Russian ammo in 7.62 X 39 and in .223 why prices are so low?

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There is nothing wrong with the Russian commercial brands (Wolf, Tula, Bear, etc). I've put a few thousand rounds of 9mm Silver Bear through a Kimber and Ruger P89 with no problem. Several years ago this stuff was even cheaper than reloads. It was a great deal and it's a shame that prices have risen. I've had no problems with the Silver Bear and not only is it reliable it's also good for storing. I had a minor flood several years ago and due to poor planning my ammo ended up underwater for several hours. Had it only been a few hundred rnds I probably would have thrown it away. As it was a few thousand rnds I dried it all out and wiped it down a few days later. I had two misfires out of this ammo. Bear in mind that it was a mix of Blazer, Silver Bear, reloads and shotgun shells of various calibers and manufacturers. All of it was good (except 2 rnds) despite being under water (all of the .22lr got tossed without testing).
I will say that the zinc plated Silver Bear ammo can get a odd looking discoloration and film on it after a few years of storage. It still feeds fine and goes bang.
I've got a couple of AR's and I usually shoot Tula, Brown Bear and Silver Bear in them. There have been no problems and they all feed fine. Accuracy is nothing to brag about (55gr Brown Bear seems best-Tula is worst) but these brands shoot as well as some domestic brands (Remington) in brass.
Someone said that the steel cases do not expand to fill the chamber and this causes more fouling. This is true. Some also say that the steel cases are harder on M4 extractors and firing pins. This might be true but the Russian ammo is made from softer steel (still harder than brass though) than the extractors. I haven't had a problem yet but I will say that my M4's are less than a year old and only have around a thousand or so rnds through each of them. Extractors and firing pins only cost a few dollars and I keep an extra in my range bag.
A few people have had problems with the laquer on Brown Bear ammo (and Wolf?). After a lot of shooting the laquer can supposedly cause the bolt to be basically glued into the foward position if it's allowed to cool with the BCG foward. I haven't seen this yet but it's evidently happened enough for AR shooters to know about it. I've read about this happening with Ruger Mini 14's too. Silver Bear is zinc plated and Tula is polymer coated if this is a worry.
One last thing, some people on the forums write about having the rim torn off of the case and having a hard time removing the empty case from the chamber. I haven't seen this either. I do have a broken shell extractor (CheaperThanDirt-$8) just in case.
I shoot at least once per month and have had no problems with Russian ammo. I told you about the internet stories and have no doubt that someone somewhere had problems with laquer and extraction of broken cases. I haven't seen it though and I don't personally know any other shooters that have had these problems. An extra firing pin, extractor and broken shell extractor stays in my range bag just in case and was paid for long ago out of the savings from shooting the cheaper steel cased ammo.
 
Patriotme said:
There is nothing wrong with the Russian commercial brands (Wolf, Tula, Bear, etc). I've put a few thousand rounds of 9mm Silver Bear through a Kimber and Ruger P89 with no problem. Several years ago this stuff was even cheaper than reloads. It was a great deal and it's a shame that prices have risen. I've had no problems with the Silver Bear and not only is it reliable it's also good for storing. I had a minor flood several years ago and due to poor planning my ammo ended up underwater for several hours. Had it only been a few hundred rnds I probably would have thrown it away. As it was a few thousand rnds I dried it all out and wiped it down a few days later. I had two misfires out of this ammo. Bear in mind that it was a mix of Blazer, Silver Bear, reloads and shotgun shells of various calibers and manufacturers. All of it was good (except 2 rnds) despite being under water (all of the .22lr got tossed without testing).
I will say that the zinc plated Silver Bear ammo can get a odd looking discoloration and film on it after a few years of storage. It still feeds fine and goes bang.
I've got a couple of AR's and I usually shoot Tula, Brown Bear and Silver Bear in them. There have been no problems and they all feed fine. Accuracy is nothing to brag about (55gr Brown Bear seems best-Tula is worst) but these brands shoot as well as some domestic brands (Remington) in brass.
Someone said that the steel cases do not expand to fill the chamber and this causes more fouling. This is true. Some also say that the steel cases are harder on M4 extractors and firing pins. This might be true but the Russian ammo is made from softer steel (still harder than brass though) than the extractors. I haven't had a problem yet but I will say that my M4's are less than a year old and only have around a thousand or so rnds through each of them. Extractors and firing pins only cost a few dollars and I keep an extra in my range bag.
A few people have had problems with the laquer on Brown Bear ammo (and Wolf?). After a lot of shooting the laquer can supposedly cause the bolt to be basically glued into the foward position if it's allowed to cool with the BCG foward. I haven't seen this yet but it's evidently happened enough for AR shooters to know about it. I've read about this happening with Ruger Mini 14's too. Silver Bear is zinc plated and Tula is polymer coated if this is a worry.
One last thing, some people on the forums write about having the rim torn off of the case and having a hard time removing the empty case from the chamber. I haven't seen this either. I do have a broken shell extractor (CheaperThanDirt-$8) just in case.
I shoot at least once per month and have had no problems with Russian ammo. I told you about the internet stories and have no doubt that someone somewhere had problems with laquer and extraction of broken cases. I haven't seen it though and I don't personally know any other shooters that have had these problems. An extra firing pin, extractor and broken shell extractor stays in my range bag just in case and was paid for long ago out of the savings from shooting the cheaper steel cased ammo.
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I guess I better keep any Russian ammo away from the Ruger Mini-14 and just use PMC, Remington, Winchester, or Federal in .223.
 
Why are the Russian brands of ammo cost so much less than the most common USA brands of ammo?

Nobody hit on the big reason Russian ammo is so cheap. The average Russian makes $60 a month if they're lucky. Production costs are about the biggest chunk of many manufactured goods.
 
GRIZ22 said:
Why are the Russian brands of ammo cost so much less than the most common USA brands of ammo?

Nobody hit on the big reason Russian ammo is so cheap. The average Russian makes $60 a month if they're lucky. Production costs are about the biggest chunk of many manufactured goods.
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This is true but do you think it is also reflective of the components and quality of the ammo made?
 
Nobody hit on the big reason Russian ammo is so cheap. The average Russian makes $60 a month if they're lucky. Production costs are about the biggest chunk of many manufactured goods.
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I agree. That is probably the number 1 cost savings. There are many reasons why milsurp and modern Russian ammo is cheaper. Steel is cheaper (by a large margin) than brass in both production costs but, also, in raw material cost. FMJ bullets are about 2/3 the cost of hollow points and 1/2 the cost of polymer-tipped bullets. The powder is not of the high quality (read dirty chambers) as western produced ammo.

One poster reminded me that it was indeed the Hague Convention of 1899 that created the rules of war and about the types of ammo that would be allowed. I knew that but got caught up in the popular belief that it was from the Geneva Convention.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagle-zebub
The jackets of a lot of the bullets, not the cores, are sometimes part steel. (An alloy of copper and steel.) These jackets are called "bimetal" on the packaging. Many indoor ranges won't let you fire these in their facilities.

Steel-core bullets can't be imported.

Is there away to tell if the bullet is steel core other than label? I was told they can start fires which is why ranges won't allow them.
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He said they can not be imported... Only way to tell is cut the bullet open. But thats only if you have old ammo.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM652-5.html this is lead and steal core. Its a mix.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM653-5.html this is steal core. I thought you could not buy this stuff?
 
stinger 327 said:
I guess I better keep any Russian ammo away from the Ruger Mini-14 and just use PMC, Remington, Winchester, or Federal in .223.
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Why? I have a friend who has a Mini-14 and shoots nothing but steel cased ammo - he's never had a problem yet. If you have a quick search on the 'net, you'll find that it seems the Mini-14 is not generally picky about ammo. If you have a rifle that shoots steel cased just fine, by not doing so you are missing out on some good savings, IMO.
 
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Patriotme said:
A few people have had problems with the laquer on Brown Bear ammo (and Wolf?). After a lot of shooting the laquer can supposedly cause the bolt to be basically glued into the foward position if it's allowed to cool with the BCG foward. I haven't seen this yet but it's evidently happened enough for AR shooters to know about it. I've read about this happening with Ruger Mini 14's too. Silver Bear is zinc plated and Tula is polymer coated if this is a worry
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This is a bit of an internet myth widely perpetuated. Fact is, steel case (any steel case, regardless of coating) does not expand as much as brass, therefore the chamber gets dirtier quicker, hence the chance it may gum up a bit sooner (although I've never had one that has). See this article: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

The main point to take away from it, to my mind, is not to shoot brass immediately after you've just had a range session with steel.
 
The old lacquer coated steel case stuff will get stuck in the chambers on some guns if you allow the round to cool in a hot chamber. I have personally witnessed this. My friend has an ar-15 and had some of the old lacquer coated brown bear and had one get stuck in the chamber and i'll tell you right now, that is a pain in the rear to get out.

I've never seen it happen on Russian guns though and I have had 1000 rounds of it through my SKS without a problem. Its mainly just a problem on the American made guns which have tighter tolerances. There is no need to worry about this anymore though because as far as I know, there are no manufacturers currently using lacquer anymore. There is still some of the lacquer coated stuff out there but its older stuff and will eventually be gone. I've ran over 1000 rounds of the new polymer coated steel cased ammo through my ar-15 and haven't had any problems with it at all.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Kwanger said:
This is a bit of an internet myth widely perpetuated. Fact is, steel case (any steel case, regardless of coating) does not expand as much as brass, therefore the chamber gets dirtier quicker, hence the chance it may gum up a bit sooner (although I've never had one that has). See this article: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

The main point to take away from it, to my mind, is not to shoot brass immediately after you've just had a range session with steel.
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I'm not sure if it's a myth or not. A decent amount of people seem to complain about it happening on www.ar15.com . This is a pretty common thread and while I agree about your point about the brass cases getting stuck there are others that complain about the bolt carrier group getting stuck in the foward position even when the chamber is empty. The common theme is that a lot of laquer covered ammo was shot and the gun was allowed to cool with the bolt carrier group foward. I haven't seen it and really don't worry about it. It's not like I'm taking this ammo to war.
I've shot brass cased ammo immediately after shooting the steel cased stuff and had no problems (just last week). It does make sense that a dirtier chamber will cause problems and steel cased ammo does give you a dirtier rifle. I suspect that as there are a lot of new AR owners out there they are probably not giving the chambers the cleaning that they need after shooting the Russian stuff. Most of those asking for help on AR15.com or www.M4Carbine.net seem to be new owners.
 
levsmith said:
The old lacquer coated steel case stuff will get stuck in the chambers on some guns if you allow the round to cool in a hot chamber. I have personally witnessed this. My friend has an ar-15 and had some of the old lacquer coated brown bear and had one get stuck in the chamber and i'll tell you right now, that is a pain in the rear to get out.

I've never seen it happen on Russian guns though and I have had 1000 rounds of it through my SKS without a problem. Its mainly just a problem on the American made guns which have tighter tolerances. There is no need to worry about this anymore though because as far as I know, there are no manufacturers currently using lacquer anymore. There is still some of the lacquer coated stuff out there but its older stuff and will eventually be gone. I've ran over 1000 rounds of the new polymer coated steel cased ammo through my ar-15 and haven't had any problems with it at all.

Just my 2 cents.
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Brown Bear seems to still using laquer coated cases. I like the accuracy of this stuff compared to the rest and usually pick up about 500 rnds or so every couple of months. They also advertise on www.cheaperthandirt.com that it's laquer covered although it could just be older ammo still in the marketplace. I hope that Brown Bear changes to a polymer covering like Wolf (Tula).
 
stinger 327 said:
I guess I better keep any Russian ammo away from the Ruger Mini-14 and just use PMC, Remington, Winchester, or Federal in .223.
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I wouldn't worry about it too much in the Mini 14. I did a lot of research before getting my M4's and I considered Mini 14's (and AK's, FAL's, etc) instead for various reasons. A few people on the Mini 14 boards complained about the bolt getting stuck foward but it was not a common event. Actually it's not exactly common with any of the weapons but it happens enough that it's a good idea to know how to fix the problem.
Think of it like a squib load. Most people will never have one in their entire life but it is a good idea to know about them.
 
Patriotme said:
I wouldn't worry about it too much in the Mini 14. I did a lot of research before getting my M4's and I considered Mini 14's (and AK's, FAL's, etc) instead for various reasons. A few people on the Mini 14 boards complained about the bolt getting stuck foward but it was not a common event. Actually it's not exactly common with any of the weapons but it happens enough that it's a good idea to know how to fix the problem.
Think of it like a squib load. Most people will never have one in their entire life but it is a good idea to know about them.
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I'm going to have to re-check my warranty because I know I saw a clause in there that if you use certain ammo it will void the warranty.
 
nalioth said:
All Soviet weapons were (and are) designed to use steel component ammunition. You won't hurt your AK by using steel cased ammo in it.
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I think an AK-47 made by Norinco will eat any kind of ammo and spit it out.
 
I'm going to have to re-check my warranty because I know I saw a clause in there that if you use certain ammo it will void the warranty.
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Don't get too awful hung up about what the warranty clause might say. Almost all gun manufacturers make some kind of cautionary or "warranty voiding" statement about ammo as a hedge against having to fix guns damaged by REALLY bad rounds.

One of the common statements is that the gun should only shoot new, factory ammo -- no reloads. Not many of us can afford to shoot if we're supposed to stick to that.

Steel cased ammo isn't going to hurt a thing.
 
I just bought 1,000 rds of Brown Bear 55gr HPs. Accuracy reports are good, haven't shot it out of my AR yet. I like the idea of a HP for SHTF/defensive use. I didn't sign the Hague Convention, so I want to use the most effective bullet possible, if it comes to that.

I took 5 rounds of Brown Bear (laq'd steel), 5 of Silver Bear I had (shiny silver colored zinc) and 5 brass FMJ rounds, and did a corrosion test. I left one of each buried in dirt under a rain spout, lying in dirt in the rain, and even in a cup of salt water for a week. Then I sprayed them with WD40 and wiped them dry. The silver bears look terrible but feel smooth. The brown bears are only a little discolored and also feel smooth. The brass is perfect of course. I have not tested them yet, but they all will feed and fire, I'm pretty sure. No corrosion is visible that changes the dimensions.

I did this to "worst case" the storage treatment of the Russian ammo. If Brown Bear can take this mistreatment, years in a dry box should not change them at all.
 
Sam1911 said:
This is one of those myths that just won't die!

The Hague Convention of 1899 (and again in 1907) were where the rules of war were hammered out to try to restrict undue suffering casued by expanding or "dum dum" bullets.

The U.S. did not sign the agreement but adheres to the restrictions regardless.

The Geneva Conventions came after WWII and cover the humane treatment of victims of war.
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I have also heard that FMJ is preferred in a war zone because it penetrates so much that you hit one soldier and then it continues on to hit another soldier.
 
Sam1911 said:
Don't get too awful hung up about what the warranty clause might say. Almost all gun manufacturers make some kind of cautionary or "warranty voiding" statement about ammo as a hedge against having to fix guns damaged by REALLY bad rounds.

One of the common statements is that the gun should only shoot new, factory ammo -- no reloads. Not many of us can afford to shoot if we're supposed to stick to that.

Steel cased ammo isn't going to hurt a thing.
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You save that much $$$$ by reloading?
Gun companies probably are afraid of the individual that is going to handload a bullet beyond the standard a real hot load that will damage their firearm so the company doesn't want to be held responsible for someone else's action of this sort.
 
I have also heard that FMJ is preferred in a war zone because it penetrates so much that you hit one soldier and then it continues on to hit another soldier.
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Yes, yes! And FMJs are only supposed to wound the enemy, thus tying up support resources to deal with the injured soldier, and the Nazi's had proof of the extra terrestrials we captured and imprisoned at Area 51, and the ammo shortage was a deliberate strategy of the current Administration to scare so many people into buying all the ammo up that "regular folks" couldn't find any!

;)

(Yeah...that last one was actually said here on THR ... seriously!)
 
You save that much $$$$ by reloading?
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Are you serious? Well better than half, depending on the round. I couldn't reload 5.45x39 cheaper than Soviet surplus stuff ($0.12 a round) but I can load something like .44 Spc. for probably close to 1/3 the cost of a box of factory ammo.

Gun companies probably are afraid of the individual that is going to handload a bullet beyond the standard a real hot load that will damage their firearm so the company doesn't want to be held responsible for someone else's action of this sort.
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Of course. Actually, gun companies (all companies, really) don't want to pay any claim they don't HAVE to -- because any claim costs them money. Most don't give you a hard time if you've shot reloads, unless you're trying to get them to replace a bulged barrel or a whole gun that blew up "for no reason."
 
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