I Pocket Knife: A Tale of Petty Tyranny and the TSA

bomberbill357 said:

Alot of the rules seem overly strict and arbitrary but I prefer them rather then living thru another 9-11.

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Those rules don't do a damn thing to prevent another 9-11. They are there to give the impression that something is being done, even though the actual rules themselves are ineffectual and pointless. The really puzzling thing to me is you correctly identify the rules as arbitrary and overly strict; but apparently feel that accepting arbitrary and overly strict rules on your travel is the lesser evil?

If 5 guys decide to hijack a plane with their bare hands, I figure they have the rest of us passengers to deal with bare handed and I like the odds.

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You could give those 5 guys khukris or semi-autos, if the remaining passengers decide to attack them on an airplane, those 5 guys are going to lose. 9-11 was about mindset, not weapons. Prior to that time, getting hijacked typically meant you were going to be inconvenienced for a time; but you were probably going to walk away alive. The difference between UA 93 and the other flights is UA 93 understood that they weren't going to walk away unless they fought back.

9-11 was about mindset, not weapons.

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Bart said what I feel.

SleazyRider said:

I do not understand why the TSA can't have a stack of small manila envelopes available, to afford the passenger the opportunity to place the offensive article in the envelope, address it, and place it in a USPS box to be mailed back to the owner postage due.

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Nearly every major airport does offer the service that you mentioned. Most of them make you enter your address, swipe your credit card, and drop the item through a slot (usually the TSA agent does this last step, for security reasons).

I didn't want to bring it up in my earlier post because I didn't think it would add value, but if you are flying out of an airport that is large enough to have a parking garage, and the agent tells you that they do not offer this service, you should politely ask to speak to their supervisor. Even if they don't officially offer it as a service, you may be able to talk to supervisor into holding the item until your return trip or posting it for you if you happen to have a few dollars in your pocket to cover the expense (I have seen both of these things happen).

Another reason to make roadtrips. I can't imagine holding on to the same pocket knife for that long!!! I always pickup the el cheapo $1 pocket knives at walmart and am lucky to keep it for 2 weeks, let alone 27 yrs.

Any pocket knife is an inferior weapon to a three foot long "walking stick" that can legaly be carried on any domestic or international flight. A big pocket folder or even a 12 inch Bowie is no match for a yard long stick in the hands of a man who knows how to use it.

"Any pocket knife is an inferior weapon to a three foot long "walking stick" that can legaly be carried on any domestic or international flight. A big pocket folder or even a 12 inch Bowie is no match for a yard long stick in the hands of a man who knows how to use it."
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Absolutely!

Maybe that's one reason I don't care if I can't have a knife on a flight. I'm not about to engage in a knife fight in the air or on the ground. To me, a knife is absolutely the worst self defense tool around. Too dangerous to both parties. I'll take any kind of stick over a knife any day. And as discussed here many times, a stick can go anywhere with you.

I think a 2 foot piece of pickax handle should be handed to everyone coming on board the plane. If somebody tries to light up his underwear, everyone in arms length clobber him. At the end of the flight, drop your length of pickax handle in the blue bin by the door. Just like the 3-D glasses at the Imax theaters. No fuss no muss anti hijacker program needing only a minor cost to the airlines. To make it really appealing, all those who get a hit in on the would be terrorist gets a 50% rebate on their ticket.

Carl.

Carl, I believe you have won "post of the day".....

I hate to sound condescending to TSA workers, but in my opinion, if you want better airport security, start requiring more than a high school diploma. Require POST certification, or a college degree or a two year TSA certification or something. Also, pay those people commisserate to the level of service and duty expected. I can virtually guarantee that a smaller but far more professional, trained and well-paid TSA workforce will provide ten times the security at a similar cost that it takes to convince lackluster, uncaring workers to schlep around like they do now.

You can throw all the money at security gadgets that you want, but until you have a better trained workforce who thinks of their job as a professional career as opposed to just a job, all you are going to have is a bunch of semi-trained jerks with a inflated sense of authority making poor decisions based on the age-old bureaucratic principal of CYA.

Carl, I believe you have won "post of the day"....

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perhaps post the year !

all I can say to those that lose a knife or other forbid item at the airport.. " quityerbitchin "

So Carl ( who I count as a friend) and I get on plane with our canes. Somedude tries to ignite his skivvies. while two of buddies rush the cock pit. We subdue all 3 in short order. We get invited to the white house to get a medal from the prez.

On second thought lets not fly Carl.

Now with the latest "underwear bombers " I am thinking ,isn't all this pocket knife nonsense just that ? Kevin

911 is over

The terrs on the 3 planes got away with it by surprize and because the cockpits weren`t locked. The Proud Civilians (braver than any TSA crew) on the Pennsylvain flight knew what the game was and had no trouble beating the terrs.

If the government would stop stealing pocketknives tommorrow, it would result in absolutely no new hijackings!

Just remember: Israeli airport police don't inspect a single person, they just watch every person in the airport. They also happen to have the safest airline system in the world.


Yes, profiling DOES work!

"So Carl ( who I count as a friend) and I get on plane with our canes. Somedude tries to ignite his skivvies. while two of buddies rush the cock pit. We subdue all 3 in short order. We get invited to the white house to get a medal from the prez.

On second thought lets not fly Carl."
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You're right Doc. It wouldn't be worth it.

Carl.

I have carried knives as tools since I was a kid with no thought to using them as weapons. I get a little put out at authority figures always assuming the worst of people. The only security concern might be if some psycho swiped the knife from me.

I probably won't fly again anyway, but the idea of having to do a mental Dog Bounty Hunter perp walk prep "Do you have anything on you that you don't want to be caught with in jail, get rid of it now" pre-flight interrogation of myself just makes me go aign.

You know, I have to fly a lot on business, and I don't find it so hard to either put my pocket knife in checked luggage or simply leave it at home.

Air travels have always been stressy for me. Narrow seats. Often delayed. Lots of waiting. Noisy.

Not beeing able to bring a knife is probably the least important reason why I don't enjoy flights.

But on the other hands, without airplanes I wouldn't have seen some of the most beautiful places, wouldn't have met some fantastic people, wouldn't have gotten to the decent income I now have, and would have spent a huge amount of my lifetime sitting in cars (= traffic jams) and trains (= delays galore).

So all in all, it's a good thing that air travelling exists.

Would I prefer beeing able to bring my pocket knife along? Sure. Is it a big deal that I can't do that? Not to me, no.

JoergS said:

You know, I have to fly a lot on business, and I don't find it so hard to either put my pocket knife in checked luggage or simply leave it at home.

Air travels have always been stressy for me. Narrow seats. Often delayed. Lots of waiting. Noisy.

Not beeing able to bring a knife is probably the least important reason why I don't enjoy flights.

But on the other hands, without airplanes I wouldn't have seen some of the most beautiful places, wouldn't have met some fantastic people, wouldn't have gotten to the decent income I now have, and would have spent a huge amount of my lifetime sitting in cars (= traffic jams) and trains (= delays galore).

So all in all, it's a good thing that air travelling exists.

Would I prefer beeing able to bring my pocket knife along? Sure. Is it a big deal that I can't do that? Not to me, no.

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The voice of reason. Thank you!

They are now expanding from airports to highways, train stations, and street corners.

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Actually you left out bus stations/buses ie Houston a couple of weeks ago; google it channel 4 news.

I am a private pilot and have been flying since 1992. Even though it cost alot more and usually is alot slower I prefer to fly myself rather than go through the hoops of the TSA. it has really gotten out of control. I understand trying to keep air travel safe, but this is a little too much. The last time I flew commercially, I watched a lady "violated" in one of their screening booths. It was sad. I feel like the prevention methods are getting completely out of hand.

I am angry at the TSA. Despite all the technology available to them and other law enforcement agencies, they couldn’t figure out that a middle-aged man in a stable marriage, with no criminal record, with two decades of steady professional employment, two well-adjusted teenage kids, and more than 500,000 frequent flier miles under his belt was not a threat to himself or the passengers on that plane.

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Because there is no way any person with ill intentions could find a person like that and get them, through duress (say by holding one of those well-adjusted teenagers or well-loved wife) to smuggle something in and then pass it off to them and use it for nefarious purposes.

This gent ought to familiarize himself with the principle of the least cost avoider. TSA could perhaps garner all that info. They could do all kinds of things to have made him not lose his knife. However, it is much easier, and cheaper, to simply put the onus on those that would fly to not bring contraband. Is that really asking too much of an adult? One can debate whether or not knives should be allowed in airports or any other secure facility but the fact is they are not and everyone knows it.

He was a nonperson, without rights or claims to civil liberties.

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This is a ridiculous statement. Which of the owner’s rights or civil liberties were violated? They actually were rather nice by offering to let him go back and mail it home. In many places, trying to take a dangerous weapon into a secure area, such as the secured part of an airport, is a crime (or infraction) and the person could be detained, charged and tried. He could have missed his flight, been cited or even arrested, and ended up paying a $300 fine. I'd say the agents treated him alright.

See e.g. http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052900.htm

TSA consciously and self-righteously tramples on the very civil liberties that this nation was founded to protect.

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Again what civil liberty is TSA violating? I have law degree. I have studied a fair amount of constitutional law. I have a poly sci degree I have studied the founding of this nation and the men and principles involved a fair amount. For a long time I dealt with search and seizure issues almost daily. I fail to see what right has been violated here. The fact that he doesn’t attempt to articulate any is telling.

The owner was irresponsible. He did something everyone knows you cannot do, and now he is crying about how mean TSA is. If you want to argue it is an ineffective policy, then do that. If you want to argue it violates rights then articulate that argument, don't make a simple conclusory statement.

It isn't just the TSA. I can't carry a pocket knife at work.

It is a terminable offense.

We have allowed ourselves to become an abomination to the Founders through our laziness and our acceptance of things we knew were wrong

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And where do you work? Is this a government job? Is it private?

I haven't/won't submit to such illegal searches and seizures even if it means not flying commercial ever again.

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Please articulate in detail why a TSA checkpoint is an illegal search and how what is described in that blog post constitutes an illegal seizure?

Flying commercial is also a 99% certainty of picking up some kind of bug, costing at least hours, if not days of productivity upon reaching ones destination. Out of the last 5 times I flew commercial, I got sick... you guessed it... 5 times. The knives that I didn't lose were the least of my worries. I used to fly with a "CIA letter-opener" which amounted to a nylon dagger but even it fell victim at some clandestine location... I digress...

How many terrorists do we have here on The High Road? Stand up and represent! I see zero. TSA needs a fast-track for THR members, military/LEO, senior citizens et al who are obviously not a threat. Heck, pack every plane 25% with M4 wielding soldiers or other LEO and just forgo the searches altogether.

Please articulate in detail why a TSA checkpoint is an illegal search and how what is described in that blog post constitutes an illegal seizure?

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Not exactly like the following but kinda:

It is through such nefarious manipulations that confusion regarding the relationship of a people and with its government emerges, wherein the Master -- the people -- become the Servant, and the Servant -- the government -- becomes the Master. Such is the transformation from Freedom to Tyranny when Rights are converted into Privileges.

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So we have the right to freely travel and move about, with a TON of strings attached. Strings that get more numerous and invasive over time. We are being manipulated in the biggest of ways. 99% of this has already been written in history but we are collectively short-sighted.

Just curious, but isn't what the TSA doing a violation of the 4th Amendment (Freedom from illegal search and seizure)?

They don't have a warrant to search you or your belongings, or any legal reason to be stealing your stuff. Someone with some money should start a lawsuit... This is why we need to be vigilant about keeping the 2nd Amendment; so that it doesn't just disappear like the 4th.

The fourth amendment actually states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.(emphasis added)

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The fourth amendment does not prevent all searches, only unreasonable ones. There is also no per se requirement for a warrant in order for a search to be reasonable. There are a great number of circumstances in which warrantless searches are reasonable and constitutional.

Before that person with money starts their suit he or she may want to do a modicum of legal research. If he or she does then he or she will quickly discover that airport screenings have been upheld as not being a violation of that principle. See: United States v. Aukai, 497 F.3d 955 (9th Cir. 2007) (en banc); U.S. v. Davis 482 F.2d 893, 908 (9th Cir. 1973); see also United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174, 178 (3d Cir.), cert. denied, 127 S. Ct. 111 (2006).


Airport screening searches are okay if they meet the following standard. It "is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives [] [and] that it is confined in good faith to that purpose." Davis, 482 F.2d at 913.

Given the need to secure certain areas, prisons, courts, airports, etc a search to enter is not unreasonable.

This is why we need to be vigilant about keeping the 2nd Amendment; so that it doesn't just disappear like the 4th

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In a great number of ways the 4th has actually been bolstered since the time of the founding.

So we have the right to freely travel and move about, with a TON of strings attached.

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Could you please cite to the part of the US constitution that gives you a right to freely travel? Lets assume that you have constitutional right right to travel. After all the SCOTUS has recognized it at least in terms of freedom to move between states. And federal law, 49 U.S.C. § 40103, provides "A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace." International travel is subject to many more restrictions. That said, what are the "TON" of strings attached? That if you chose to travel by a plane you are not allowed to bring a dangerous weapon or explosive on board and that you must go through minimal intrusive security checks to assure you don't.

Minimally intrusive? I suspect we have different concepts of both minimal and intrusive if you feel TSA meets that standard. I personally feel TSA ia arbitrary and capricious in their rules and if there is one thing I like less than having arbitrary and capricious rules strictly enforced, it is having them enforced by idiots who must be given "zero-tolerance" guidelines because they can't be trusted to exercise good judgment or common sense in determining how to handle borderline cases.

I've travelled in places that have as intrusive or more intrusive rules than TSA. The glaring difference was the professionalism of the people enforcing the rules and the absence of nonsensical rules that greatly contribute to hassle while offering little or no added security.

Creating TSA was a mistake. Its continued existence is an abomination.