Broke up a fight tonight

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conw

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Around 9:45 tonight I was going to see a friend inside a diner inside of a strip-mall-esque location that is square with a "+" shaped set of corridors leading to shops on the inside (outdoors also). Here is a pic - I was past the last sign you see on the left:

6a00d8345197c969e201127968507b28a4-800wi.jpg



I have always had a sketchy feeling about this enclosed area, especially at night when it is much more abandoned than you would imagine from the photo. I had my umbrella, a blackjack in my pocket, and my 9mm in my waistband.

As I was leaving the diner, WHAM I see a guy go down in front of the door. A young guy (caucasian, short brown hair), and someone also young (later I saw he was middle Eastern and had curly hair and a pink shirt) is on top of him punching him in the head. The guy wasn't doing a very good job, the punches looked very weak. My first thought, looking through the door, was "jab your umbrella into the guy on top and get him off the other guy." Then I thought, "he could have a knife." So I went outside and looked around, saw a few people standing off to the side laughing.

I said "Break it up, get out of here" in my best "serious" voice. I wanted to leave and they were in my way, and I was holding my umbrella with a mixed grip. My intuition told me I was safe, but I wasn't sure if they were going to stop fighting. Then WHAM, up runs a red-haired skater-looking kid and kicks the guy who's down in the ribs. One of the girls had her phone out and was laughing and either taping or photographing it.

I said "Seriously, get out of here now. I'm not joking." Still assuming at this point they were all equally invested in fighting. It's raining like heck at this point, and the guy who was on the ground walked off one way and the other two guys started to leave. They turned to me and said "Man, what it is, he's a []. That's what it is." And I said "Go on. Leave."

A couple of men went outside from the diner and I said "I think it's broken up." I said to call the police anyway. The family who was eating there left and the kids were crying - apparently they saw a lot of what I saw.

A girl came outside very frantically, and said it was her boyfriend who had been beaten. I went to my car to get something, I forget what, and got back and asked if the police had been called. A really nice (and cute) Asian girl across the lobby was sort of tending to the guy who had gotten beaten, and he started talking a little.

At this point I realized the cops hadn't been called. People had miscommunicated, and everyone else thought someone had called the cops.

Apparently one of the guys knew him and accused him of stealing something a while back during their time together in high school. They ran into each other randomly and the middle Eastern guy pulled a small (1.5" blade he said) knife on him, held it up to him, and threatened to slit his throat. Then he started slamming him into the wall, hit him a few times, and they went down - that's when I saw them. He was concussed and quite bloody, multiple head gashes and had a "gauged" piercing ripped out, and got kicked in the crotch hard.

When the police arrived they took statements and I told them the ins and outs.

So here are some lessons I learned:
1) My first thought was right. The guy was being beaten for no reason.
2) My first impulse was wrong. I didn't need to use force to break up the fight, and if I had seriously hurt the guy with my umbrella like I wanted to then I would probably be in a lot of trouble. In Guilford County, NC there is an extremely racially tense atmosphere and the last thing I want is some kind of feud with Middle Easterners, publicized or not.
3) I got tunnel vision to some extent, didn't even see the guy coming to kick the downed kid. However, my back was to a door and my sides were partially shielded, so I was not at a very high risk of a surprise attack myself.
4) It's tricky getting involved in a fight. It could have just as easily been less pretty, and if I'd seen a knife out I probably would have drawn my gun and ordered the guy to drop it. I was running on complete adrenaline. As it was my gun never occurred to me because I, nor the guy on the ground, didn't face imminent death/grave harm.
5) Whether you are concerned for your own butt or not, be the one to call the cops. Better 3 people call the cops, than no one.
6) I really went with my gut and I didn't feel like I made any conscious choices. But I felt confident.
 
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I wouldn't beat myself up over acting on instinct man. We're hard-wire to act a certain way in crisis and it's been with us though many thousands of years of evolution.

In the end, you helped break up the fight and I think you did the right thing by not escalating the situation and helping the police.
 
Thanks. I think the biggest lessons for me were, trust your gut and beware of tunnel vision. I had a clear avenue of retreat (push door behind me) so I felt pretty good about my position. It was mostly auto-pilot.
 
Sounds like you did the right thing. The points I took home were the same you just reiterated... I think you also had an advantage knowing the local culture and could probably gauge the type of person you were likely to run into.

Obviously what you did was not 100% safe, but if everybody played it 100% safe we would all be in a lot more danger because no one would respect or fear an honest bystander.
I think it really gets the attention of these idiots when everyone stares and 5 different guys stand up and tell them to stuff it. Depends on the venue and culture, of course.

My main thought as to how it would be likely to "go ugly" would be if the first person threatened you with the knife. Given your proximity, you might have been forced to draw depending on how it evolved (although the door and an umbrella would probably deter him adequately).
That's what gives me pause often... Recalibrating my reactions to not escalate things unnecessarily. This situation would've been a challenge.

Anyhow, really sounds like you did the right thing regardless.

Oh yes, your point is very very true regarding poor communication and diffusion of responsibility. It's almost universal with even small groups. One of the things they teach with regard to medical response is to very specifically delegate tasks "You, sir/ma'am!! (loud, point, eye contact) Call the police (EMS) and come tell me right away after you get reach them!"
 
conwict said:
I, nor the guy on the ground, didn't face imminent death/grave harm.
Click to expand...

The guy on the ground seems like he could have used deadly force against the Middle Eastern guy when this happened:

conwict said:
They ran into each other randomly and the middle Eastern guy pulled a small (1.5" blade he said) knife on him, held it up to him, and threatened to slit his throat. Then he started slamming him into the wall, hit him a few times, and they went down...
Click to expand...

Would the guy on the ground have been justified to draw and shoot when the knife was drawn and the threat to slit his throat made? Jeopardy, Ability, and Means were all present.
 
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Sam, I think he absolutely would have been justified. But by the time I was out there I didn't see the knife, as apparently the main aggressor put it away when he started beating the poor dude.

I even talked to him a little afterward trying to console him a little, said some things like "Man I know you feel like crap right now, but there's really nothing to be ashamed of." And a few other things. At the very end (the guy was pretty shaken but not sobbing or anything) I suggested he consider applying for his carry permit, but he sort of dismissed the idea. The whole topic of my carrying came up when I was talking to the police, since I am required by NC law to tell them I'm carrying a firearm. And they were very approving of that, and we even discussed - the cops and I - how different it would have been if I'd seen the kid being threatened by a knife.
 
Another thing is that they took his wallet, which is a good thing in terms of being able to charge them with a felony.
 
Good job breaking up the fight, it sounds like you did the best you could.

Regarding the 911 call, when I was in lifeguard training, they taught us to make eye contact with someone and tell them to call 911. If you just say it out load without directing at a specific person then everyone will think that everyone else is calling. Since I learned this I make sure to call 911 whenever I hear someone say that, it's better to have too many caller than no callers.
 
Yes...this is a huge lesson for me, especially when someone needs medical attention.
 
Never assume anybody will listen to you if you just say "call the police". Either do it yourself to make sure it happens, or locate a store owner (motivated to end this), point straight at him and tell that person to "call 911". Contrary to TV shows, when you say "somebody call the police", most people will just remain gawking at the scene but won't want to get involved.

I'm glad you didn't personally step in and get physically involved. You really don't know what is happening, perhaps the guy on top was defending himself against an attack begun by the other, or he/she may have friends more than willing to jump you from behind if they think you are trying back-up the other guy.
 
Yep, rule 1 is to assign someone to call the police.

Next is to not become and "add" (additional variable) to the situation, this can sometimes turn both parties on you if they're equally confused as to what your intent is. Either way, one party will turn on you.

Just watch, if you have a camera phone, record the fight. If a weapon is drawn, then you have something usable if you do feel the need to draw in this person's defense.

The problem is....you don't know who's defending who, namely who's the primary instigator, thus becoming an add by drawing can easily get you in deep doo-doo.
 
As has already been said, with any emergent situation, designate tasks to people.

For example, with CPR, you *always* point to someone, make eye contact, and order them to call 911, regardless of whether or not they have already been called according to others. Emergencies tend to create chaos amongst most people who just go into panic mode or freeze once something out of the ordinary occurs.

Other than that, it would seem as if you did an excellent job given the chaotic circumstances.
 
I think it's kinda sad that many people will take their phone to video tape something like that before they would think of calling the cops. It really is difficult to get people to call the cops when something happens like this in public.
 
It's even more sad when one of the perp's friends is taping it with a phone, and laughing.
 
It's even more sad when one of the perp's friends is taping it with a phone, and laughing.
Click to expand...

Running with that type of crowd,the girl recording and laughing,will inevitably be videotaped herself while getting her ass whooped and being laughed at.


On topic, in this type of situation could you get in trouble for drawing your weapon to stop the fight if you felt the guy could be seriously hurt,or would there have to be a weapon involved with the two parties?

My concern with drawing the weapon, I don't know what his idiot friends are gonna do, what if they try to get it away from you? What then?
 
I do not get involved in other peoples disputes. I do not chase purse snatchers or investigate odd happenings in dark alleys. I will act to protect another person if I am certain that failure to act will result in a innocent person being killed right now, right this second. Other than that, I mind my own.
 
Conwict....Great job...sounds like you used just the right combination of force and brains.
Guess it's easy to deal with things at a distance, but few are willing to get involved with "up-close and personal"...Doesn't sound like the victim chose that scenario for an evening out with his girlfriend. The attacker could have messed him up worse, with the knife...You
may not consider yourself a hero, but you did what others only wish they had the nerve to do...what you thought was right...Again...Great Job!!!
 
Thanks tacbandit.

Water Garden, I would not have expected to intervene in such a situation, but as I said it was like I was on autopilot and knew exactly what to do. I am sure there are many more situations, probability-wise, that I would not have intervened in, but I happened to be at this one. I totally get where you're coming from...purse-snatching? Heck no.

Warhawk83 wrote

On topic, in this type of situation could you get in trouble for drawing your weapon to stop the fight if you felt the guy could be seriously hurt,or would there have to be a weapon involved with the two parties?

My concern with drawing the weapon, I don't know what his idiot friends are gonna do, what if they try to get it away from you? What then?
Click to expand...

In NC, I can use lethal force to protect myself from grave bodily harm or death, or to protect someone else who is justified for the same reasons. That is why it is very complicated to intervene in a fight where you don't know who started it - it's possible that a criminal beat within an inch of life wouldn't be justified using deadly force...and by extension you wouldn't.

As for drawing a gun, I was essentially in the best position possible by sheer luck. I had room to move around, but my back was to a door and 2 walls.
 
First, let me say that I think your response was 100% appropriate, Conwict. The decision to draw is a fine line when the altercation does not involve you directly. In this case, I'd like to think I would have reacted in a very similar fashion. As a general rule, I agree with other posters in that it is best to limit my involvement in the disputes of others.

This case, however, would be a different story altogether, at least in my mind. I would clearly see the need to intervene on behalf of the victim(s). I usually try to avoid hypotheticals, but I'm wondering what others would do here. I think these two situations illustrate how each incident has many variables to be considered (setting, participants involved, etc.). Though this story does not indicate this, it is my understanding from radio news reports that this beating continued for several minutes with the mother being completely defenseless.
 
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I just skimmed quickly so my only comment at this time is:

It is also my experience that people are hesitant to dial 911. I have noticed it is the same for crimes, fire, accidents or other hazards.

They think someone else did or will. They do not want to be involved. I have learned to be ready with the info the 911 operator requires. For example they need a location such as as cross streets or street address possibly a mile marker.

On 2 occasions I called in fires and talked to the arson investigator within a week of each. Both knew me beforehand. It was actually pretty interesting.
 
I was a bouncer at a bar and it is my experience that verbally telling people to "knock it off" works 99.99 percent of the time. I think you handled the situation perfectly. Oh and I also remember from cpr class to always make eye contact with someone, point and say "YOU, CALL 911"
 
Thanks a lot eagle! I really appreciate the feedback. Learning through experience can be the best way to learn. And the 911 lesson is probably even more important.
 
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