house robbed today while everyone slept.

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The argument here seems to be when does the threat end. IF the intruder is running out with my computer in their hands. I think that would be considered THREAT ENDED.

If he is running out with a gun in his hand...we should all agree threat is NOT necessarily over and one can assume "bodily harm or death is a real potential threat and they pose a reasonable risk. Thus giving them "permission" to use force to stop that threat.

I would say case law and common sense must come in to play when using deadly force in FL.


Perhaps my wording, because I was not proofreading and feriously typing away was misconstrued! Should my father have witnessed the intruder heading out the back door with the computer I would NOT and WAS NOT advocating use of deadly force.

Maybe, if as I suspect, he is the neighbors kid, chasing him down and giving him a good old fashioned [] whipping and letting the police deal with him but I would not, nor would I advise my father to use deadly force.

IF my father happens to WALK out of the bedroom and seeing him coming through the window, I dont care what he has in his hands, Castle doctorine CLEARLY says you have the right to defend with up to deadly force should you catch them in the act of illegally and forceibly entering your dwelling.
 
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I did not intend to sound as if I said anyone in my house is going to be killed. As I said I am typing without proofreading, perhaps my sentences were misconstrued or taking out of the context I intented.

With an MBA and CJ work experience , I have enough common sense and knowledge to decide from right, wrong and just totally ignorant.
 
Didn't read all the replys.
And I am not sure the age of your parents.
Before my dad passed away the last few years of his life he became way over trusting.
He would answer the door to any who knocked at the door day or night.
In the store he would stand there in line with a wad of money counting out what he thought he would need instead of just having a single ten or twenty dollar bill and so on.
Very frustrating watching your folks go down this road.
So I feel for you there Dennis.
Perhaps if you could get a cop over there to show them some area crime statistics maybe that might bring them out of their sleep.
I dont know.
 
joe horn hadda go before a grand jury and it coulda gone the other way easily. the police did not give him a pass because of texas law
 
Posted by DennisRL: It has been taught to me by attorneys and NRA firearm instructors that a fleeing felon, even though not currently aggressing or attacking, still posses a real and crediblethreat, and the mere fact that they committed a felony and is still "...in the commission of a forcible felony" as the law is written, provides you with the ability to justify using force, to include deadly force to protect yourself and your family.
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I'm afraid that you have badly misinterpreted what you have been told.

First, you may not used deadly force against someone because of "the mere fact that he has committed a felony."

Second, a fleeing felon is not "still in the commission of a forcible felony" and it is therefore not possible for you to justify deadly force to prevent that felony.

Third, you cannot lawfully employ deadly force against a fleeing felon to "protect yourself and your family", because the imminent danger no longer exists.

Fourth, in those rare circumstances in which the use of deadly force against to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon may be lawful, (1) he must be escaping immediately after having committed a very heinous crime against a person and (2) the use of deadly force must be the only way to protect the public from immediate danger. Those are not the only conditions necessary to justify the shooting of a fleeing felon, by the way..

If he is running out with a gun in his hand...we should all agree threat is NOT necessarily over and one can assume "bodily harm or death is a real potential threat and they pose a reasonable risk. Thus giving them "permission" to use force to stop that threat.
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NO!

Do not confuse a "real potential threat" with imminent danger.
 
If he is running out with a gun in his hand...we should all agree threat is NOT necessarily over and one can assume "bodily harm or death is a real potential threat and they pose a reasonable risk. Thus giving them "permission" to use force to stop that threat.
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NO, you do that and you go to jail - reread Kleanbore's post above
 
I am going to make him take some kind of course
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DennisRL, I am not sure if your parents are like mine, by I doubt I could "make" my folks do anything, anymore than my kids could force me to do something. It seams to me we should be discussing what they WILL agree too. I doubt seriously they would argue the need to repair the locks and actually turn a bolt on them before retiring to bed, particularly if you simply showed up & did it. It is not perfect, but it is better than nothing, and may allow your dad the time needed to fetch his weapon and seperate mag.

Many, likely the MAJORITY of defensive shootings in the home are carried out successfully by people with ZERO tactical training, very often the elderly. BG's generaly act with haste to leave a home in which the owner is wielding a firearm. Again, not what I prefer, but better than nothing.

I far prefer training, and I practice A LOT. My dad has yet to join me. In fact, I repalce the ammo in his model 19 S&W once a year & give it a good cleaning, and that is about as far as I can go with him. I personally DO NOT want my father or mother chasing a BG out of the house. In fact, I cannot envision a scenario in which I would. They head toward an exit, and I am done with them, while remaining in a defensable position. The cops get it from there.

Good luck--
 
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Heeler they are late 50's.

The cop that responded is a good friend of mine. I went to High School with or have become friends through association with most of my local PD and its about 350 Sworn officers. I have had cops attempt to drill the "safe neighborhood, it wont happen to me" BS out of their heads. To no avail! They are clearly too stubborn.
 
Good grief Dennis that's my age.
They truely know better than this.
I cant even begin to fathom what's going on with your dad.
I am probably more aware of my surroundings now than I probably have ever been in my life.
I'm no slouch but I aint the hard running buck that I was in years past.
 
So...they don't accept the importance of closing the <dang> door, but perhaps firearms and training for armed defense are a good idea?

I absolutely agree that such would help them a great deal, but those things come with a great deal of responsibility -- to practice, to exercise strict safety protocols in storage and use, to understand some pretty gritty questions of law, etc.

There's a sense of proportion/propriety/scale here that's kind of blowing my mind. Preparing to shoot someone (possibly) dead -- but not having enough common sense to accept your responsibility for the most basic levels of self-preservation (just above feeding yourself or remembering to breathe)?

If they'd closed and locked the <dang> door, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion! I'm not sure adding firearms to this mix is at all the appropriate next step.

Kind of like saying, "Now I know you never change your oil, you routinely run out of gas, your 'check engine' light has been on for 50,000 miles, and you drive on bald tires. But I think what you need is a Ferrari." :uhoh:
 
Fleeing felon: What if...?

Kleanbore et al:

I quite agree that there is no justification for shooting a felon who is in flight after committing a burglary or robbery.

But if the victim or a witness yells "Stop!" (perhaps with the intent of making a citizen's arrest), and the felon turns around with a gun in his hand, doesn't that change everything?
 
Well, then he'd be no longer running and, once again, facing you while armed. The question is; Do you wait to determine if the BG raises his firearm against you? Will he shoot you? Will he give up?
 
That is exactly my point....Had we locked the door we wouldn't be in this situation. But now hes gotten this "I'm going to kill anyone and everyone who looks at me the wrong way"

He has made comments like "I'm not worried about it being unlocked while I am awake because I'll go get my gun" I CANNOT convinve him that you don't know who was in your house less then 24 hours ago. They could have had a gun, knife or a freaking F16 fighter jet, YOU were asleep and didn't encoutner them! That doesnt mean they wouldnt have been willing to be violent, hurt, kill or tie you up and beat the Sh!* out of you while they make off with the dog, jewelry and everything else.

He has recently purchased this gun, and with only maybe 150 rounds through it and maybe 400 rounds fired through a pistol EVER, has decided he is super gun owner who can stop any threat at any point. I would have hoped someone sneaking through early in the AM and him never hearing it would but a more realistic "YOU cant shoot the criminal that you dont see or hear" But still the back door is left unlocked while they are out front playing with the dogs and the garage door is wide open.

It is very clear that his stubbornness and laxidaisical (is that even a word) has made him and my mother the easiest of targets.

My mother will swing the door open at 10PM at night when not suspecting guests and give me father hell for waitinmg 10 seconds to look through the peephole. Hell she even puts stupid decorative flowers on the door that BLOCKS the peephole.

To be quite frank, I do not know how two educated, life-experienced people can be such idiots, especially considering someone just entered their home with them there!

I cannot convince them to change their "hey look at me, I am an easy target" ways. Mostly because they are too stubborn to listen. I just don't to come over to their home to them stabbed to death!
 
I dont know what to do. I have tried to speak with them - NO AVAIL
I have tried scaring them with horror stories my cop budies have told me of kidnappings, rape, murder, torture, hostage situations"....But like I was at 14, they are too damn smart to let that happen to them. And no Superdad has a 9mm Glock, so he can take on Al-Queda and the world.

If it wasnt for his new found "rambo-ism" I thought about walking into the garage, emptying it while they were in the house, taking the keys to the car that they sit on the drivers seat in the open garage putting it in neutral, rolling it down the driveway and starting it, and then dropping it off down the block.
 
DennisRL said:
That is exactly my point....Had we locked the door we wouldn't be in this situation. But now hes gotten this "I'm going to kill anyone and everyone who looks at me the wrong way"

He has made comments like "I'm not worried about it being unlocked while I am awake because I'll go get my gun" I CANNOT convinve him that you don't know who was in your house less then 24 hours ago. They could have had a gun, knife or a freaking F16 fighter jet, YOU were asleep and didn't encoutner them! That doesnt mean they wouldnt have been willing to be violent, hurt, kill or tie you up and beat the Sh!* out of you while they make off with the dog, jewelry and everything else.

He has recently purchased this gun, and with only maybe 150 rounds through it and maybe 400 rounds fired through a pistol EVER, has decided he is super gun owner who can stop any threat at any point. I would have hoped someone sneaking through early in the AM and him never hearing it would but a more realistic "YOU cant shoot the criminal that you dont see or hear" But still the back door is left unlocked while they are out front playing with the dogs and the garage door is wide open.

It is very clear that his stubbornness and laxidaisical (is that even a word) has made him and my mother the easiest of targets.

My mother will swing the door open at 10PM at night when not suspecting guests and give me father hell for waitinmg 10 seconds to look through the peephole. Hell she even puts stupid decorative flowers on the door that BLOCKS the peephole.

To be quite frank, I do not know how two educated, life-experienced people can be such idiots, especially considering someone just entered their home with them there!

I cannot convince them to change their "hey look at me, I am an easy target" ways. Mostly because they are too stubborn to listen. I just don't to come over to their home to them stabbed to death!
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Dennis,

Oky, now I'm confused. First you wrote that his demeanor indicates that he probably won't harm an intruder in his home or at least won't properly arm himself to but now you say his mindset is to definitely kill someone who simply looks at him the wrong way.

Which is it?
 
It seems like your parents that once loved being in a nice, secure neighborhood are coming to terms with their surroundings. They probably don't want to deal with the reality. Since he seems to be getting angry at what is going, now is the best opportunity to talk to him regarding a security system. I wouldn't force the gun issue with him. Maybe a taser, mace or some other less lethal weapon for now.

I have been talking to my own father about getting a shotgun since his neighborhood has taken a turn for the worse also. He isn't thrilled about it but I tried to explain we are in differnet times now. He is finally warming up to the idea.

Good luck.

98
 
It goes back and forth. One minute it is "I am going to wait for them to attack me on the Tile so I dont get blood on my carpet" and "I am going to threaten to shoot but NOT have a round chambered" and "I will shoot him in a limb once and give him the opportunity to flee" to "I will chase down anything that moves and shoot them unrecognizable". Being as the incident just occured, alot of it is talking out of anger. But when he calms down it goes back to the irrational rambo " I'll shoot the gun from his hand" "I'll keep it unloaded but point it in the air, and scare him off".....WELL DAD thats awesome, unless hes there to steal your jewelry to maintain his METH high, and instead he charges you and slits your throat with the broken glass from the window he just put his face through because the illicit drugs down allow his brain to work properly.
 
To be quite frank, I do not know how two educated, life-experienced people can be such idiots
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I'm feeling your pain. My parents are in their early 60s and can do some pretty dumb things from time to time.

My advice is to drive the idea that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" into their heads. They need to realize that locking their doors and being more aware is a much better defense against this sort of thing than hoping to pull a gun on a intruder caught in the act.

I simply can not fathom not wanting to "tighten up" my homes exterior defenses after a break in or burglary. The comment about "not wanting the burglar to bleed on the carpet" confirms my belief that some people are just "weird" and there is no helping them.
 
To be quite frank, I do not know how two educated, life-experienced people can be such idiots
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EVERY generation thinks that about their parents.............and then when you mature and actually GROW UP, you'll find they have a lot more wisdom in many ares than you will ever know - just because their views do not coincide with yours makes them not idiots or you Einstein

You really need some help and need to learn to leave your parents alone and stop the what if scenarios - they aren't interested in your view
 
I never said they were idiots nor nor did I claim to be Einstein..I said it seems as if my father, like teenagers know better than anyone and wo.t ever be a victim....hours after BEING A VICTIM.

The what if scenarios is called training and preparation! And in our time, society and the area they live in, (central FL) METH is a very large growing problem! And with all NASA employees fleeing the area for work elsewhere, poverty, unemployment and crime had gone WAY UP!

Leave my parents alone? Not try and convince lock the GD door? It takes 1/4 a second and cqnsave his families life!
 
You would argue that two people, who had left their door open and been burglarized less than 15 hours previous, and are arguing with me about the need to lock the doors aren't being idiots?
 
DennisRL said:
I never said they were idiots nor nor did I claim to be Einstein..I said it seems as if my father, like teenagers know better than anyone and wo.t ever be a victim....hours after BEING A VICTIM.

The what if scenarios is called training and preparation! And in our time, society and the area they live in, (central FL) METH is a very large growing problem! And with all NASA employees fleeing the area for work elsewhere, poverty, unemployment and crime had gone WAY UP!

Leave my parents alone? Not try and convince lock the GD door? It takes 1/4 a second and cqnsave his families life!
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Dennis,

You need to go back and read your own posts. This really is sounding more like anger management and control issues.

Like I stated before... You can "control" what "you" do but only "influence" what "others" do. You cannot "control" what your "father" does. You can only "influence" what your "father" does.
 
You would argue that two people, who had left their door open and been burglarized less than 15 hours previous, and are arguing with me about the need to lock the doors aren't being idiots?
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No, I have done the same inadvertantly - what I AM saying is that YOU are trying to absolutely control THEIR lives based on YOUR thoughts. I agree they need to lock the doors - which is why, if you had bothered to read the posts, I suggested getting a door closer with an auto lock on the door from the garage to the house and signing them up for ADT - YOU mentioned earlier how they didn't want a gun, how you had to "convince" them and "force" them to get a lesson or such - in short imposing YOUR view on them

Hopefully, you'll remember this when your kids try this on you later on

Just because they do not go around worrying about the BG every minute does not make them unaware, idiots or wrong - it makes their views on life different than yours - nothing more - and you need to respect that...........

Forget the gun, get a German Shepherd, plant thorny bushes under every window and install simple locks on the doors - after that, it is not your business
 
Ok, ok...let's not get too heated with each other.

Your folks have had a rude awakening. What messages they take from the experience will be their own to decide. You've tried to help them see reason (better late than never, it is supposed) but it sounds like their fear and frustration are getting the better of their logic. Further, responding appropriately to their child's (not that you are A child, but their progeny) concerns for their safety may be embarrassing and off-putting to them, as it represents a certain role-reversal they've probably not prepared to face.

If anything, I'd try to talk them gently down off the kill-em-all ledge. They very likely were in no real danger from this particular burglar. While there's no way to know for sure, they were probably the victims of their own complacency and gave a ner'do-well punk kid (very likely the local boy you suspect, or someone like him) a chance to snatch something, and that's all there was to it. The doors being locked would have likely helped a great deal. A shotgun ... really wouldn't have been the right answer.

While I think everyone should be armed and recognize their own responsibility for their security, that should come after sober reflection and careful self- and situation evaluation. Not as a panic reaction to an unpleasant incident, which leaves them both vulnerable and risks to themselves and their own loved ones.

Try to get them settled back down. Try to ease them down a bit and maybe encourage them to not sleep with one eye open and their finger on the trigger, so to speak. Continue to encourage them to LOCK the FRIGGIN' DOOR -- and enact other reasonable safety measures. (Heck, they're only in their 50s? They can learn to operate an alarm system.)

When they're over the shock of becoming a crime victim, then maybe revisit the firearms issue. Help them understand the law (make sure you really understand it yourself, though...:scrutiny:) and see that they have some realistic and effective ideas about how armed home defense should work.

(You could search her on terms like, "Don't Clear Your House," panic room, "fatal funnel," defense-not-offense, don't kill or die over "stuff", etc.)

Sounds like they're just in panic mode and they aren't prepared to think clearly under those conditions. Be patient with them, comfort them, and help them as you can, when you can.
 
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