1911 guide rod

I guess it comes down to two questions:

"What's so good about a FLGR?"

*shrug* "Nothin."

"Well...What's so bad about a FLGR?"

*shrug* "Nothin."

If you get a full length guide rod, be sure to get a one piece. They allow disassembly without any specialized tools. A two piece guide rod is usually too long to be able to field strip the pistol without the use of a tool, if it's tight. If it's loose, it will unscrew during fire and eventually fall out of the front.

I've been messing with 1911's for about 25 years. A Combat Commander was my first handgun. The first of over 100 that I've owned at one time or another. The only benefit I've seen from the full length guide rod is that it stops the spring from kinking when the slide comes back, but I'm not sure that the spring kinking or twisting is detrimental to anything.

If you consider the Browning Hi Power, it has a similar (short) guide rod, with no provision for adding a longer one and those pistols run well.

Butter said:

I agree with most here. No difference. I generally replace a longer guide rod if it came with the gun. As for taking down a 1911, anyone ever try taking down a Les Baer for the first time without a bushing wrench? Damn near tore the bushing wrench apart the first time I tried. After about 500 rounds and doing it a couple of times it becomes easier, but sheesh!

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I installed that match grade bushing on my father's old Combat Commander, and I had to tap it in with a hammer and a wood block. Once it was in, I was able to turn it fairly easily with the bushing wrench (I oiled it before installing it). And I know I can get it apart again if need be.

1911Tuner said:

What the group gripper does is lift the barrel higher into the slide on a barrel with an undersized lower lug and cause it to return closer to the same place between shots when the slide goes to battery. Accuracy enhancement varies from a little better to a lot better...or it can make very little practical difference...or none. It's an expedient "fix" for a loosely fitted or out of spec lower barrel lug. Sometimes the slide and frame vertical dimensions result in a loose fit, even with a good barrel.

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That's pretty much the case here. The 1970s were a very bad time in American manufacture, and firearms were no exception. The firearms industry was transitioning into the first generation of automated equipment, and these early machines had horrible tolerances. My father's Combat Commander had a loose barrel. It shot horrible. A few retrofit parts made it shoot like a new gun. Better to spend $75 than $400.

The only benefit I've seen from the full length guide rod is that it stops the spring from kinking when the slide comes back,

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Unless there's a misalignment between the slide and frame, it won't kink with a short guide rod, either.

The spring's ID is a close fit with the rod. Its OD is a close fit inside the spring plug. The spring compresses equally at all points along its length. As it compresses, the plug covers it on the outside while it stacks over the rod. By the time the slide is at full travel, it's pretty nearly encapsulated and controlled inside and out. There's just not much opportunity for it to flex in either direction.

Wolf...Many consider the 70s as Colt's Dark Age, with a lot of pistols that weren't worth bringing home. One would be excellent, and the next one in line complete junk...but I've seen a good many that were made before and after that gave poor vertical engagement...or "lockup" if you prefer. Pushing down on the barrel would produce vertical movement...but about the only thing that it hurt was consistent placement when it returned to battery that usually showed up as vertical stringing. Only rarely was it bad enough to be of any real concern except for those who put great store in cutting cloverleaf groups at unrealistic distances in deliberate slow fire. As a close-quarters fighting tool, they were fine.

I studied the first group gripper that I saw carefully, and disregarded it. I saw several in use that cleaned up the vertical stringing...and the guns started horizontal stringing due to the barrel being supported only in the center...like long-linking a barrel to tighten the "lockup." Each gun gave different results, depending on how much barrel rotation the the lower lug and frame recess clearance allowed.

While I don't like for a pistol barrel to drop when pushed, unless it's really bad, I don't consider it detrimental to a service or duty pistol. .005 inch or so isn't of any real consequence.

Don't feel bad, I'm calling everyone to task who makes this silly statement.

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The only benefit I've seen from the full length guide rod is that it stops the spring from kinking when the slide comes back,

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in 75 years of use by the military, and far longer use by the private sector, i've never once heard of a 1911 recoil spring kinking. it's nothing more than a non existent problem contrived by the FLGR makers in order to advertise their products.

Mine came with an FLGR, but I wouldn't spend money changing one in or out.

I'm reminded of Ed Brown saying that the only reason they installed a FLGR in his 1911s was because it was expected by his customers

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les baer has always said FLGR's in 1911's are completely useless as well.

I don't understand the persistant need for GI rod fans to persistantly demonize the flgr. The worst argument against the flgr is JMB didn't design it. He didn't design in the aluminum trigger, beavertail grip safety, the extended thumb safety nor the high hold cut on the front strap. But these are ackowledged as positive improvements. So put some weight in the front of the pistol and give the recoil spring a positive track on it's ID and things run smoother in some guns.

Can't disassm nor assm a 1911 with an flgr? That is a personnel issue not a flgr issue.
Too many tools for maintenance with flgr installed? Get a one piece as mentioned earlier.
Don't like the flgr? Sounds like personal preference, but nothing wrong with using one.

For the record, I use and like both GI and flgr and will select according to my vision and use of the pistol.

I thought the original part is designed to fit the barrel for your specific gun. Is Wilson the universal bushing that fits everything??

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you might have to fit it, might not. each 1911 is different. personally though, i would choose the EGW flanged bushing over wilson's. tightens up the gun/groups better, and is usually drop in.

not sure who you can go to in houston, but there's plenty of videos on youtube to look at if you're unfamiliar with 1911's.

The Group Gripper and the bushing tightened it up nicely. 1911Tuner, my father's Colt Combat Commander dates to approximately 1972. It's one of the early production ones. As a result, it suffered from the problems you described. The bushing in question did require a bit of effort to install, but I wasn't hitting it hard enough to damage things or that it would be impossible to remove. It was pretty much just tapped in. Then it turns fine with a bushing wrench. Overall the gun is good. It just needed those two things fixed.

I used a group gripper in two guns and the accuracy definitely improved. But I also coupled this with a fitted NM bushing.

Wolf...I recently bought and sold a 1973 production Combat Commander in which the slide lugs were off-center badly enough to see it. The gun was perfectly functional, and very reliable...what little I shot it...which was about 70 rounds. I'd seen it before in a Series 70 Gold Cup and a Government Model. Just an example of Colt's Dark Days.

If you still have access to that Commander, you can lap the bushing with J&B Bore Cleaner for a better fit and easier removal.

mljdeckard said:

Because it does. I have pock marks in my ceiling where I have lost my grip on the plug and shot it up. Guess how many times I have done this with the G.I. style plug? ZERO.

The main reason I switched back, is because I often go out with my dad to the desert to piddle around, and I switch my carry gun to .22. I have come very close more than once to searching the sagebrush for it.

And if you say; "just use the wrench", this means A: Another item you have to keep handy, and B: If you have to use a tool to do something you could otherwise do with bare hands, that means it is indeed MORE DIFFICULT.

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Why is it I can manage to not shoot a plug across the room with my FLGR?

And no, you don't need a tool. People who can't handle FLGR all act like there is 120x time spring tension on a FLGR when it's about the same as a stock setup.

^ I'm with this. The only guns of mine I need to use a bushing wrench on are ones with tight bushings. Nothing to do with the FLGR. If the FLGR comes long, and interferes with hand turning the bushing, I shorten it a touch. The only difference I feel between pushing down the plug on a FLGR setup and a GI setup is the GI doesn't leave an impression on my thumb. I normally have a wrench handy anyway, so it doesn't matter.

I find dis/ass easier with the FLGR because I use the method with the spring and plug out first, in last.

When you remove the spring, plug and rod from the gun and lay them end to end, it seems as if the spring is completely unsupported in the middle and would kink and twist all over like a Slinky toy. However, when the parts are assembled in the gun and the spring compressed, there is very little gap, perhaps the width of two coils.

If an otherwise desirable pistol already has a FLGR in it, it shoots well and does not interfere with its other functions, I might leave it in. But would I go out and buy one to put in a gun that did not already have it, just because? No.

To me, it's not a big difference, I just don't want to keep guns in a configuration other than what I prefer, and wish they were different.

I have replaced every full length guide road with the standard GI configuration of recoil plug and guide rod.

I found the full length guide rod was just another thing to go wrong.

I used to seat my bullets out so that the base of the cartridge was level with the barrel hood. That worked in a Colt chamber but those same cartridges now were too long for a Kimber chamber. What happened in my new Kimber Custom classic was that my reloads now jammed in the throat and prevented the slide from going fully into battery. I could not beat the slide closed and shoot the thing out and the cartridge was so jammed in the throat that I could not pull the slide back.

Before stupid full length guide rods, all I had to do was put the muzzle over the edge of a table, recoil plug resting on the table, and push. A full length guide rod prevented that mode of cartridge clearance.

I decided, you know, while this failure mode is due to my crappy reloads, it could still happen with decent ammunition and I would not be able to clear the pistol if it had a full length guide rod.

So I dumped it. And in each M1911 that had one, I got rid of those full length guide rods.

Life is better, the M1911 is easier to take apart, function is a perfect as it ever was, and I elimanted a failure mode.

I use full length GR's on my 1911's, but only one piece, no 2 piece things for me.

One thing I do to mine is drill a counter sunk hole through the GR just in front of the bushing when the slide is locked back. I took a piece of drill bit stock and made a small pin. When I take the gun apart for cleaning I lock the slide back, slip in the pin, and now I have the spring captive under pressure. I release the slide lock and remove the slide stop, push the slide forward, and now I have the gun apart with no need for a bushing wrench and no danger of flying springs and pieces.

Been doing it that way since the mid 80's when an IPSC gunsmith friend of mine showed me the trick.

I'll try to take a photo in a bit to show how it works.

Here is an absolutely stock, as issued Colt M1911A1. I took out three VC with this pistola, all one shot stops.. I does not have or need a FLGR....

This thread reminds me of the Mexican bandito in the "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" when asked if he had a badge,

Badges, we don't need no stinking badges!!!

1911Tuner said:

I guess it comes down to two questions:

"What's so good about a FLGR?"

*shrug* "Nothin."

"Well...What's so bad about a FLGR?"

*shrug* "Nothin."

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BINGO!

A 1911 doesn't benefit from a FLGR. Doesn't hurt it either. Doesn't make it shoot better or worse, doesn't make it easier or harder to disassemble.

I call everyone to task who says they do because 99% of them simply repeat what they've heard or simply can't handle anything that varies from the original design.

Not all guns come with or need night sights, but some people prefer them.

I've never heard anyone say their 1911 NEEDED a FLGR.

I found the full length guide rod was just another thing to go wrong.

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What is there to go wrong with a solid piece of metal? It doesn't do anything. It sounds to me like everything going wrong with your gun happened at your reloading press.

How about..."They look kinda' cool"?

....Or maybe if they are hollowed out and held a single .22LR round that could be activated by a seperate "trigger" for that emergency/ surprise shot when the mag was empty?

Now we are getting into Bond territory...hehehe!

Full length guide rods? I tried a couple of them back in the 90's............I consider them a complete waste of money.

None for me thanks.