So what's the general consensus on the FN Five-seveN?

[Kush]

How come people keep saying that 5.7x28mm ammo is the same price or cheaper than .45 acp when the cheapest .45 acp ammunition is $.25 a round and the cheapest 5.7x28mm at $.37 a round.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

That is hardly a "fact".

Actually it's a pretty broad generalization and depending upon the state (and in some instances, the municipality) in which you reside, not necessarily the truth.

I'd really hate to see someone lose their freedom following such "advice".

It is a fact and it isn't considered "armor piercing" under the current rules and regulations.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I tested my FiveSeven on marmots, rabbits and feral dogs. I had several failures on the last despite multiple torso hits. I would not use this as a self defense round. Yes, the Europeans think well of the 5.7x28. They also thought 32 acp was a good police round.

The 5.7x28 out of the FiveseveN is equivalent to 22 magnum from a rifle. Yes, they can both kill, but would choose either for SD?

Keep in mind that a big argument for the PDW was that the military arms market post cold war was basically saturated. The PDW was put forward to boost weapon sales in a down market. But the PDW didn't really take off, so the next market is the US gun buyer (who are much more susceptible to marketing campaigns).

I ended up selling my FiveseveN. It was a neat gun, but not compelling enough to keep. The newer generation are much nicer looking and I might buy another one someday just for fun.

Now if someone were to come out with an inexpensive 5.7 varmint rifle, I might take a second look. Then again, I am a fan of the 22 Hornet.

Strangest of all, I have run into a number of fans of 5.7 who think the 5.56x45 is an inadequate manstopper. ***? The 5.7 is credited with a pretty substantial number of real world one shot kills, with statements like 'the coroner had never seen anything like it'. Many of the sources are suspect or uncited. the 5.7x28 is pretty anemic compared to 5.56x45, and yet supposedly anyone ever shot with it was instantly killed. Let just say that based on my own experience shooting animals with the 5.7 I am dubious.

Your post is a little bit dubious. What round where you using to kill the varmints if you don't mind my asking?

If SS197 can drop a 200lb deer with a lung shot, I'm thinkin' it won't have a problem with a dog... lol

Perhaps if your aim was off and you gave the animal a bunch of flesh wounds from glancing shots your experience might seem more believable. But if I replaced the pistol you used that night with a 1911 .45, would you still say the weapon was ineffective for self-defense? An unbiased independent test just stated that SS195 is equal or better than 230gr .45...

 

[Kush]

"There was one case with a mass shooter that was shoot 4 times with a .45 and was able to get back up, kill the civilian that shot him and continue because he had body."

Right. So, just in case, in that one-in-a-billion-chance you run into that kind of guy, have at it.

Couldn't you just do the failure to stop drill and pop them in the head instead of getting a special gun?

 

[Zerodefect]

Have you ever tried shooting someone in the head that wasn't sitting still?

 

[Kush]

Actually I have never tried to shoot someone in the head, also I'm a really crappy shot with a handgun anyway.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

A quick comparison...

FN Five-seven:

Height = 5.7"
Width = 1.4"
Length = 8.2"
Weight = 20.80 oz. empty



Glock 17:

Height = 5.43"
Width = 1.18"
Length = 7.32"
weight = 22.04 oz. empty

So, the FN is longer, wider, and taller than the G17, and nearly the same weight (only about 2 oz. difference).
And I can get 33-round magazines for the Glock.

I can't really see much point to the Five-seven.
Just an odd duck cartridge in an odd duck pistol.

9mm ammo weighs roughly twice that of 5.7 ammo. Your Glock with 30 rounds will be in the neighborhood of 35 oz. while the FsN will weigh around 25 oz. That's means the FsN is roughly 40% lighter than your G17 with each pistol holding 30 rounds...

The secret behind the FiveseveN is simple: Light weight + high-speed + bullet behavior = formidable battle pistol.

 

[Zerodefect]

Actually I have never tried to shoot someone in the head, also I'm a really crappy shot with a handgun anyway.

Exactly. Hitting someone in the head is very very hard except at a static range. Especially if your back drop is rough or unknown.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I love posters who show up only for a single subject. But, I do have a few thoughts - I know I know, I should not speak as I am an unwashed who does not actually own one, only that I do have a brother-in-law with the first civilian pattern version.

There is no evidence NATO would be using the 5.7 except for the Germans. The US has certainly not made any inroads to issue the design or the round for its armed forces, you know, part of NATO - the bulk of NATO.

Defeating body armor is not important to civilians. How many shootings with the 5.7 (I note that these are virtually all murders with very few self-defensive situations) involved armored attackers? The need to shoot through a car door can be compelling, I suppose.

Nobody plinks with expensive self-defense ammo. Therefore, for plinking, it is expensive.

The grip may not be much wider than comparable pistols, but it is much, much deeper. The grip on the CZ-97 I once owned was not really any wider than my Tanfoglio, but it was deeper. The result, the pistol was too big for me.

Pardon me, though, as I think it is time to return to my cave and my primitive steel arms from a bygone era.

Defeating body armor and barriers easily is important for combat - the reason the platform was created. It just so happens that law enforcement find these characteristics appealing as well. And I don't know too many gun-loving civilians that are going to complain because their gun can penetrate armor. There are several stories readily available detailing criminals and their increasing use of body armor.

Plinking with the FsN can cost as little as 16.00 per 50 round box of SS197. Just watch the gun shows and/or buy in bulk. Last time I checked, 17.00 was as cheap of ammo as I could get at Walmart for a .40 unless I went Tula which was about a buck lower.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Glock, the 22lr was once the poacher's weapon of choice for killing deer. They are not that hearty.

"There was one case with a mass shooter that was shoot 4 times with a .45 and was able to get back up, kill the civilian that shot him and continue because he had body."

Right. So, just in case, in that one-in-a-billion-chance you run into that kind of guy, have at it.

7.62 Nagant killed many, too, with head shots at that. The Czar of Russia died in part from that round. Must be the best in the world given its record.

You are going to drop a 200+ lb deer with a 22lr? It better be in the head...

There are plenty of people that have continued to fight after being shot with a .45 multiple times without body armor. It's all about shot placement of which the FsN excels at.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

How come people keep saying that 5.7x28mm ammo is the same price or cheaper than .45 acp when the cheapest .45 acp ammunition is $.25 a round and the cheapest 5.7x28mm at $.37 a round.

Any comparisons I make are between Elite 5.7x28mm and .40 and .45 caliber elite self-defense rounds.

I've bought 50 rounds of S4M (arguably the best self-defense round made for the FiveseveN) for around 45.00.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

HOLY S. !!!!!

I actually caught up with the end of the thread responding to every incorrect comment as well as a few extras that I found interesting. Now I can die in peace... lol

 

[easyg]

The secret behind the FiveseveN is simple: Light weight + high-speed + bullet behavior = formidable battle pistol.

This remains to be seen.
The Five-seven does not have any proven record of being an effective "battle pistol".

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Couldn't you just do the failure to stop drill and pop them in the head instead of getting a special gun?

After the guy was shot those 4 times he fell down behind his vehicle, the armed citizen was going around the truck to see if he was stopped when he then got back up and shot the hero making him fall down and then closed the distance and executed him.

This remains to be seen.
The Five-seven does not have any proven record of being an effective "battle pistol".

The statistics involving this round show its on par with other handgun calibers in terms of how effective they are.

 

[Ash]

So, if the good guy had not sought out the attacker he would have lived. The result, then, was due to a failure in tactics. If he had remained in a defensive state, the baddie with body armor could not have murdered him.

The Five seveN is no wonder weapon, regardless of our new member's evident zeal. It is what it is, and I'll wager my shot placement with a 45acp or 9mm will prove absolutely effective. If shot placement is critical, then I have no problem achieving that goal with my own weapon of choice - which it excels at by the way.

And, by the way, the 22lr is indeed the poacher's weapon. That's not merely opinion.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So, if the good guy had not sought out the attacker he would have lived. The result, then, was due to a failure in tactics. If he had remained in a defensive state, the baddie with body armor could not have murdered him.

It was open ground and he had a rifle, it was out of his control. He died trying to stop a psychotic killer and failed because the guy was wearing body armor. He died a hero. If he chose not to do anything he would have lived but the guy wouldn't have started to run away, saving lives.

The Five seveN is no wonder weapon, regardless of our new member's evident zeal. It is what it is, and I'll wager my shot placement with a 45acp or 9mm will prove absolutely effective. If shot placement is critical, then I have no problem achieving that goal with my own weapon of choice - which it excels at by the way.

We aren't saying its a wonder weapon, we are saying its just as effective as the other calibers.

 

[Kush]

I just noticed this on the elite ammunition s4m page, "Control Shot: .17cal BB 4.2” penetration Point Blank Level II Vest shot: 8.0” penetration with 3.3” cavity at widest section." and thought it was rather interesting as brassfetcher did a test and the 7.62x25mm tokarev penetrated about 12 inches after going through an NIJ level II ballistics vest.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

 

[Zerodefect]

My informal testing has shown it to be about a hair weaker than 9mm out of a Glock 34, but out of a 16" PS90 barrel it's quite a bit more powerful.

Keep in mind the round is supposed to have marginal performance to limit danger to innocents or team mates during CQB operations.

 

[nwilliams]

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I found the above statement a little hard to believe. Nobody that has owned and shot a FiveseveN would say a .22LR pistol could replace it, nobody...

That's your opinion.

My opinion is that the FiveSeven is good for putting holes in paper and that's all I did with mine. It was too big for concealed carry and to be honest I wouldn't trust the caliber for self defense. Basically it served the same purpose in MY collection as a .22, and if you find that hard to believe then I really don't care.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I just noticed this on the elite ammunition s4m page, "Control Shot: .17cal BB 4.2” penetration Point Blank Level II Vest shot: 8.0” penetration with 3.3” cavity at widest section." and thought it was rather interesting as brassfetcher did a test and the 7.62x25mm tokarev penetrated about 12 inches after going through an NIJ level II ballistics vest.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

The Tokarev round is a great penetrator but that is where it's usefulness ends. Without the bullet behavior of the tumbling 5.7, it is merely going to poke holes in the target like an ice pick.

I do have other 5.7 rounds that are currently unavailable that will penetrate Level IV like butter and travel 8-10 in after piercing the armor. It actually penetrated the front and back of Level IV armor which was surrounding a "body" of ballistics gelatin.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

My informal testing has shown it to be about a hair weaker than 9mm out of a Glock 34, but out of a 16" PS90 barrel it's quite a bit more powerful.

Keep in mind the round is supposed to have marginal performance to limit danger to innocents or team mates during CQB operations.

I don't know if you are talking about a specific round or the FiveseveN in general. But I assure you, it wasn't designed to have marginal performance, it was designed to replace the 9mm in the military. It has many advantages over the 9mm such as weight, flatter-shooting, hydrostatic shock, armor penetrating, higher round capacity, etc.

Brassfetcher has stated that the S4M or 195 is a suitable replacement for the 230gr .45 caliber.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

That's your opinion.

My opinion is that the FiveSeven is good for putting holes in paper and that's all I did with mine. It was too big for concealed carry and to be honest I wouldn't trust the caliber for self defense. Basically it served the same purpose in MY collection as a .22, and if you find that hard to believe then I really don't care.

Fair enough. You must be a very rare bird indeed...

I carry my FiveseveN in a Crossbreed Supertuck and I can't even feel it. It feels like I am carrying a wallet pressed to my hip. That is the advantage of it being an incredibly light gun.

Perhaps you sold your FiveseveN a bit prematurely. Your statements about not trusting the caliber for self defense makes me wonder if you weren't influenced by all the 5.7 haters out there. Lots of factual data has been released over the last year proving what many FiveseveN owners have known for a long time.. the 5.7 pistol is a formidable self-defensive choice.

But I'm not going to tell ANYBODY what caliber/gun they should carry. There are lots of good choices for a variety of reasons. All I have done in this thread is refute misinformation and provide data supporting why the FiveseveN is a great self-defensive choice.

 

[Kush]

I do have other 5.7 rounds that are currently unavailable that will penetrate Level IV like butter and travel 8-10 in after piercing the armor. It actually penetrated the front and back of Level IV armor which was surrounding a "body" of ballistics gelatin.

I would like proof of this statement because it sounds like a load of BS, Level IV body armor is made to stop armor piercing .30-06, i highly doubt that any handgun can penetrate that and definitely not both the front and back.

 

[Zerodefect]

I don't know if you are talking about a specific round or the FiveseveN in general. But I assure you, it wasn't designed to have marginal performance, it was designed to replace the 9mm in the military. It has many advantages over the 9mm such as weight, flatter-shooting, hydrostatic shock, armor penetrating, higher round capacity, etc.

Brassfetcher has stated that the S4M or 195 is a suitable replacement for the 230gr .45 caliber.

The P90/PS90 do indeed outperform 9mm MP5 platform subguns when you hit your adversary that is wearing CRISAT armor or no armor at 200y or less range.

But it is mediocre at defeating soft barriers such as a sofa or two, a couple mobile homes, or baddies with 18" Jello shields (Yes the kind Bill Cosby endorses). It's speed deos allow SS195 to go through auto glass OK.

I wasn't bashing the round at all. It is effective at it's job. But it's designed to have the bare minimum power it can to meet the spec NATO required. It will not go through a cinder block for example because the bullet is toast after it hits the first wall of said block. A .45 carbine will go through.

The reason that the 5.7x28mm round deos so poorly in gell tests is that it is supposed to. It loses energy very, very quick. This makes it a very good indoor CQB weapon when you have dozens of innocents running around. 5.7 is very unlikely to kill anyone after bleeding off all it's energy in your target, if it even passes completely through your target at all (unlikely).

I'm not convinced that barrels shorter than 10" suit the 5.7x28mm round well at all.


As for the ammo conversation. Hopefully a real ammo manufacturer will soon offer more options than FN, and actually have the capability to keep up with demand so they don't have to charge insane prices.

 

[DmL5]

There is no evidence NATO would be using the 5.7 except for the Germans.

NATO would have replaced the 9x19mm with the 5.7x28mm by now, if not for Germany/HK and the 4.6x30mm stalling the process. That is established fact.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061016...-defence.com/2006/Utilities/article.php?id=40

Defeating body armor is not important to civilians.

Speak for yourself. I could list dozens of recent cases where criminals used body armor in shootings, armed robberies, etc.

Therefore, for plinking, it is expensive.

It is no more expensive than .45 ACP.

The grip may not be much wider than comparable pistols, but it is much, much deeper.

Actually, at 1.2 inches, the Five-seveN grip is not any wider than comparable pistols. It also has a shorter trigger reach than Glock pistols.

After the guy was shot those 4 times he fell down behind his vehicle, the armed citizen was going around the truck to see if he was stopped when he then got back up and shot the hero making him fall down and then closed the distance and executed him.

This is incorrect. It was the other way around. Mark Wilson was behind a vehicle shooting at the killer wearing body armor. He hit the killer several times with his .45 ACP carry pistol, and it had no effect. The killer advanced on Wilson and one of his bullets dropped him; he then came around the side of the vehicle and executed Wilson there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

brassfetcher did a test and the 7.62x25mm tokarev penetrated about 12 inches after going through an NIJ level II ballistics vest.

A number of EA's 5.7x28mm loads will do the same thing; the difference is, the Five-seveN platform is far superior to any pistol chambered in 7.62x25mm.

Keep in mind the round is supposed to have marginal performance to limit danger to innocents or team mates during CQB operations.

Wrong.

The SS190 was designed to have limited penetration in soft targets, so as to not overpenetrate a soft target, but it was not by any stretch of the imagination designed to have "marginal performance." If you watch FN's original P90 promotional video, the SS190 was always touted by FN as being capable of greater "stopping power" than the 9mm, which it was designed to replace. Anyway, that was the SS190, and we are discussing newer, better 5.7x28mm loads now.