That is hardly a "fact".
Actually it's a pretty broad generalization and depending upon the state (and in some instances, the municipality) in which you reside, not necessarily the truth.
I'd really hate to see someone lose their freedom following such "advice".
I tested my FiveSeven on marmots, rabbits and feral dogs. I had several failures on the last despite multiple torso hits. I would not use this as a self defense round. Yes, the Europeans think well of the 5.7x28. They also thought 32 acp was a good police round.
The 5.7x28 out of the FiveseveN is equivalent to 22 magnum from a rifle. Yes, they can both kill, but would choose either for SD?
Keep in mind that a big argument for the PDW was that the military arms market post cold war was basically saturated. The PDW was put forward to boost weapon sales in a down market. But the PDW didn't really take off, so the next market is the US gun buyer (who are much more susceptible to marketing campaigns).
I ended up selling my FiveseveN. It was a neat gun, but not compelling enough to keep. The newer generation are much nicer looking and I might buy another one someday just for fun.
Now if someone were to come out with an inexpensive 5.7 varmint rifle, I might take a second look. Then again, I am a fan of the 22 Hornet.
Strangest of all, I have run into a number of fans of 5.7 who think the 5.56x45 is an inadequate manstopper. ***? The 5.7 is credited with a pretty substantial number of real world one shot kills, with statements like 'the coroner had never seen anything like it'. Many of the sources are suspect or uncited. the 5.7x28 is pretty anemic compared to 5.56x45, and yet supposedly anyone ever shot with it was instantly killed. Let just say that based on my own experience shooting animals with the 5.7 I am dubious.
"There was one case with a mass shooter that was shoot 4 times with a .45 and was able to get back up, kill the civilian that shot him and continue because he had body."
Right. So, just in case, in that one-in-a-billion-chance you run into that kind of guy, have at it.
A quick comparison...
FN Five-seven:
Height = 5.7"
Width = 1.4"
Length = 8.2"
Weight = 20.80 oz. empty
Glock 17:
Height = 5.43"
Width = 1.18"
Length = 7.32"
weight = 22.04 oz. empty
So, the FN is longer, wider, and taller than the G17, and nearly the same weight (only about 2 oz. difference).
And I can get 33-round magazines for the Glock.
I can't really see much point to the Five-seven.
Just an odd duck cartridge in an odd duck pistol.
Actually I have never tried to shoot someone in the head, also I'm a really crappy shot with a handgun anyway.
I love posters who show up only for a single subject. But, I do have a few thoughts - I know I know, I should not speak as I am an unwashed who does not actually own one, only that I do have a brother-in-law with the first civilian pattern version.
There is no evidence NATO would be using the 5.7 except for the Germans. The US has certainly not made any inroads to issue the design or the round for its armed forces, you know, part of NATO - the bulk of NATO.
Defeating body armor is not important to civilians. How many shootings with the 5.7 (I note that these are virtually all murders with very few self-defensive situations) involved armored attackers? The need to shoot through a car door can be compelling, I suppose.
Nobody plinks with expensive self-defense ammo. Therefore, for plinking, it is expensive.
The grip may not be much wider than comparable pistols, but it is much, much deeper. The grip on the CZ-97 I once owned was not really any wider than my Tanfoglio, but it was deeper. The result, the pistol was too big for me.
Pardon me, though, as I think it is time to return to my cave and my primitive steel arms from a bygone era.
Glock, the 22lr was once the poacher's weapon of choice for killing deer. They are not that hearty.
"There was one case with a mass shooter that was shoot 4 times with a .45 and was able to get back up, kill the civilian that shot him and continue because he had body."
Right. So, just in case, in that one-in-a-billion-chance you run into that kind of guy, have at it.
7.62 Nagant killed many, too, with head shots at that. The Czar of Russia died in part from that round. Must be the best in the world given its record.
Any comparisons I make are between Elite 5.7x28mm and .40 and .45 caliber elite self-defense rounds.How come people keep saying that 5.7x28mm ammo is the same price or cheaper than .45 acp when the cheapest .45 acp ammunition is $.25 a round and the cheapest 5.7x28mm at $.37 a round.
This remains to be seen.The secret behind the FiveseveN is simple: Light weight + high-speed + bullet behavior = formidable battle pistol.
Couldn't you just do the failure to stop drill and pop them in the head instead of getting a special gun?
This remains to be seen.
The Five-seven does not have any proven record of being an effective "battle pistol".
So, if the good guy had not sought out the attacker he would have lived. The result, then, was due to a failure in tactics. If he had remained in a defensive state, the baddie with body armor could not have murdered him.
The Five seveN is no wonder weapon, regardless of our new member's evident zeal. It is what it is, and I'll wager my shot placement with a 45acp or 9mm will prove absolutely effective. If shot placement is critical, then I have no problem achieving that goal with my own weapon of choice - which it excels at by the way.
I don't mean to be confrontational, but I found the above statement a little hard to believe. Nobody that has owned and shot a FiveseveN would say a .22LR pistol could replace it, nobody...
I just noticed this on the elite ammunition s4m page, "Control Shot: .17cal BB 4.2” penetration Point Blank Level II Vest shot: 8.0” penetration with 3.3” cavity at widest section." and thought it was rather interesting as brassfetcher did a test and the 7.62x25mm tokarev penetrated about 12 inches after going through an NIJ level II ballistics vest.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm
My informal testing has shown it to be about a hair weaker than 9mm out of a Glock 34, but out of a 16" PS90 barrel it's quite a bit more powerful.
Keep in mind the round is supposed to have marginal performance to limit danger to innocents or team mates during CQB operations.
That's your opinion.
My opinion is that the FiveSeven is good for putting holes in paper and that's all I did with mine. It was too big for concealed carry and to be honest I wouldn't trust the caliber for self defense. Basically it served the same purpose in MY collection as a .22, and if you find that hard to believe then I really don't care.
I do have other 5.7 rounds that are currently unavailable that will penetrate Level IV like butter and travel 8-10 in after piercing the armor. It actually penetrated the front and back of Level IV armor which was surrounding a "body" of ballistics gelatin.
I don't know if you are talking about a specific round or the FiveseveN in general. But I assure you, it wasn't designed to have marginal performance, it was designed to replace the 9mm in the military. It has many advantages over the 9mm such as weight, flatter-shooting, hydrostatic shock, armor penetrating, higher round capacity, etc.
Brassfetcher has stated that the S4M or 195 is a suitable replacement for the 230gr .45 caliber.
NATO would have replaced the 9x19mm with the 5.7x28mm by now, if not for Germany/HK and the 4.6x30mm stalling the process. That is established fact.There is no evidence NATO would be using the 5.7 except for the Germans.
Speak for yourself. I could list dozens of recent cases where criminals used body armor in shootings, armed robberies, etc.Defeating body armor is not important to civilians.
It is no more expensive than .45 ACP.Therefore, for plinking, it is expensive.
Actually, at 1.2 inches, the Five-seveN grip is not any wider than comparable pistols. It also has a shorter trigger reach than Glock pistols.The grip may not be much wider than comparable pistols, but it is much, much deeper.
This is incorrect. It was the other way around. Mark Wilson was behind a vehicle shooting at the killer wearing body armor. He hit the killer several times with his .45 ACP carry pistol, and it had no effect. The killer advanced on Wilson and one of his bullets dropped him; he then came around the side of the vehicle and executed Wilson there.After the guy was shot those 4 times he fell down behind his vehicle, the armed citizen was going around the truck to see if he was stopped when he then got back up and shot the hero making him fall down and then closed the distance and executed him.
A number of EA's 5.7x28mm loads will do the same thing; the difference is, the Five-seveN platform is far superior to any pistol chambered in 7.62x25mm.brassfetcher did a test and the 7.62x25mm tokarev penetrated about 12 inches after going through an NIJ level II ballistics vest.
Wrong.Keep in mind the round is supposed to have marginal performance to limit danger to innocents or team mates during CQB operations.