any semi-auto suggestions for me?

I'd advise against Bushmaster, DPMS, and RRA. They all have spotty QC histories. We are advising the .22 LR for training and such because it is a lot easier to start out on a .22. Recoil is low, ammo is cheap, etc. If you have the money to shoot centerfire, by all means, shoot centerfire. It is your money. But starting out on a rifle with relatively high recoil (compared to the .22, which likely won't flinch in your hands) and light weight (multiplies recoil) could cause you to develop a flinch, hurting your shooting.

If you're saying you need a defensive firearm because someone is after you and you need a gun now, no time for training and working your way up through rimfire and such? Buy a pump shotgun with a six shot magazine tube and an 18.5" barrel.

I only advise starting on a dedicated .22 if you have a serious interest in following the AR pattern rifles in the future. If not, or you're undecided and don't want to get invested in the system yet, just buy a Ruger 10/22 and get Tech Sights for it.

But you aren't training with the same rifle. You're training with half the rifle. And you still have to pay that FFL for the lower friend.

Click to expand...

I'm training with an upper that's configured identically, but in a lower cost caliber. Whether I put that upper on the same lower as my 5.56 upper uses, or another identical lower matters not. It's the same rifle save the caliber. It lets me shoot at the nearby 25 yard indoor range when my schedule is cramped, and not waste more expensive ammo. I then have practice with same sights, same trigger, same stocks, and same cheek weld when I take the rifle with 5.56 upper out to the gun club with its real rifle range. If the rifle bays are there are all full I can swap to the .22LR & upper shoot on the pistol range until the rifle range becomes available. That way I can maximize my range time.

And this "accuracy myth" you speak of is only a myth in your head. No way that Leggo system rifle you're touting shoots as accurate as a rifle that costs the same price but comes in one piece. It just doesn't happen.

Click to expand...

My real world experience differs. AR-15s can be extremely accurate, and they're very easy to accurize.

Go find yourself a T/C rimfire and test it against your mighty AR Frankenrifle.

Click to expand...

Like I said in my last post, I own a T/C Contender. I have a .22 Mag bbl for it, and had a .22 LR bbl for it too. My dedicated .22 LR upper built with a 16" CMMG bbl. shot just as well as the 20" .22 LR bbl on the Contender, so I sold the Contender LR bbl. I still have the .22 Mag bbl because it fits a need, and I haven't found a dedicated .22 Mag AR upper yet either.

Find yourself a well built 10/22 (which you can leave in it's condition without constant swaps) and see which one is more accurate.

Click to expand...

My dedicated upper is just as accurate as my Marlin Model 60. That Model 60 is just as accurate as friends' 10/22s.

If you think it isn't more accurate to put a Green River barrel on a 10/22 with a really good trigger then you just haven't shot them.

Click to expand...

I'll see if White Oak Armament or another match grade AR bbl maker will make me a .22 LR bbl compatible with the Ceiner Atchisson / CMMG type bolts. Once I save up some more money and get Geissle trigger in one of my AR lowers it'll be a fair comparison to the tricked out 10/22.

That's my opinion. It's valid. You can argue all you want. I'm not coming off my opinion. Your problem is you really think I haven't read the reports comparing the accuracy of these setups. I've heard it all from wrong twist, to keyholing, to 1" groups at 50 yards (terrible), etc.. It's always easy to discredit anyone who disagrees with you by declaring they don't know the subject. But do you really think people are going to buy that crock of bull after seeing that technique used for the millionth time? Go ahead and give it a try. I doubt you'll sway many opinions that way. I probably won't either but at least my POV is original.

Click to expand...

Your POV is based on what you've read. My POV is based on owning & shooting traditional .22 LR rifles, a T/C Contender with various barrels including .22 LR, and a dedicated .22 LR AR upper. You've heard dedicated .22 LR uppers have the wrong twist & keyhole. I've seen that happen with conversion kits in 5.56 uppers. I've never seen it happen with dedicated uppers. My dedicated upper has a 1:16 twist barrel, which is the same as the factory bbl on a Ruger 10/22.

I don't just jump no the black rifle bandwagon that got rolling when Obama got elected. I think for myself and I don't follow trends. I don't have a Facebook account and I don't have a 1911. When I buy something it's because "I" want it.

Click to expand...

I've owned an AR-15 of one form or another since Clinton was in office. I've shoot them all of my adult life including four years in the USAF where I deployed to Iraq twice. I have more training & trigger time on AR-15s than I do any other rifle. It's not about any bandwagon: It's about shooting what I shoot best.

Like I said at the end of my last post here, I appreciate Anschutz & other finely crafted rifles. They're beautiful to look at, they handle wonderfully, and they shoot superbly. They're just not for me. I'm not trying to make you like AR-15s & other so-called black rifles. I understand they're not your thing. I had hoped you could at least appreciate them. I'm sorry that you can't.

ns66, do you mind if i ask why you feel 5 lbs is the maximum acceptable weight? A couple of things you should consider is that how heavy a rifle feels depends a lot on weight distribution and the lighter the weapon the heavier the felt recoil. Guns that are front heavy generally feel heavier than guns of the same weight with more mass towards the rear. I don't recall the exact weight off hand but my suggestion to you would be to at least handle a Colt 6720. With the pencil barrel it feels much lighter than mil spec barreled ARs. Mil spec barrels do nothing but add weight in the worst possible place.

For just about any realistic self defense scenario you will only have to support the weight of the gun for a relatively brief period.

Also, i've found that many people who have trouble racking slides of auto handguns are too tentative and find it much easier when they just use do it as one fluid motion with a firm grip and drive it back.

ns66, I'll try to help out a little more by answering some of your questions / concerns. If anything isn't clear say so, and I or someone else will explain further.

i am also interested in Kel Tec Sub 2000, but concern is first it may be too hard to rack as people here suggested? 2nd concern is is the 9mm much better than using a handgun just because sub 2000 has longer barrel? correct me if i am wrong the point of having a rifle is it has longer range and potent round like 5.56 compared to a handgun, to my understanding that's

Click to expand...

Part of the advantage to a carbine certainly is a more potent round like 5.56 / .223. The larger advantages are longer sight radius, higher velocity even with pistol type rounds from the longer barrel, and greater control of the weapon. The greater control comes from three contact points on the carbine (stock to shoulder, dominant hand on pistol grip, and and weak hand on forend) vs. the single contact point of a pistol (one or both hands on pistol grip). Those advantages also apply to a shotgun, but obviously with your limitations we don't want to introduce shotgun recoil*.

i just don't have good physical strength, i have handled military m16 it's like carrying a heavy furniture, there's just no way i can be good at it if self defense is needed, if i can get a 5lb instead of 6-7lb that could mean big jump in my ability to handle it,

Click to expand...

I'll expand upon what JustinJ has stated on Military M16s. Government profile barrels on the M16A2 and later variants are smaller diameter under the handguards to both save weight, and allow for mounting of a grenade launcher. Forward of the handguards & front sight base the barrel is a relatively heavy profile to increase durability of that exposed portion. So, not only is an M16A2 heavier than an M4 / AR15 carbine, all the extra weight is very far forward.

A 6 or even 6.5 pound carbine will feel significantly lighter than a 7.78 pound M16A2. An AR carbine with a light contour bbl, aka pencil barrel, like the Colt 6721 will weigh in at about 5.8 lbs. That's a near 26% reduction in weight over an M16A2, and that doesn't even factor in the perception of the rifle feeling even lighter because of the improved balance. Another way to look at is that the Beretta CX4 9mm carbine which weighs 5.75 lbs unloaded, and that's a carbine commonly used by folks are weight & recoil sensitive. I hope that all makes sense.

At this point, I'd recommend you go and handle various AR carbines so you can evaluate them yourself. If you find that you absolutely need the rifle to weigh closer to 5 lbs than 6 lbs I'd buy a 4.7 lb Kel Tec SU16 before I bought a plastic receiver AR of any make (carbon reenforced or not).

*There has been some discussion on another forum about using .410 pump shotguns for home defense for folks who are physically limited. It's worth considering, and you may even want to open another thread here on THR in the shotguns forum to discuss this niche use. Link to other discussion.

CJ, I love how your posts change from: (paraphrasing here) "They (dedicated .22LR AR uppers) cost $500 + shipping & FFL fee" to "Well, you still have to pay an FFL fee for the lower" and "I've read all the reports" to "Well I actually do have first hand experience."

Again, CJ, we're not trying to change your opinion. We're just providing a counterpoint to some of your more questionable assertions. Anyway, I think we've beat the .22 LR AR upper horse to death from both sides of the issue, and then kept on beating this dead horse. At this point I'm going to get back to trying to help ns66 find a firearm that works within his or her needs & limitations. I hope you'll do the same.

btw i am just curious why people stay away from carbon in general so much, i am all for new technology and will keep an open mind until i see consistent evidence that it breaks,

Click to expand...

A couple of things. First, the Carbon 15 line isn't a woven carbon fiber sheet / epoxy laminate that we think of when we say something is made from carbon fiber. They're just plastic with bits of carbon in the mix for added strength. Second, is the application. AR-15 barrels are held on by a castle nut which screws over a relatively thin section of the upper receiver. Likewise, the receiver extension (aka the buffer tube) screws into a relatively thin section of the lower receiver. Plastics (and even woven carbon fiber laminates) don't hold threads very well in high stress applications. Molding in a metal thread insert only makes the surrounding plastic thinner.

The Carbon 15 line is the only polymer AR upper out there, which tells us something. There are only a few companies offering polymer AR lowers, compared to the myriad of manufacturers making both their own aluminum lowers & branding them for other companies.

There are some workarounds if you want to use plastics though.

Cavalry Arms made what was the most durable polymer lower offered. This lower did not truly have a receiver extension because the buttstock & buffer tube were integral to the molding of the lower receiver. Unfortunately Cav Arms had some legal issues & lost their firearms manufacturing license.

The Kel Tec SU16 line, while not AR-15 rifles also give us a lesson. To maximize the strength of these rifles at the barrel / receiver junction Kel Tec chose not to use a thread in bbl. setup. Instead they opted to mechanically press fit the barrels to the receivers on the SU16 rifles.

Clear as mud?

LOL yeah I don't "get it". You still end up with half rifles that cost more than whole rifles that shoot better. I've shot my share of T/C rifles. You're talking about needless complexity, more money, and less accuracy with AR/M4 type weapons. And training with "rifles you're going to use in battle? You going to Afghanistan? Just how many shootouts does your LEO department have? The ones here can afford whole rifles without having to make the swap. What happens when the "rifle you're going to use for battle" is configured wrong when you need it? Unless you have the gubmit paying for your toys or you're getting a big discount (because of being a LEO) there is no logical reason to do what you describe. I guarantee I just saw a better CQB rifle than you'll get to play with for a long time and guess what? They practice using the same ammo they intend to use for "battle". If you can afford to go the route you're talking you can afford to buy the ammo. Heck I can afford the ammo for my battle carbine and I pay retail for it (such as it is). I have several thousand rounds lying around. I'd much rather train with the ammo I'll be using than with something that doesn't aim the same, shoot the same, or deal with wind the same. That just makes no sense.

Click to expand...

Okay...first...you recognize self-defense as a legitimate use of a firearm? Yes? Good. Home defense...AR-15...See how they work together? So you may have to bet your life on an AR-15 at some point if that is your choice self-defense weapon.

Now, centerfire ammo (5.56) is expensive. I know this all too well, I shoot an awful lot of 5.56. By contrast, .22 LR isn't expensive. It will pay for itself very quickly, as in under 1000 rounds, then you're saving money shooting .22 LR. I know this, I went the .22 LR alternate upper route. Brownells and others have very affordable .22 LR conversions and uppers available. The conversions are quite accurate as well as the dedicated uppers (which will shoot just as well as a Marlin Model 60), go to vuurwapenblog.com and look it up.

Now, is a Marlin model 60 a good training platform for an AR-15? No, didn't think so.
So, see how the conversions make sense?

On the subject of "oh noes, I have my .22 LR upper on my defensive gun" this is called dumb. You know the solution? Be intelligent. Store AR-15 in combat configuration. It doesn't take that long to pull two pins and swap uppers.

This is all going on the assumption the OP wants to use an AR-15 for defense. If not, I'm wasting my time trying to show him the logical reasons for training with a .22 LR AR-15.

Off my soapbox.

Specs are available here:

http://clydearmory.com/colt-ar6720.html?SID=6q329k8ct96vnn3b26oqlq18p7

I would get a del-ton sport model ar, but only after you have got a semi-auto22 and gotten used to it.

ns66, if you end up with an AR, and it sounds like you will, you may want to consider adding a good muzzle brake to it. An off the shelf AR will come with a flash hider, normally called a "birdcage". The flash hider just screws on to the barrel, and so you can easily remove it and replace it.

A muzzle brake works to eliminate muzzle "jump" and can also reduce the recoil impulse. The .223/5.56 round does not have a lot of recoil, but does have a fair muzzle jump with a standard birdcage. A good brake will make shooting the rifle even more pleasant to shoot, with one caveat - some brakes make the rifle a great deal louder, particularly for people standing off to the side of the rifle when it's being shot. To the shooter there is almost no difference in loudness.

While not exactly cheap, but still a good deal and very effective is the PWS FSC556 brake. Definitely worth consideration.

How about a pistol-caliber carbine?

http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/

Very easy to handle and shoot and uses pistol magazines.

I don't think starting out with a 5.56 AR is too bad of an idea. Assuming you have a knowledgable shooter to give you a lesson or two, starting with the 5.56 isn't that difficult. Lots of raw recruits in our armed forces have never fired a rifle before and learn without incident on the M-16.
But a good .22LR rifle is still what I'd call essential to any collection. You should have one if possible. You can shoot 500 rounds of .22 for less than $20. Show me a source of 5.56 ammo that cheap and I'll buy it all!

Maybe I missed it but other than some vague references to home defense and target shooting I haven't seen you say exactly what you want out of the rifle. If you're considering it for HD you may want to look at the more "standard" (pistol/shotgun) first. Each system has its pros and cons of course and it will be up to you to decide what suits you best. For me, I don't see the disadvantages such as length, weight etc of a rifle to outweigh its advantages in a home defense situation.

The best advantage you will have in a SD scenario is practice. IMO the "best" home defense weapon is going to be the one you're the most familiar and comfortable with--whether it's a carbine, rifle, pistol, revolver etc. The only way to achieve this is to spend time (and money) putting rounds down range.

It sounds like this may be your first rifle or you have limited experience with them in general. If that is the case a 22LR will be perfect for your situation. As many others have stated you can get a rifle for <$200 and ammo to practice with is dirt cheap compared to any centerfire. No it isn't the best caliber for home defense, and no if you're plinking with a 10/22 the controls and ergonomics are not going to translate directly to an AR. However all the time spent at the range learning marksmanship skills, trigger control, shooting accurately etc will carry over to every other rifle you own now or in the future. Don't look at purchasing a 22lr as wasted money that could have been put towards an AR...it is actually an investment in your shooting future IMO.

If you have the finances to shoot a 223 as much as a 22LR then more power to you. IMO you'd still be better off learning the basics on a 22lr and going from there. If you are simply learning the basics there's no need to spend exponentially more money shooting a centerfire "just because". If you're still determined to buy a centerfire then there have been plenty of good suggestions already posted. I would also look at a Saiga in 223, 7.62x39 or 5.45. The 5.45 would make a great range toy with all the cheap milsurp ammo available.

Good luck!