So. Almost got into a fight today.

[BullfrogKen]

the naked prophet said: I'm convinced that nobody has knife training . . . . But there don't seem to be any reputable courses that deal with knives the way you can get a good class on fighting with a gun.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Mr. Nobody. And say hello to my wife, Mrs. Nobody.


InSights Training offers some great knife training classes.


TwitchALot, get your hands out of your pockets. Don't rely on tools and tricks to solve the problem for you. The only way we can solve problems is to use our minds; the tools just give us options.

As was mentioned earlier, you felt for whatever reasons that you might have to get yourself involved in a fight, and had already put your hands on the lethal weapon you carried with you. It would be a challenge to explain why you felt that a fight was imminent, but rather avail yourself of what you described as an extremely long opportunity to remove yourself from it, you not only hung around, but prepared yourself to employ a deadly weapon to use in it.

I'm not suggesting you were wrong, or would be found wrong had that happened. I am suggesting you'd have a really tough time explaining it. And over what? Hot sauce?


John Farnam describes how most fights young people "find" themselves getting in can be avoided by following a few simple rules: Don't go to stupid places, with stupid people, doing stupid things.


Those folks might be your friends. But you're not their mother. How far are you willing to go to protect them from stupid decisions? If they won't heed a stern, "We need to leave, now" . . . well . . . people sometimes should be afforded the opportunity to get what they beg for.

 

[Fred Fuller]

But there don't seem to be any reputable courses that deal with knives the way you can get a good class on fighting with a gun.

Not correct. In addition to BFK's suggestion above, let me add Southnarc's IEK (In- Extremis Knife) course.

http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp

See the IEK Course Overview at http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/In-Extremis Knife course overview.pdf , the class schedule is at the link above.

And do some study on the Nike Defense as well. Given a chance to beat feet and avoid an altercation, think seriously about taking it rather than going to fist, blade or gun- unless you are physically attacked without provocation and can't avoid it. It's been said that the only fights you really win are those you avoid. Remember what it costs to hire a lawyer and pay hospital bills...

I have a killer garden salsa recipe, you want hot sauce, PM me and I'll share it with you.

lpl/nc

 

[up_onus]

i didnt read thru every response....but....
think on this... if you had done things differently and there was a fight, and you pulled your "weapon", imagine the rest of your wonderful day at the police station/jail? and all the fun court time, and all the court/lawyer fees, and ALL the other things that go along with that.

i say, you DID the right thing.
good job.

 

[wulfbyte]

OK - I think I need to throw in my $.02 as well.

I see a lot of people in this thread asking things like "why eat at 1AM?" or "why didn't you just leave?"or "why didn't you call 911?".

It does make me wonder why does this come up when we mostly assume we live in a free country where we can eat in a public restaurant at any time without fear of being hurt. When we all mostly know that 911 response times are shamefully high. When we all mostly believe in the right to bear arms and defend ourselves and those we care for.

Granted, some tactical and strategic mistakes were made and those should be addressed, but lets not throw away everything we believe in, in trying to avoid a bad situation.

I think Twitchalot did an excellent job of keeping things at a level of control that did not erupt into violence. I think it commendable that he wanted to stay near those who may not have been so able to defend themselves as he.

He states that when the fellow left, he spoke with others there to determine if his assessments had been near the mark. He came here asking for additional critique and I thinks that speaks volumes for someone trying to be responsible and to refine his methods to do even better in the next questionable encounter.

To address some specifics:
Tactical - hands in your pockets is not a good choice for all the reasons others have so well put forth. The issues of distance, placement and awareness have been mostly addressed as well. I would add that your missing his not wearing shoes is a big one. When I do a threat assessment, I try to observe as much about the potential threat as possible, clothing and shoes (or the lack of them) often give away a good deal of information. Point made and I won't belabor it further. Otherwise, I think you did a good job of being aware of the layout of the possible engagement area; possible allies and further threats within the context of that engagement area; and were formulating a plan without being tied to any specific course of action. De-escalation is always the first choice, and trying to find the balance between lowering a threat and guessing at the psychology that motivates that threat to increase is what makes some people diplomats and others not. Often having the training and tools at hand gives a person the confidence that others detect and makes these attempts all the more effective.

Strategic - This is where a lot of the statements made about having your hand on your knife come into play. Tactically, it may appear to be a good decision, but puts you in a position of winning the battle at the expense of the war. I know that the methods that I carry my weapons permits me to access them easily with only a slight amount of additional effort. Placing my hands on them in preparation for their use gains me very little tactically, but costs me a lot strategically. Your carry methods might differ, but I would be greatly surprised if the results were much different in your case.

You should consider your knife to be every bit a weapon as a firearm and the only difference being the range at which you can engage. The results will be the same; you will make every effort with your weapon to halt a deadly threat.

Having a weapon on your person in an accessible manner should be preparation enough to bring it into play when the threat escalates to the deadly force level. If it was accessible, then you had no need to have your hand on it, and if it wasn't then you need to rethink how and why you carry.

By placing your hand on your weapon, you acknowledge the threat to be immanent, but you do not take further action, so to an outside observer, is the threat there or isn't it? Use of deadly force is a tricky subject where the law is concerned and I am in no position to offer advice on it, but it hinges very strongly on perception. Not only your perception of events at the time but also of others perceptions of you and your actions then and for a great deal of time afterwards and much removed from the details and emotions that occurred.

I think that if you continue to cast a critical eye to your own actions and address such issues as have been raised while keeping to your own moral compass, you will do fine.

 

[TwitchALot]

Sit back down, pull the cell phone, dial 911. He's not looking at you anymore, and you're just another guy with a phone to his head.

I just don't know any other way to say it. I could hear every conversation everyone in the "restaurant" was having. Think about a master bedroom in a typical house. The restaurant is smaller than that (the dining area, anyway).

Except you didn't enhance your defence, you literally tied your own hands (into your pockets). Try it with a friend -- I bet you can't pull your hands out before your friend lands a blow . And you'd better have very good balance to stay on your feet if you receive a good shove with both hands in your pockets.

I've done martial arts before, and a while back (I mean it), we did drills where a defender would stick his arm out and try to block. Another defender would leave his arms at his sides and try to do the same thing. Even though the distance is greater for the second defender, he got the block way more than the other guy did. I can't remember the explanation for it. As far as I go, I've experienced the same thing. Any attempt at a poke or sharp movement toward me has almost always generated a successful response. It might be my reaction time, it might be something else, but my experience is that it's more natural (and quicker) to get your hands from your side to a defensive position than it is to stick it out or have it "pre-ready."

As far as my stance goes, I was in a "Weaverish" stance.

Knife's a bad idea. Using one in a "simple" fistfight is a really good way to get locked up, even if the guy is much bigger than you. If you needed a weapon, the empty bottle in your hand would be good for reinforcing a hammerhand strike. And much easier to explain to the cops........

Using a gun is also a bad idea. No matter what happens it's a good way to give yourself a headache. There was a disparity of force, and quite frankly, I would have used it in this situation.


Okay look, everyone, about the hot sauce. It COULD NOT HAVE BEEN USED AS A WEAPON. PERIOD. End of story. It was an EMPTY, plastic (and I don't mean hard plastic- you have to squeeze it to get hot sauce out of it), hot sauce bottle.

As was mentioned earlier, you felt for whatever reasons that you might have to get yourself involved in a fight, and had already put your hands on the lethal weapon you carried with you. It would be a challenge to explain why you felt that a fight was imminent, but rather avail yourself of what you described as an extremely long opportunity to remove yourself from it, you not only hung around, but prepared yourself to employ a deadly weapon to use in it.

I didn't feel a fight was imminent, but I certainly felt that any provocation (which I obviously intended to avoid) may have escalated it into a fight.

Again, had I had a concealed firearm, I would have never gotten near it (I wouldn't have drawn it, I wouldn't have revealed it- it would have remained just the way it would in a normal setting). That should give you an idea of the situation in my eyes.

Tactical - hands in your pockets is not a good choice for all the reasons others have so well put forth. The issues of distance, placement and awareness have been mostly addressed as well. I would add that your missing his not wearing shoes is a big one. When I do a threat assessment, I try to observe as much about the potential threat as possible, clothing and shoes (or the lack of them) often give away a good deal of information. Point made and I won't belabor it further.

I was rather embarrassed I did not notice that as well. But it was just so close- maybe I'll take pictures of the place when I go next time (I don't have a camera though -_-) it was just not something I was concerned about at the moment. Smaller than a master bedroom in a typical house for sure, packed full (you could move around, but the tables were all close together and they were all taken). There just no space.

Strategic - This is where a lot of the statements made about having your hand on your knife come into play. Tactically, it may appear to be a good decision, but puts you in a position of winning the battle at the expense of the war. I know that the methods that I carry my weapons permits me to access them easily with only a slight amount of additional effort. Placing my hands on them in preparation for their use gains me very little tactically, but costs me a lot strategically. Your carry methods might differ, but I would be greatly surprised if the results were much different in your case.

You should consider your knife to be every bit a weapon as a firearm and the only difference being the range at which you can engage. The results will be the same; you will make every effort with your weapon to halt a deadly threat.

Having a weapon on your person in an accessible manner should be preparation enough to bring it into play when the threat escalates to the deadly force level. If it was accessible, then you had no need to have your hand on it, and if it wasn't then you need to rethink how and why you carry.

By placing your hand on your weapon, you acknowledge the threat to be immanent, but you do not take further action, so to an outside observer, is the threat there or isn't it? Use of deadly force is a tricky subject where the law is concerned and I am in no position to offer advice on it, but it hinges very strongly on perception. Not only your perception of events at the time but also of others perceptions of you and your actions then and for a great deal of time afterwards and much removed from the details and emotions that occurred.

I think that if you continue to cast a critical eye to your own actions and address such issues as have been raised while keeping to your own moral compass, you will do fine.

Again, had I had a firearm, it would have been a different story. I felt that the danger was enough to be ready for a fight, but I didn't feel it was great enough so that a fight could not possibly be avoided at that moment. I thought I could be diplomatic about it, but in case I couldn't, I wanted it to be ready. By the way- when I say my hand was on my knife in my pocket, I don't mean it was buried. I mean that I was ready to immediately deploy it (thumb on the thumb stub, knifed pulled to the top of the pocket but concealed). In this respect, I don't think it is all too different from bringing my hand up from a normal position (hands at the sides).

The difference between a knife and a firearm as I see it is I can prepare to deploy my knife without revealed it. Preparing to deploy a firearm in the same manner without revealing it is almost impossible, if not so, in my opinion. The way I had it ready would probably be equivalent to having your hand on the grip, ready to upholster immediately.

In the future, however, I will keep one hand out and free (if there is a need to be on the knife, that is- otherwise it'll be both hands). Thanks for the tips.


For the record- one of the other patrons there (post incident discussion- at the restaurant with everyone involved no less!) said he was freaked and was ready to chuck his chair (plastic chair, but I appreciate his willingness to do something if a fight had broken out) at the guy the whole time. From the opinions I got after talking to everyone else there, everyone recognized the guy as a potential threat. One of my friends actually remarked "Oh man, I definitely support the Second Amendment now," (he's from San Fran, if that means anything). So, take that as you will. Either way, a fight didn't break out, everything was good, and I learned a lot from the incident (as did others there). Again, thanks for the tips.

 

[Manan]

Just Leave

Life's too short kid. Just get up and leave. Just cuz you coulda done something, doesn't mean you shoulda. :banghead:

 

[strambo]

Again, had I had a concealed firearm, I would have never gotten near it (I wouldn't have drawn it, I wouldn't have revealed it- it would have remained just the way it would in a normal setting). That should give you an idea of the situation in my eyes.

But you were ready to gut him with a knife on a moments notice?

Seems you think hand on knife/use knife as 1st response is somehow "less lethal" than hand on gun/use gun as 1st response?

If I ever put my hand on my knife it will be because I think I'm moments away from causing rapid exsanguination in the object of my attention. No different then doing the same via firearm.

 

[meef]

He was highly aggressive to the others in the restaurant as well. Honestly, leaving didn't occur to me- if a fight broke out between that guy and other people (and it almost did, based on what I saw and the after-action discussion we had), I... just felt I had to be there for that.

You did, did you now?

Had to?

Might I ask why? And to what good purpose in your life and situation?

Hero syndrome can get one in a lot of trouble and cost one many things, not the least among them money, liberty and physical damage.


"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client felt deep within his heart that a fight was about to break out between a highly belligerent, aggressive individual and other people in the restaurant. And well, you know, he... just had to be there for that. Leaving never occurred to him. You do understand his reasoning, don't you?"

 

[Mr.Revolver]

Just a possibility here: if you wanted to call 911 and didn't want this loony to realize you were doing it, you could sit down at your table and get your friends to start chatting. Then call 911 and talk quietly and very calmly and casually, as if you're calling a friend. You can probably be a bit vague and have them still figure out what you're trying to say. "Hey, hi. It's me. I'm at the Taco Barn on 23rd Street. Why don't you come on out here?"

 

[TwitchALot]

Life's too short kid. Just get up and leave. Just cuz you coulda done something, doesn't mean you shoulda.

As far as my conscience goes, I did. And quite frankly, not only was the situation resolved peacefully, I learned some things that would help me if a more serious event were to occur in the future.

But you were ready to gut him with a knife on a moments notice?

Seems you think hand on knife/use knife as 1st response is somehow "less lethal" than hand on gun/use gun as 1st response?

If I ever put my hand on my knife it will be because I think I'm moments away from causing rapid exsanguination in the object of my attention. No different then doing the same via firearm.

You're still not getting it. I already said, had I had a concealed handgun on me, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. And yes, what I did is quite different from doing the same with a firearm. You put your hand on your gun and you immediately escalate the situation and make it worse. You put your hand in your pocket on your knife and you've done nothing of the sort while preparing yourself in case something does happen (ie. your deescalation attempts fail). I don't know any other way to make it more clear.

You did, did you now?

Had to?

Might I ask why? And to what good purpose in your life and situation?

Hero syndrome can get one in a lot of trouble and cost one many things, not the least among them money, liberty and physical damage.

My conscience? The lives of the other people there? What I don't understand is how some of you can carry concealed and then say, "if you can deescalate a situation and prevent other people from getting hurt, you shouldn't do so. Just get out of there." To me it's mind boggling- how can you say CCW prevents and stops crime with a straight face when in your mind, you'd do nothing of the sort. "CCW does prevent and stop crime... just not mine because I wouldn't do it."

It seems like you wouldn't even try to deescalate a situation when about a dozen other people have no idea what they're doing and are at risk. BG starts blasting up a school and with your CCW, you say to yourself, "well, I could stop this school shooting, but I'd be putting myself at risk, so I'm just going to get out of here."


Quite frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. But if I were in that situation, I'd put myself on the line, and truth be told, that's a decision left up to the individual. Everyone is willing to accept a different amount of risk, and with all due respect, just because you would run away from such a situation doesn't mean that a decision to stay and help the other people is "hero syndrome." Unless you're willing to call your position, "cowardly syndrome." I don't think anybody who does what he thinks is right because he thinks it is right sees himself as a hero.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client felt deep within his heart that a fight was about to break out between a highly belligerent, aggressive individual and other people in the restaurant. And well, you know, he... just had to be there for that. Leaving never occurred to him. You do understand his reasoning, don't you?"

As I often say to gun control advocates, "just because you can't do something well doesn't mean everyone else can't do it well." A poor defense, but irrelevant in this case all the same.

Just a possibility here: if you wanted to call 911 and didn't want this loony to realize you were doing it, you could sit down at your table and get your friends to start chatting. Then call 911 and talk quietly and very calmly and casually, as if you're calling a friend. You can probably be a bit vague and have them still figure out what you're trying to say. "Hey, hi. It's me. I'm at the Taco Barn on 23rd Street. Why don't you come on out here?"

Thanks for the tip. It would have been tough at the time- he was sitting diagonally from me facing me, and at the time, the situation had cooled off a bit, so I think doing anything to jeopardize that would have been a mistake. Excellent advice all the same, though.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Many folks might consider this is the reason they want a CCW (against the knife assault thinking).

One of those things that come around for some, more than others.

It played out and it was typed out (very long also)

 

[meef]

TwitchALot:

What I don't understand is how some of you can carry concealed and then say, "if you can deescalate a situation and prevent other people from getting hurt, you shouldn't do so. Just get out of there." To me it's mind boggling- how can you say CCW prevents and stops crime with a straight face when in your mind, you'd do nothing of the sort. "CCW does prevent and stop crime... just not mine because I wouldn't do it."

I carry primarily for one reason only - the protection of me and mine if I encounter a situation to which there is no other response for our safety or survival than the application of deadly force. I do not carry to protect the general public at large. Regarding CCW preventing and stopping crime - for me, that's at the personal level. I am not a cop - a profession which has no duty to protect me as an individual, as I'm sure you know.

TwitchALot:

It seems like you wouldn't even try to deescalate a situation when about a dozen other people have no idea what they're doing and are at risk. BG starts blasting up a school and with your CCW, you say to yourself, "well, I could stop this school shooting, but I'd be putting myself at risk, so I'm just going to get out of here."

Honestly, that's a bit of a stretch relative to the original intent (as I understand it) of this thread. I rarely get involved in the "what if" scenario postings.

TwitchALot:

But if I were in that situation, I'd put myself on the line, and truth be told, that's a decision left up to the individual. Everyone is willing to accept a different amount of risk, and with all due respect, just because you would run away from such a situation doesn't mean that a decision to stay and help the other people is "hero syndrome." Unless you're willing to call your position, "cowardly syndrome." I don't think anybody who does what he thinks is right because he thinks it is right sees himself as a hero.

Again, please note that the above "school shooting" scenario or such was never a part of this thread and I haven't said what I would do in such a situation. What I did say is what I wouldn't do in something similar to your original posting. Which is I wouldn't stick around because I thought a fight might be brewing and I could have a chance to save the day.

But, as you also noted, "that's a decision left up to the individual". Your points are and have been thoughtful and well-spoken. Given your tendency to want to get involved and protect, perhaps a career in law enforcement on the streets might be appropriate? I'm not being facetious with that one, either.

You ended your first posting asking for critique with:

Was I right to be ready with my knife, or should I have just been ready to go hand to hand (I'm no pushover when it comes to that, even though I'm small and light)? I did everything in my power to deescalate the situation, so I assumed that if that knife had to come out, it would have been serious. But was this the right course of action (it stayed concealed the whole time)?

Any other comments, suggestions, evaluations, tips for the future?

That's been my intent here. My suggestions have been primarily to get the hell out of Dodge whenever possible when witnessing a potentially nasty situation brewing. You prefer to stick around and get involved.

We have different initial courses of action.

 

[jeepmor]

Who the hell eats tacos at 0100 am?

People who work nightshift and those that go out during the evenings, particularly weekends. He's in Cali, it's nice weather there this time of year. A guy like this would have likely been ignored with me only keeping a slight eye on him. Eye contact with drunk bozos instigates them. However, I don't usually have a size discrepancy with morons like this. That makes the cocky ones much more polite when their threatening everyone around them and some larger individual gets close because he wants some hotsauce.

Tips for the future reference

Tiny pupils - uppers, like meth or coke
Big pupils - possibly hallucinogens, but usually mellow folk
Red eyes - pot or dead drunk; potheads are mellow, drunk folks get agressive.
Other drugs - I have no idea.

This moron was likely drunk with a little something else tossed in for good measure. You did fine, I don't see where you were ever in danger or even close to fighting. He flared up, you apologized, he felt in control, that's usually all it takes. I will agree though, less pocket pool in case it did become a physical confrontation. But if that was the case, if it went physical, I would have just stomped on his toes.

However, some of the knives on the market would add a nice umph behind a punch with it being held like a roll of quarters and not opened.

Don't go to stupid places, with stupid people, doing stupid things.

That's funny right there, good sound advice, but still funny. Youth and stupidity are never that far apart in my experience.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Hands in pockets? (your primary weakness at the moment)
You didn't even notice that the guy was barefoot? (his most obvious vulnerability)

My advice would be to quit playing with your toys and start using your brain.

BTW, people that frequent tacqerias at 1AM tend to be drunk and obnoxious.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

I really don't see how every encounter here becomes a "tactical" situation. You ran across a wacko hothead. You didn't escalate the situation. Who cares where your hands were?

 

[dawg23]

OK...I didn't read the entire thread. But after the first page and a half, I'll add the following:

1. I wasn't there, but it sure doesn't sound as if you would have been justified in using deadly force. Even if he decked you. Bringing a knife to a fistfight is frowned upon by most DA's and most juries. In California, I'd say you would probably had a lot of "splainin" to do (as Ricky Ricardo used to tell Lucy).

2. In most jurisdictions, the same "rules of engagement" apply to knives and pistols. If you weren't justified in shooting the guy, you probably weren't justified in pulling a knife.

3. So quit relying on a knife in that sort of confrontation. Clear out, go elsewhere. back down if necessary. You did little, if anything, wrong to alienate the guy. Still....apologize and clear out.

4. Assuming you ever get into a situation in which deadly force is justified, I hope you have had some knife training. Southnarc and Michael DeBethencourt are two of the best. And, before you engage in one, remember the first rule of knife-fighting....."Everybody gets cut."

Good luck. Stay safe.

 

[NewShooter]

"If someone disagrees with that or has other suggestions, feel free."

Twitchalot, those are your words above so please dont get upset when people do as you asked.
The first thing I would change is get your hands out since he was unarmed.
2nd, If you think a knife is any lees lethal than a gun you should trade it in for oc spray or a stun gun.
Also, do some research on carry options. A gun can be brought into battery just as quick as a knife. In a couple years you may want that option.

 

[TwitchALot]

Many folks might consider this is the reason they want a CCW (against the knife assault thinking).

California. Ventura County. Cough.

Not that I didn't want a CCW before this anyway.

Honestly, that's a bit of a stretch relative to the original intent (as I understand it) of this thread. I rarely get involved in the "what if" scenario postings.

That's not the point. The point, as you understand, is that the decision to shoot should be left to the individual. My preference is to help if possible, even if it puts myself at risk. Your preference, as stated, is different, but that is all it is- no more right or no more wrong than mine, at least in this case. I think some people are still confused about that.

[QUOTE\But, as you also noted, "that's a decision left up to the individual". Your points are and have been thoughtful and well-spoken. Given your tendency to want to get involved and protect, perhaps a career in law enforcement on the streets might be appropriate? I'm not being facetious with that one, either.[/QUOTE]

Thought about it. Might not be so far off. But I'm going to finish college first.

That's funny right there, good sound advice, but still funny. Youth and stupidity are never that far apart in my experience.

Then, neither is age and stupidity.

Hands in pockets? (your primary weakness at the moment)
You didn't even notice that the guy was barefoot? (his most obvious vulnerability)

My advice would be to quit playing with your toys and start using your brain.

BTW, people that frequent tacqerias at 1AM tend to be drunk and obnoxious.

In the future, I'll keep one hand free (at least). But no, I didn't notice the guy was bare foot. I was not concerned about his feet at the moment. And the place was packed, so I'm not sure what "tacqerias" you frequent, but at least here, most people are alive and kicking (and sober) at the hour, at least during this time of the year.

You didn't escalate the situation. Who cares where your hands were?

Because the situation could have escalated, and in the future, I may not be so lucky.

Twitchalot, those are your words above so please dont get upset when people do as you asked.

I'm not upset, I'm just tired of repeating myself...

The first thing I would change is get your hands out since he was unarmed. 2nd, If you think a knife is any lees lethal than a gun you should trade it in for oc spray or a stun gun.

California apparently isn't fond of Fox Labs, and if I could afford a decent taser, I'd probably get a handgun (oh wait, I have to wait until I'm 21 for that ).

Also, do some research on carry options. A gun can be brought into battery just as quick as a knife. In a couple years you may want that option.

I've wanted the "option" for a long time now. It's not going to happen for a while (probably more than a couple years).

 

[poor_richard]

if a fight broke out between that guy and other people (and it almost did, based on what I saw and the after-action discussion we had), I... just felt I had to be there for that.

That isn't exactly articulating a reasonable fear for your life, which is required for using the lethal force you were contemplating.

I think at this point you need to run through your mind and determine what would have happened if you had killed the guy. After all, the knife is for putting down a deadly threat, and you would need to articulate that in court. Make no mistake, once you brought the knife into the situation, you would have had to articulate fear of eminent death, irregardless of if there was a death or not.

My conscience? The lives of the other people there? What I don't understand is how some of you can carry concealed and then say, "if you can deescalate a situation and prevent other people from getting hurt, you shouldn't do so. Just get out of there." To me it's mind boggling- how can you say CCW prevents and stops crime with a straight face when in your mind, you'd do nothing of the sort. "CCW does prevent and stop crime... just not mine because I wouldn't do it."

You’ve painted a scenario in which the option of calling the police was impossible. That’s faulty thinking. If you thought that you were needed to deescalate things, then the police were probably needed. At the time you probably were more concerned with what was happening then and there, than how you could discretely call the police. It’s understandable that you didn’t call them at the time, but this thread was started under the theme of determining how you could have handled it better, and calling the police may well have been one way of doing that. Another would have been to recognize the security measures taken by the restaurant owners as a “red flag”. While it’s understandable that you believed that you couldn’t have called the police, what you should be doing is trying to think of how you could have called them. Maybe you could have excused yourself and walked away from the restaurant to make the call, I don’t know. We don’t know the layout or particulars, but there are always options. The knife is for when those options have expired, and “just had to be there” for others, is not a failure of the options; it’s a choice to remain in a volatile situation. While I fully support your right to remaine there, and I don’t think you should have to “run away” from something when you are not the aggressor, the courts and juries may disagree with me. You have to decide if you are willing to take that risk. IOW: are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life in prison, and all your money in lawyer fees to protect other people who didn’t have the sense to do something about he situation when they could have?

It seems like you wouldn't even try to deescalate a situation when about a dozen other people have no idea what they're doing and are at risk. BG starts blasting up a school and with your CCW, you say to yourself, "well, I could stop this school shooting, but I'd be putting myself at risk, so I'm just going to get out of here."

This has nothing to do with the situation you were involved in. It’s called a “straw argument”. If you think they are even similar, then you are probably exercising poor judgment, and probably have and are giving us a poor accounting of the situation.

Quite frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. But if I were in that situation, I'd put myself on the line, and truth be told, that's a decision left up to the individual.

Putting yourself in the line of fire is admirable to a certain degree. However, understand that society tends to frown upon people other than LEO doing such things, and you could face grave repercussions as a result. We’re not talking about survival here. We’re talking about prison, bankruptcy, and a ruined life. If you’re willing to accept that for someone else’s safety in a fist fight, then that’s your decision to make.

Everyone is willing to accept a different amount of risk, and with all due respect, just because you would run away from such a situation doesn't mean that a decision to stay and help the other people is "hero syndrome." Unless you're willing to call your position, "cowardly syndrome." I don't think anybody who does what he thinks is right because he thinks it is right sees himself as a hero.

You asked for people’s advice on the Internet. Getting offended, and sniping back with derogatory comments makes you come off as a sort of “hot head”. I’m not saying you are, just saying that’s how it comes across. It also furthers the idea that you really didn’t “have to” be there.

That’s just my response to some of the things you’ve said so far in this thread. I’m not saying that you were right or wrong. That’s up to you to decide. These were just my observations, and ideas.


That said. Here are my opinions on the situation in which you were involved

First, you seem to think that being prepared to deploy your knife is different than being prepared to deploy a gun. I think that is a mistake. They are both considered “lethal force”, and even if you don’t kill someone with either, you will be treated as if you deployed “lethal force”. My advice would be to make sure you could articulate reasonable fear for your life before you reach for either.

Second, you seem to take the stance that calling the police was not an option. I think that “paints you into a corner”, and while I can’t say if it’s possible or not, I strongly urge you to consider it in hindsight. If that means getting up and leaving your friends there fine, if it means not staying when you saw the bars on the counter window, even better. Remember, you were/are considering “lethal force” for… what? Honor? Nobility? Again, if that is a risk you chose to take, then so be it. Just make sure you understand the risk. Seriously, sit down and think it through by starting with, “How could I have called the cops?” Don’t let the answer be in the negative. You may have to make some sacrifices to come to a solution (you may have to leave people at risk), but find several solutions. You can then decide it they are worth it to you.


One more thing. If you ever deploy a knife in a SD situation (this doesn’t sound like one), or any force on force situation, make sure you use it decisively. If your life is on the line, the last thing I think you should do at cutting distance is hesitate. If your life isn’t on the line, then the knife shouldn’t be an option.

That’s just my $.02. You ultimately have to decide whether/or not your actions are worth the risk they entail. Please understand that IANAL, and I have no experience in such matters. I’m just some guy on the Internet giving free advice. Consider it worth what you paid for it.

 

[slabuda]

my take

loads of good advice the best being, wait your turn and manners. Having said that keep yer hands out of you pockets!! Attached is a pic of what I do when confronted with what "may" potentially be a situation. I am always non-agressive, even apologetic. If something did happen you always will say, hey I asked for no trouble and appologized. He was nuts had a look in his eyes like a wild animal, I thought he was high on drugs.

 

[TwitchALot]

That isn't exactly articulating a reasonable fear for your life, which is required for using the lethal force you were contemplating.

I think at this point you need to run through your mind and determine what would have happened if you had killed the guy. After all, the knife is for putting down a deadly threat, and you would need to articulate that in court. Make no mistake, once you brought the knife into the situation, you would have had to articulate fear of eminent death, irregardless of if there was a death or not.

"Uh, yeah. I'm 5'3'' 110 pounds. That guy was probably 6'4'' 250+ pounds. He couldn't be reasoned with. He couldn't be talked to. Ask any one of the... dozen plus witnesses there. No shoes, probably on something. And then he took a swing at my head for no good reason. Probably could have taken it off- his arm and my head were about the same size." Blah blah blah, not going to get into anything fancy (here, that is).

You’ve painted a scenario in which the option of calling the police was impossible. That’s faulty thinking. If you thought that you were needed to deescalate things, then the police were probably needed.

I don't understand how other people can blatantly flip their position around and not realize it. I haven't seen your posts (or I don't remember them), but I haven't seen anyone here who always needed police to deescalate a situation. I don't even know where this came from.

We don’t know the layout or particulars, but there are always options. The knife is for when those options have expired, and “just had to be there” for others, is not a failure of the options; it’s a choice to remain in a volatile situation.

Could I have called the police? Sure. I could have stepped on the street and called them. But would it have escalated the situation in my opinion? Yes. Was it necessary at the time in my opinion? No.

So, yes, I could have probably made the call, but at the same, I really couldn't. Think of your average restaurant. Think the opposite of it, and you may be close to what this place is like. You want to eat at this place? You park on the street- no parking lot. You want to go to the bathroom? Too bad- there is none. You want to walk out the door and make a call to the police? Too bad- there is no door to the place. I'll tell you right now- not a good place from a strategic standpoint, given all the factors.

While I fully support your right to remaine there, and I don’t think you should have to “run away” from something when you are not the aggressor, the courts and juries may disagree with me. You have to decide if you are willing to take that risk. IOW: are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life in prison, and all your money in lawyer fees to protect other people who didn’t have the sense to do something about he situation when they could have?

And here's the annoying part. I have already made that decision. Yet other people are still insisting that I should conform to what they would have done in the situation (beat it), and they are still arguing with me about it as if it's not a personal decision for an individual to make.

This has nothing to do with the situation you were involved in. It’s called a “straw argument”. If you think they are even similar, then you are probably exercising poor judgment, and probably have and are giving us a poor accounting of the situation.

It's exactly the same in principle. You and others are in a scenario where your lives may be at stake. You have the potential to end that scenario. You can choose to walk way or end it. That's it. That's all we're discussing at this point. Some have said to walk away after I've affirmed my personal decision in such circumstances to help end the scenario. I'm not going to criticize them for that decision- hey, you want to watch for your back, and your family, and leave everyone else? That's your business. Nothing wrong with that.

At the same time, I'd like others here to respect MY decision and stop trying to change that. I've made my choice, and if you'd leave, that's your business. I'm not going to lecture you about that personal decision, you shouldn't be lecturing me about mine.

And let me be clear about this- this is no longer "advice." This is some of you trying to convince me that I should have left, when I've already stated that I wouldn't have, won't, and that's my choice (and you're free to make yours). Yet it still keeps being repeated, and it's getting rather annoying.

Putting yourself in the line of fire is admirable to a certain degree. However, understand that society tends to frown upon people other than LEO doing such things, and you could face grave repercussions as a result. We’re not talking about survival here. We’re talking about prison, bankruptcy, and a ruined life. If you’re willing to accept that for someone else’s safety in a fist fight, then that’s your decision to make.

And yet people still insist about arguing over that personal decision. I asked for advice, not for anyone to try to convince me that their personal decisions concerning the personal use of deadly force and the risks they are willing to accept are the right ones.

That said. Here are my opinions on the situation in which you were involved

See? All of that for something that's already been resolved in my book and needs no further discussion, let alone argument. So let me get into your actual advice.

First, you seem to think that being prepared to deploy your knife is different than being prepared to deploy a gun. I think that is a mistake. They are both considered “lethal force”, and even if you don’t kill someone with either, you will be treated as if you deployed “lethal force”. My advice would be to make sure you could articulate reasonable fear for your life before you reach for either.

Yeah, just see the first part of my post. Not well articulated here, but I'm not going to come with a speech for you guys, just a quick outline.

Second, you seem to take the stance that calling the police was not an option. I think that “paints you into a corner”, and while I can’t say if it’s possible or not, I strongly urge you to consider it in hindsight. If that means getting up and leaving your friends there fine, if it means not staying when you saw the bars on the counter window, even better. Remember, you were/are considering “lethal force” for… what? Honor? Nobility? Again, if that is a risk you chose to take, then so be it. Just make sure you understand the risk. Seriously, sit down and think it through by starting with, “How could I have called the cops?” Don’t let the answer be in the negative. You may have to make some sacrifices to come to a solution (you may have to leave people at risk), but find several solutions. You can then decide it they are worth it to you.

In my opinion, the sacrifice would have been to escalate the situation. Other people made it worse just by standing next to the guy. Get up, conspicuously leave without your friends, call someone, and come back? As far as that dude was concerned, he probably would have been suspicious. He was suspicious of the guy standing behind him just for standing behind him.

 

[CoRoMo]

Funny.
If someone wants to punch you, punch back. Don't gut the dude like a deer just because he swings on ya. If you see a weapon, draw a weapon and be prepared and trained to use it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

TwitchALot said: And then he took a swing at my head for no good reason.

Wait a minute. Now you're suggesting he threw a punch at you?

 

[dawg23]

This is an amazing thread:

1. Poster requests advice on how he could have better handled a confrontation.

2. Members provide advice.

3. OP doesn't like advice. Argues interminably.

4. Advice continues.

5. OP says members' comments no longer qualify as "advice," but rather are just people trying to convince him that he should have done things differently.

6. OP changes original story to add physical assault to the mix....after dozens of posts.


Conclusion: OP was looking for, and will likely continue in the future to look for, trouble. OP needs more help than he is likely to receive (or accept) here.

I need some popcorn.

 

[Jeff White]

And with that, this one is closed.

Jeff