So what's the general consensus on the FN Five-seveN?

[Taroman]

Terrorists choice.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

What terrorists? Only one I know of is Major Hassan.

 

[DmL5]

No, we don't.

Yes, we do, as I explained in my last post. Everyone that was killed in the Fort Hood shooting immediately stopped their actions. Two of the victims (1 soldier, 1 civilian) actually charged the shooter with chairs, but both were shot and died before they could reach him.

The heroine female police officer (Munley) was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, she was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The 5.7x28mm bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/

"I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all."

"I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed."

So reputation is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the .22LR, but reputation is totally relevant when it comes to the dozens of five-seven shootings in Mexico???

You are the only one talking about "reputation" (i.e. hearsay). I am talking about hundreds upon hundreds of verifiable cases in which people were shot with 5.7x28mm; those cases have solidly established that the 5.7x28mm is every bit as effective as the common pistol calibers, even with FN's factory loads (EA's loads are much hotter).

 

[DoomGoober]

Here's the conundrum I'm hearing:
1) The only way to prove a caliber is effective is for thousands of people to be shot by it.
2) The only chance thousands of people will be shot by a particular caliber of bullet is if it is used by the military.
3) The military will not use a caliber unless it is proven effective.

Ergo, the military will never use any new calibers (unless we wait a couple of hundred years for enough bodies to pile up in Mexico.)

I can't help but imagine there's a more effective way to check the efficacy of a bullet other than shooting a thousand people. Maybe we should all try hunting with a 5.7?

There are many reasons beyond efficacy that NATO and other militaries would choose to use or not use a particular caliber or weapon... remember, the Sig226 lost to the 92 not because the 92 was better -- but because it was cheaper.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

My understanding is that its illegal to import ammo to sell to civilians for handguns but once its here its free game.

There is no ammo for the FiveseveN that I know of that is currently illegal to be purchased by civilians. SS190, the military AP round, doesn't fall under the classification of armor piercing by the ATF and is perfectly legal to own by civilians (weird huh?). It is FNH themselves that restrict factory purchases of 190 to military and law enforcement only. But as you can see, SS190 is readily available on the secondary markets to civilians.

The specialty ammo that I carry comes from EA and performs even better than the military SS190 round. The other round(s) I was mentioning earlier that are really nasty are again restricted by the manufacturer and tracked to help prevent legitimate buyers from reselling to civilians. I have no doubt that some civilians own some of these "secret" rounds but you will never get them to admit it.. lol

Regardless, the ammo readily available through EA is fully legal and outperforms FNH's best stuff (SS190).

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Here's the conundrum I'm hearing:
1) The only way to prove a caliber is effective is for thousands of people to be shot by it.
2) The only chance thousands of people will be shot by a particular caliber of bullet is if it is used by the military.
3) The military will not use a caliber unless it is proven effective.

Ergo, the military will never use any new calibers (unless we wait a couple of hundred years for enough bodies to pile up in Mexico.)

I can't help but imagine there's a more effective way to check the efficacy of a bullet other than shooting a thousand people.

There is, it's called ballistics testing.

For example, take a round known for killing a lot of people, use it as a benchmark to test new rounds through a controlled medium. This has been done with the 5.7 using the .45 as a benchmark. So, if we can agree that the .45 has been a good "man-stopper" over the years, capturing it's damage potential in a medium and then comparing it to the 5.7x28mm should give us a pretty good idea of the effectiveness of the FiveseveN right?

Here are the results of a recent independent test:

As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target.

Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers.

Bada Bing, Bada Boom....

 

[DoomGoober]

Thanks G|0cKbYtE. My tongue was firmly in cheek when I said it. =)

"My goodness, we can get to the moon without trying to send hundreds of failed rockets to the moon? You mean we can just think about something and do some experiments and make an educated guess without actually doing it over and over again?"

 

[Kachok]

I would never choose a low power 5.7mm projectile over a 9mm or 10mm projectile with vastly more mass/momentum. It just makes no sence to me, especialy since the armor piercing ammo is no longer available. Think about it, even with the same powder charge smaller caliber/lighter projectiles carry less wounding potnetial. Does any well renown brown bear hunter recomend a 25/06 over a 35 Whelen? Or any Elephant hunter recomend a 264 win over the 458 win? While caliber/mass is not everything it certainly has it's advantages, especaly when the KE is higher too, like the 9mm or 40S&W. Now if we were comparing the 5.56x45 to standard handgun calibers that is a no brainer, having nearly 4 times the KE more then makes up for the smaller caliber and less mass.

 

[Zerodefect]

No pics of test or weapon-check
Crazy hunting analogy-check
Bringing 5.56x45 into the conversation-check
Most likely never shot a 5.7 or PS90-check


What is it about the 5.7 that makes perfectly good posters go mad?

It's like we just dropped the M1 Garand and switched to the M16 all over again.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

No pics of test or weapon-check

Shootings in Mexico on page 5 whaaaat?

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

No pics of test or weapon-check
Crazy hunting analogy-check
Bringing 5.56x45 into the conversation-check
Most likely never shot a 5.7 or PS90-check


What is it about the 5.7 that makes perfectly good posters go mad?

It's like we just dropped the M1 Garand and switched to the M16 all over again.

Not reading one post on the thread before contributing-check!!!

Kachok's post is very similar to many detractors that "contribute" to FiveseveN threads. They burst onto the scene regurgitating misinformation, false analogies, and generally are uninterested in learning something new. It takes time and patience with these folks.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Shootings in Mexico on page 5 whaaaat?

He was being facetious.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I would never choose a low power 5.7mm projectile over a 9mm or 10mm projectile with vastly more mass/momentum.

Low power?

9mm Federal HST 124gr 1150fps - 364 ft-lbs

5.7x28mm EA S4M 28gr 2600fps - 405 ft-lbs

Now 10mm is a whole other ballgame. BUT... are we talking about full power 10mm? Or are we talking about the watered down stuff that we mostly see available?

10mm Fed Hydra-Shok 180gr 1030fps -424 ft-lbs

This 10mm round is very close in KE to what I carry in my FiveseveN

Now, there are a few small manufacturers that load the real 10mm stuff and get 700+ ft-lbs of KE out of a 180-200gr round. That is some serious power and not only blows away the 5.7, but also all the rest of the semi-auto field. Those loadings are way too much power and penetration for use against humans and are primarily used for bear protection while hiking.

I own a 10mm but don't use it as my carry weapon. It is sooooo heavy compared to the 5.7, doesn't carry as many rounds, has too much recoil with full-power loads to aim properly in a self-defense situation, and offers too much liability regarding over-penetration in the case of a shooting.

It just makes no sence to me, especialy since the armor piercing ammo is no longer available.

Which armor piercing round do you want? The factory SS190?

Here you go:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=250146714

How about after market penetrating ammo at a much better price? Try Elite Ammunition.

Think about it, even with the same powder charge smaller caliber/lighter projectiles carry less wounding potnetial.

5.7mm has bullet behavior similar to a rifle. It is apples and oranges when comparing to common calibers like 9mm, .40, and .45.

5.7x28mm tumbles minimizing over-penetration and dumping all its energy in the target. 5.7 also creates massive wound channels (4+ inches) - something that 9mms, .40s, and .45s find hard to duplicate even with great expanding rounds like Federal HST.

The scientific studies as well as real shootings have shown that the 5.7x28mm has great wounding potential.

While caliber/mass is not everything it certainly has it's advantages, especaly when the KE is higher too, like the 9mm or 40S&W.

9mm, .40, and .45 caliber rounds do not have more energy than what I carry in my FiveseveN.

Now if we were comparing the 5.56x45 to standard handgun calibers that is a no brainer, having nearly 4 times the KE more then makes up for the smaller caliber and less mass.

And why do you think the 5.56 round has more power than the handgun calibers? It is going faster. That is what is happening with the 5.7. The round I carry in my FiveseveN goes over 3x faster than a .45 caliber round. That is how I can have more energy at 28grains vs 230grains. Add in the tumbling bullet behavior and now you have large wound channels out of a small bullet. It's very simple once you take a moment to think about it.

Small and fast = light weight, low recoil, high capacity, flat trajectory, and tight bullet groups. A high-tech solution for the soldier of the future.

And things will continue to get lighter and faster until we are shooting laser guns like Star Wars I presume.

 

[Zerodefect]

He was being facetious.

I was being facetious.

This is such a rabid topic we allmost need to call out "Pics or it didn't happen" when someone says it's weak or whatever. I'll even believe them.

 

[amd6547]

I have no doubt the 5.7 is suitable for SD. All that keeps me from buying one is the price of the pistol...or for that matter, the PS90.
Were the pistol priced similarly to a Glock, I would own one tomorrow. The PS90 intrigues me a lot. I think it would make an excellent HD weapon. In Ohio where I live, though, I would be limited by state law to 30rd mags. Not a problem, but still...

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I never knew there was such a law that prohibted you from owning a mag with more than 30. I thought it was 15 like in New Jersey. Anyone know what the price is that CDNN is selling them for? You have to call to find out.

 

[Zerodefect]

I have no doubt the 5.7 is suitable for SD. All that keeps me from buying one is the price of the pistol...or for that matter, the PS90.
Were the pistol priced similarly to a Glock, I would own one tomorrow. The PS90 intrigues me a lot. I think it would make an excellent HD weapon. In Ohio where I live, though, I would be limited by state law to 30rd mags. Not a problem, but still...

You can own a 50 round mag in Ohio. Just don't ever use it. It's ok to keep one if say, you plan on attending a carbine class in a free state. It comes with a 30rd mag anyways. You can chop the base plate to make it 48-50 (depending on how well you chop it).

I'll probally have $2500 in my PS90 when I'm done with it. I got one of the early "good" ones from the first batch. Hopefully it'll be collectable. I mothballed to ring sight and put an Aimpoint M3 in a low mount.

But that was a mistake. I sold the low mount and Aimpoint. The PS90 works best with the sight nice and high like the USS FN rail setup, not low. So now I have a top rail on order from Promoted Pawn and a Eotech XPS 2 on order from Fin.

 

[Kachok]

Not reading one post on the thread before contributing-check!!!

Kachok's post is very similar to many detractors that "contribute" to FiveseveN threads. They burst onto the scene regurgitating misinformation, false analogies, and generally are uninterested in learning something new. It takes time and patience with these folks.

OK I have never had to shoot and kill anyone, so I cannot say from experence that the 9mm kills faster then the 5.7mm, but I have been a hunter for 23 years, and if you compare bullets of identical KE but with vastly different caliber/mass there is never any comparison. A 223 has more KE then your factory 44 mag loads, I have seen the effects of both on game and there is simply no comparison. While the 223 makes a poor/marginal deer bullet, the 44 mag has taken large dangerous game in Africa (including cape buffalo) and the world record polar bear was taken with the 44. You can talk all you want about energy dump and "hydrostatic shock" but results like that speak for themselves.
To anwser another post the 9mm is in fact capable of more energy then the 5.7 like my choice the 115 Carbon which makes 466 ft/lbs I understand there are some even hotter then that. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=113438
I am no rookie when it comes to the study of terminal ballistics. There is no magic bullet, energy, mass/momentum and caliber determine wounding potential, bullet construction brings it all together, and I would happily debate anyone on that.

 

[amd6547]

The 6.5 Mannlicher was used in Africa to take game up to elephant...and eskimos are known to have used the 22mag to kill polar bear...Doubtful whether they applied for any "world record" status.
Big game analogies are a thin reed when discussing self defence cartridges.

 

[Kachok]

The 6.5 was used because of it's amazing penatration with it's crazy high SD. Elephant hunting is all about getting a bullet to the brain and nothing does that quite like those 160gr 6.5mm javlins. I have heard of Eskimos hunting polar bear with a 243 but a 22 mag is a new one on me, do you have a realiable source for that information? I would be most intrested to see.

 

[amd6547]

I don't wish to derail this thread. But, a short google confirms that 22 mag and 223 are predominant eskimo hunting cartridges for game of all sizes, along with 22lr for smaller game.
Lightweight, easy to transport in quantity...and used by shooters who depend upon shot placement to kill cleanly and minimize pelt damage.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I have no doubt the 5.7 is suitable for SD. All that keeps me from buying one is the price of the pistol...or for that matter, the PS90.
Were the pistol priced similarly to a Glock, I would own one tomorrow. The PS90 intrigues me a lot. I think it would make an excellent HD weapon. In Ohio where I live, though, I would be limited by state law to 30rd mags. Not a problem, but still...

1,100 for a pistol is a lot of money and not everybody can afford it. But, if you are questioning the value of the pistol at that price and would purchase one if you were convinced the value justifies the price, then you need to get to a range and shoot one. The FiveseveN will be one of the funnest pistols you have ever shot.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The 6.5 was used because of it's amazing penatration with it's crazy high SD. Elephant hunting is all about getting a bullet to the brain and nothing does that quite like those 160gr 6.5mm javlins. I have heard of Eskimos hunting polar bear with a 243 but a 22 mag is a new one on me, do you have a realiable source for that information? I would be most intrested to see.

There are alot of Eskimos that hunt to stay alive and alot of them also use .22 Long Rifle to take pretty much anything that lives up there.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

While owners are telling everyone else to shut up. Yeah, not much of a conversation possible.

Nobody hear is telling anyone to "shut up". There are several of us here in this thread who are genuinely trying to make legitimate discussion, addressing both the strengths and weaknesses, as well as the facts and errors regarding the weapon system.

The problem is, a veritable flood of people who admit to having no experience with the gun or cartridge keep popping up and re-posting the same errors and inaccuracies over and over and over again, just to clutter up the discussion.

Many People who have never even held, let along fired, the pistol in question are 100% convinced that they know everything about the gun and cartridge because they have already read about it on the internet.

 

[Kachok]

Well I cannot speak for Eskimos hunting Yeti with a BB gun but what is tangiable and provable is that there is no messure of performance in which the 5.7 is superior to the 9mm or .40 S&W not in energy, not in momentum, and certainly not in cross section. I see absolutly no reason the 5.7 would yeild anywhere near the soft tissue damage of more conventional handgun calibers, before anyone goes into a rant about energy dump, lets all remember that according to the FBI ballistics lab acceptable penatration for human targets is 14" almost all defence ammo for 9mms 40s and 45s are designed to distribute their energy within that zone. This is a well established fact and has been confirmed by countless ballistics gel tests, and as far as "hydrostatic shock" goes that is a messurable pressure wave that is a multiple of speed AND cross section, not speed alone. The ONLY advantages of the 5.7 is it's ability to defeat soft body armor (LE Version) and it's minimal recoil which makes accuracy on full auto easier, neither of which is of any real benifit to civilain shooters with semi auto firearms.