Sparta and Guns

Can you even get a license for a broom?

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In Salem Massachusettes you'd likely need one so they could tax you for it.

Because those that can do, those that can't need a cool saying.

The radical notions that all doctrines should be questioned, and that government can be controlled directly by the citizens (just to name a few) come to us from the streets of ancient Athens.

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Sort of.

Plato is probably one of Athen's most famous spokesmen, and his Republic has come down to us as a how-to manual for the ruling class. Some of its main points are that some are meant to rule and other are meant to be ruled; and that the ruling class must design a religion or myth that explains why the rulers are justly given power.

Also says that rulers lying to the governed is just part of the job. So it wasn't just Sparta that didn't quite get the democracy thing right on the first try.

I hope we've modified those early Greek concepts here in the US, but some days I think that most of our politicians are pretty much convinced that Plato was dead-on, and live by his teachings.

Yes it's ironic that the very intellectual freedom of Athens gave rise to one of the most famous justifications for dictatorship. But of course The Republic was much more than that, and has been frequently misquoted and abused for the past two thousand years. The point here is that it was Athens, for better or worse, who's culture survived and who's ideas took root in the west. Sparta's unique and deeply strange culture died out and had no lasting influence on anything. The only reason it is remembered at all is for its famous soldiers and long wars with Athens. Though Sparta eventually won those wars on the battle field, it lost the larger battle of survival.

Because the persiand demanded they give up their arms, and they replid come and take/get them

The same respnse I hope Americans have the balls to utter when they decide its time to take them

If all the spartans were citizen soldiers, then why did they have that part where they asked the other guys on their side, "what is your profession"? They answered stuff like blacksmith, farmer etc. Then the spartans made it clear that there only profession was "BLAAAARGH" or something which I took to mean soldiering.

So they were professional soldiers and not armed citizens. Right?

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spartans were trained from the very begening of their lives to be soldiers. that was who they were. they had other jobs, but they WERE soldiers, and trained on a daily basis. as far as i know.

I doubt anyone can accurately judge Sparta's legacy by only comparing Sparta's laws and society to modern laws and societies. It makes sense to also look at previous laws and societies and see how Sparta was different.

Sparta is rightly criticized for slavery and horrible treatment of Helots, who they whipped, tortured, robbed, and murdered in cold blood. However, slavery was the rule rather than the exception at that time and Sparta's enemies at Thermopylae, the Persians, also held slaves.

One way that Spartans were different from their contemporaries is that Spartan women had many of the same rights as men, far more than women in most other other societies did. Though not citizens, they owned property, got the same education as men, moved about as they pleased, etc.

Another way they differed from their contemporaries was that they had limited government- a republic. Two kings acted as joint commanders-in-chief and could effectively veto each other's decisions. General executive power lay with Ephors- elected by popular vote of citizens for a one year term. Major decisions were decided by plebiscite. A council of elders comprising men over 60 with lifetime appointments presented options to the citizens who decided by popular vote. Spartans had rule of law and even kings could be tried and punished, even removed from power and banished.

The Roman Republic was largely based on the Spartan Republic. Roman and Spartan republics served as models for the American republic. Limited government in the form of these types of republics makes greater liberty more probable.

As far as cheerleading for Sparta against Persia, I'm afraid we're late to the game, but if Leonidas hadn't fought so well and Greece had fallen, it's quite plausible that there could be less liberty in the world today.

It was a main point of the movie that other Greeks didn't "get" the Spartans

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If I remember correctly (whitch I am doing less and less of now a days) everything we know of the Spartans was written by other Greeks. No primary writing of the Spartans has suvired to modern times. And I don't think any Spartan writting is refered to by the other Greeks who wrote about them. (Romans wrote about them too, but apparently they copied and commented on earlier greek writting. Certinly there we no romans around when Sparta was founded or was at its height.)

So if the other Greeks did not "get" the Spartans, neither do we, since everything we think we know about them was written by the other Greeks.

Sparta analogy

the Spartan military was facing a much larger force. Their defeat was inevitable if a conflict arrived. However, they decided to sell their lives at a horrendously large cost. Because of this, there was a very large chance the enemy would decide to rethink the attack and simply leave them be.

The same thing happens with gun owners. No gun owner can hold off the entire metropolitan police force, the entire SS, the entire Gestapo, or whoever. However, an armed man ready to fight to his death is probably going to be able to take out the first 5 officers through the door. This eats away at a large force, plus it makes every member of that force unwilling to be the first man in.

Think of it this way. If every Jew in Germany in 1935 had bought a rifle, and then in 1940, when the Nazi SS kicked in the door of the first Jewish residence was met by gunfire? Yes, that first guy would have been overcome by the SS, but he probably would have taken a few of them with him. Rinse and Repeat. Do that 10 times and how many SS are going to be willing to kick in the 11th door? How many SS are going to be left to kick in the 11th door?

The "molon labe" remark is all I can figure. Other instances of similar happenings? The all-American (okay, Texan) story of the Alamo. Random folks with guns defend a tiny church against the Mexican Army. They know they're going to lose. They do lose. they lose and die.
Bunker Hill. American forces in nice entrenchments shoot up British forces badly. American forces lose anyway and run off.
Battle of Camaron, Mexico. French Foreign Legion forces numbering 65 fights Mexican army of around 2000. After the Legionnaires run out of ammo, they perform a bayonet charge into the enemy. Yep, they lose too. Most of 'em die.
Lots of cases of the little guy standing up to the big guy and losing.

We've all seen the bumper-sticker that exclaims "My other car is a broom."

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I once had one that said, My other car is an F-15

Here's how they're related

Man, i wish this were really a movie. Seriously.

The "molon labe" remark is all I can figure. Other instances of similar happenings? The all-American (okay, Texan) story of the Alamo. Random folks with guns defend a tiny church against the Mexican Army. They know they're going to lose. They do lose. they lose and die.
Bunker Hill. American forces in nice entrenchments shoot up British forces badly. American forces lose anyway and run off.
Battle of Camaron, Mexico. French Foreign Legion forces numbering 65 fights Mexican army of around 2000. After the Legionnaires run out of ammo, they perform a bayonet charge into the enemy. Yep, they lose too. Most of 'em die.
Lots of cases of the little guy standing up to the big guy and losing.

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Funny, in two of those cases, the stand by the little guy gave the other little guys the kahunas to get together and become a lot of well-armed little guys and win.

Man, i wish this were really a movie. Seriously.

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Oh man, I'd pay a bunch to see a full-length feature of that!

Thermopylae is not about patriotism. Thermopylae is about the willingness to accept and even embrace death for a cause or ideal. I'm not talking suicide bombers here, either.

The appeal of the story of Thermopylae is that the Spartans went against all odds and chose to die defending the retreat of their fellow Greeks rather than attempt to save their own lives. Also, Leonidas is attributed with so many wonderful one-liners (historically, not just in the movie) that is lends itself to dramtic retelling.

I had a great opportunity to talk to Steven Pressfield when he visited West Point. His book, Gates of fire, is a far more accurate representation of Spartan life and the battle itself than 300 is. Frank Miller is a great writer in his own rite, but his version of the story is much more a modern metaphor for decency and democray versus barabarism and totalitarianism. The Spartans were not perfect by a long shot, but in this instance, they were the perfect heroes.

The Greek apparently translates a bit differently than is typically mentioned, which to many, makes the statement all the more significant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe

"Having come, take them."

As in, deal with us first, then take them after our death and/or defeat. No doubt is left as to the determination of those who stood.

Because the Spartans, like us, were free men, and like me, had rock hard abs.

Top Gun - people went GaGa and wanted to be pilots. Excuse me, naval aviators.

The Hunt for Red October - more GaGa and people joined up to become submariners.

Both admirable things to do and based in reality, even if the motivation comes from fiction.

300 - sorry, you can't join the Spartans, and you can't throw a spear in semi-slow-mo, so people adopted a slogan.

Braveheart - more of the same: no beheading hoards to join, but you can yelp "they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!" 'till you're mute and your throat glows cherry red.

At least the first two films weren't ridiculously atrocious (it really is too bad history is mocked for cash by the studios). However, all four films had the same effect on some people as several years of steroid abuse. Good on those who knew and respected the histories before the films.

I like the sentiment of MOLON LABE, but I'm not going to have it tattooed on the inside of my bottom lip or stenciled on the rear window of my vehicle. Although, once, I did have COLON SLOBE printed on some t-shirts I gave away after a Mountain Oyster eating contest I sponsored following a local 5K race.

No offense, but as a gun owner and a 2A supporter, I have no desire to be identified with the Spartans via 300. Just as I'm sure people who wear kilts don't want to be identified with Mel Gibson a la Braveheart.

Quote:

For what it's worth, I do not fear Persians, Arabians or any other Middle Easterners. I do fear socialist/fascist leaning governments that insist on meddling in the affairs of other countries as well as the personal business of their own citizens.

Just a friendly reminder from the Libertarians...

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Bingo! It kind of reminds you of the Founding Fathers and 'foreign entanglements', eh? Ike's warning on the MIC too.

I still love the words:

Molon Labe!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molon_labe

Catherine

300 - sorry, you can't join the Spartans, and you can't throw a spear in semi-slow-mo, so people adopted a slogan.

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The phrase "Molon Labe" has been in common use long before that movie came out!

Especially since they didn't say it in Greek in the movie.

Gator is correct. The phrase in this context goes back to the early days of TFL. IIRC it was inspired by the novel "Gates of Fire." Not the film "300" or the graphic novel. There was a thread on the history of the phrase a while back, but I can't find it now. The line has been known for thousands of years and crops up in one form or another over and over again. In this context I believe someone posted the Spartan story and the line on a blog in the late Clinton era and it caught on in the forums.

Comparing the Spartans to citizen soldiers doesn't really cut it. There were no male "non-soldier" citizens. It was the ultimate militaristic society

For what it's worth, I do not fear Persians, Arabians or any other Middle Easterners. I do fear socialist/fascist leaning governments that insist on meddling in the affairs of other countries as well as the personal business of their own citizens.

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Me to