best load for the 380 is ball ammunition. They have issued orders to all their officers that carry 380s off duty to only carry ball ammo.
Have you seen any official documentation around that? I've only been able to find a January, 2016 column by Larry Mudgett the (former?) LAPD firearms instructor who helped develop their off-duty standard. In that column (on the Marksmanship Matters website) he says:

"Note that the LAPD currently requires the use of the CCI 95 grain Full Metal Jacket load in their .380 ACP backup guns. They have concluded that this load feeds in all their authorized pistols and it will not “under penetrate.” This bullet uses a total metal jacket as opposed to a full metal jacket. In tests conducted by LAPD SWAT (this author) total metal jacket bullets performed better when shooting through auto class and other barriers which would sometime cause FMJ projectiles to shed their jackets."

I assume he meant CCI Blazer Brass, but I'd like to know for sure. Also, in Google searches, I've come across several blog posts from later in 2016 saying that LAPD had authorized .380s for off-duty carry but with Speer Lawman. I'd really like to know which one it is, and whether it's still their standard.
 
Have you seen any official documentation around that? I've only been able to find a January, 2016 column by Larry Mudgett the (former?) LAPD firearms instructor who helped develop their off-duty standard. In that column (on the Marksmanship Matters website) he says:

"Note that the LAPD currently requires the use of the CCI 95 grain Full Metal Jacket load in their .380 ACP backup guns. They have concluded that this load feeds in all their authorized pistols and it will not “under penetrate.” This bullet uses a total metal jacket as opposed to a full metal jacket. In tests conducted by LAPD SWAT (this author) total metal jacket bullets performed better when shooting through auto class and other barriers which would sometime cause FMJ projectiles to shed their jackets."

I assume he meant CCI Blazer Brass, but I'd like to know for sure. Also, in Google searches, I've come across several blog posts from later in 2016 saying that LAPD had authorized .380s for off-duty carry but with Speer Lawman. I'd really like to know which one it is, and whether it's still their standard.

I haven’t seen anything other than what you have quoted. That said the opinion of someone like Mr. Mudgett is something I find highly credible.
 
Found this, and thought it was interesting:

The US Border Patrol and the FBI do not agree on this. The US Border Patrol shoots more people than every other federal agency combined. The USBP does not believe that you need 12"-18" of penetration, more like 8"-12". Unfortunately the USBP does not publish these results public consumption. Before you go there they shoot more than just starving 3rd world refugees.
 
Found this, and thought it was interesting:

That is weird, because they use Winchester 147 gr. 9mm
Both Winchester 9mm loads penetrate 14'' after heavy clothing.
Screenshot (52).png

https://winchesterle.com/-/media/Pr...gun-Bullet-Barrier-Testing-Protocol_2016.ashx
Whether it is the 147 Bonded or 147 T Series it penetrates 14'' after heavy clothes in manufacturer testing, not clear gel.
So yea, do like the border patrol and carry a 9mm that penetrates 14'' - good choice.
If 380 is the best you can do emulate what the border patrol does and carry a bullet that penetrates at least 12''.
dancing-banana-banana.gif
 
That is weird, because they use Winchester 147 gr. 9mm
Both Winchester 9mm loads penetrate 14'' after heavy clothing.
View attachment 1174489

https://winchesterle.com/-/media/Pr...gun-Bullet-Barrier-Testing-Protocol_2016.ashx
Whether it is the 147 Bonded or 147 T Series it penetrates 14'' after heavy clothes in manufacturer testing, not clear gel.
So yea, do like the border patrol and carry a 9mm that penetrates 14'' - good choice.
If 380 is the best you can do emulate what the border patrol does and carry a bullet that penetrates at least 12''.
dancing-banana-banana.gif

From a retired border patrolman.

Puts the Winchester .380 ACP PDX1 load, with it's 0.66" expansion, right in the window.

Before everyone started getting shot laterally, through the upper arm.

I carry a .45 ACP.
 
Found this, and thought it was interesting:
The US Border Patrol and the FBI do not agree on this. The US Border Patrol shoots more people than every other federal agency combined. The USBP does not believe that you need 12"-18" of penetration, more like 8"-12".

That ^ is very interesting. Thank you for posting that. Is that a quote?
Can you post the link to the text or article where you found this ? That would be very helpful. Thank you.
 
It's a quote from someone named "Bad Bob" posting on another forum. You can see his quote in context in the following link.

I would be interested to know more, but Bad Bob doesn't provide a link. He does claim to be a retired from the border patrol in other posts on that forum. Can't tell exactly when he claims to have retired, but it was at least 11 years ago.
 
It's a quote from someone named "Bad Bob" posting on another forum.
No disrespect intended toward Bad Bob, who is a knowledgeable and prolific poster over at Defensive Carry, but one post in one thread by someone whose credentials can't be vouched for isn't particularly useful. If the Border Patrol shoots more people than any other federal agency and believes that 8" of penetration is sufficient, a position contrary to pretty much every ballistics expert you can think of, that would be huge news in the gun community, given the outsized amount of attention paid to supposed mouse gun ballistic shortcomings.

I've been trying to find some corroboration, but all I've found so far is a 7-year-old thread on The High Road, where someone said he saw some unidentified articles somewhere about it. Personally, I'd love to see it.
 
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