"guns stop crime X million times per year"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Warp said:
Mostly I open carry while looking like a good, reasonable, well mannered guy who is adequately well dressed, clean shaven and polite...who basically acts as though the gun isn't even there.

I believe this reminds people that regular people like myself, not in law enforcement and not criminals, can and do carry guns....
Yes, this is a common belief held by some people who carry openly. However, I've never seen any good evidence that it's the case.

To be sure, some people aren't bothered. But how can you be sure whether or not other people are bothered. It's entirely possible that to many people the mere fact that you are wearing a gun means that you're not a "regular person", no matter how well dressed or well groomed you are.

"By carrying openly I show that normal people carry guns", seems to be an article of faith; but good evidence seem to be lacking.

Open carry can be a convenient way to carry your gun, but I question its utility as a political stratagem.
 
Jeff, I would argue that it is still defensive gun use. You didn't grab a stick of wrapping paper when you heard a bump in the night, you grabbed a gun to defend yourself from whatever bogeyman was out there. It was also defensive gun use with the intention of stopping crime. However, I agree that it was not a crime stopped by defensive gun use.

Frank, I think it depends on the person. Most people probably think you are just off-duty LEO.
 
Yes, this is a common belief held by some people who carry openly. However, I've never seen any good evidence that it's the case.

To be sure, some people aren't bothered. But how can you be sure whether or not other people are bothered. It's entirely possible that to many people the mere fact that you are wearing a gun means that you're not a "regular person", no matter how well dressed or well groomed you are.

"By carrying openly I show that normal people carry guns", seems to be an article of faith; but good evidence seem to be lacking.

Open carry can be a convenient way to carry your gun, but I question its utility as a political stratagem.
It works a lot better in states like Georgia than California, I imagine.

But, the question is...how would one find said evidence?
 
Skribs said:
Frank, I think it depends on the person. Most people probably think you are just off-duty LEO.
That's partly the point. One may reasonably expect a range of responses from, "Cool" to "Yawn" to "A nut with a gun; there ought to be a law." What the distribution is will decide whether openly carrying is politically helpful or politically harmful. But we can't know whether open carrying is doing any political good without having a better idea of that distribution. And the distribution will probably be different in different places at different times.

Warp said:
...But, the question is...how would one find said evidence?
That's a real challenge. Some tools like properly conducted surveys or focus groups can be useful in measuring public opinion. But the flip side is that without the evidence, we really can't know whether open carry, from a political perspective, is good or bad.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't be carrying openly if you find that a convenient way to wear your gun. But it does mean that you should not be assuming that carrying openly is a positive political act.
 
That's partly the point. One may reasonably expect a range of responses from, "Cool" to "Yawn" to "A nut with a gun; there ought to be a law." What the distribution is will decide whether openly carrying is politically helpful or politically harmful.

Even the distribution won't answer that question. The way I see it, all that matters is the impression left on the fence-sitters. Plenty of people will already have their mind made up for or against. That is not going to change, certainly not so quickly/simply. What matters is the impression/response from those who could yet be swayed either way. Even if 70% responded with "cool" it could possibly be nothing more than preaching to the choir. Same with the flip side.




That's a real challenge. Some tools like properly conducted surveys or focus groups can be useful in measuring public opinion. But the flip side is that without the evidence, we really can't know whether open carry, from a political perspective, is good or bad.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't be carrying openly if you find that a convenient way to wear your gun. But it does mean that you should not be assuming that carrying openly is a positive political act.

I try not to think of it as a political act. I know that, unfortunately, our Rights and free exercise thereof (or not!) comes down to politics, but that's big picture. Small picture, the people at the mall at the time that I am there, I'm not trying to sway them to support any particular political party, politician, law, bill, etc...I am just trying to expose them to a person with a gun who is not acting in a LE or criminal capacity.
 
Warp said:
...The way I see it, all that matters is the impression left on the fence-sitters. Plenty of people will already have their mind made up for or against...
Agreed. But you don't necessarily know what impression open carry, or some other activity, has on those fence sitters. And there may still be a range of reactions distributed across those fence sitters.

War said:
...Small picture, the people at the mall at the time that I am there, I'm not trying to sway them to support any particular political party, politician, law, bill, etc...I am just trying to expose them to a person with a gun who is not acting in a LE or criminal capacity.
But you still don't know how they perceive that person with a gun not how that might influence the political choices they make.
 
But you still don't know how they perceive that person with a gun not how that might influence the political choices they make.

For most of them, no, I cannot know that.

But I think of it as information, or making people aware, and I almost always consider information and awareness to be a good thing, even if people of a different viewpoint than myself don't like the information. If they assume, for some reason, that I am off duty LE then it won't hurt our cause, if they think I am 'just a guy with a gun', well, that's what I am. They can make of that what they want. My opinion is that the balance will be positive. If not, well, at least they are drawing on actual reality when making that decision.
 
Jeff, I would argue that it is still defensive gun use. You didn't grab a stick of wrapping paper when you heard a bump in the night, you grabbed a gun to defend yourself from whatever bogeyman was out there. It was also defensive gun use with the intention of stopping crime. However, I agree that it was not a crime stopped by defensive gun use.

I think if you are going to count things that go bump in the night as defensive gun uses you have to count everyone who owns a gun for defensive purposes every day. The gun on your nightstand or under your bed does the same thing every day. And to me that is what makes the numbers invalid.

And we still haven't even addressed the fact that as a culture we tend to overstate and exaggerate incidents of self defense and defensive gun use.
 
I live in a very gun friendly state, where in most areas an openly carried firearm would probably draw no attention at all.

But I often reflect on an incident posted on another board. A retired LEO was shopping at a grocery store with his granddaughter. As he bent over to pick up something on the bottom shelf, he accidentally partially exposed the firearm in the small of his back. A woman saw it and started screaming hysterically, "He's got a gun. He's got a gun."

Not connecting her screaming with his gun, he grabbed his granddaughter and took a defensive position at an empty checkout counter, gun drawn.

Of course the police were along very shortly. And they gave the hysterical woman a serious lecture on the disturbance she had caused.

If we carry concealed, usually nobody knows, and if they don't know, they don't care. It just avoids a lot of possible tension and (usually) prevents hysteria. Personally, if I see someone carrying a firearm, I feel more secure. But not everyone thinks that way.
 
Sure the first question produced incidents where people grabbed a gun in response to a perceived threat. However:

Each interview began with a few general "throat-clearing"
questions about problems facing the R's community and crime. The
interviewers then asked the following question: "Within the past
five years, have you yourself or another member of your household
used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for
the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do
not include military service, police work, or work as a security
guard." Rs who answered "yes" were then asked: "Was this to
protect against an animal or a person?" Rs who reported a DGU
against a person were asked: "How many incidents involving
defensive uses of guns against persons happened to members of
your household in the past five years?" and "Did this incident
[any of these incidents] happen in the past twelve months?" At
this point, Rs were asked "Was it you who used a gun defensively,
or did someone else in your household do this?"

Kleck & Gertz identified the critieria to seperate a "bump in the
night" from a "genuine" defensive gun use:

Questions about the details of DGU incidents permitted us to
establish whether a given DGU met all of the following
qualifications for an incident to be treated as a genuine DGU:
(1) the incident involved defensive action against a human rather
than an animal, but not in connection with police, military, or
security guard duties; (2) the incident involved actual contact
with a person, rather than merely investigating suspicious
circumstances, etc.; (3) the defender could state a specific
crime which he thought was being committed at the time of the
incident; (4) the gun was actually used in some way--at a minimum
it had to be used as part of a threat against a person, either by
verbally referring to the gun (e.g., "get away--I've got a gun")
or by pointing it at an adversary.

Kleck & Gertz themselves identified the questionable cases:
.... A case would be coded as questionable if even
just one of four problems appeared: (1) it was not clear whether
the R actually confronted any adversary he saw; (2) the R was a
police officer, member of the military or a security guard, and
thus might have been reporting, despite instructions, an incident
which occurred as part of his occupational duties; (3) the
interviewer did not properly record exactly what the R had done
with the gun, so it was possible that he had not used it in any
meaningful way; or (4) the R did not state or the interviewer
did not record a specific crime that the R thought was being
committed against him at the time of the incident. There were a
total of twenty-six cases where at least one of these problematic
indications was present. It should be emphasized that we do not
know that these cases were not genuine DGUs; we only mean to
indicate that we do not have as high a degree of confidence on
the matter as with the rest of the cases designated as DGUs.
Estimates using all of the DGU cases are labelled herein as "A"
estimates, while the more conservative estimates based only on
cases devoid of any problematic indications are labelled "B"
estimates.
The "A" estimates were 2,519,862 DGUs (one year recall) 1,884,348 (five yr.).
The "B" estimates were 2,163,519 DGUs (one year recall) 1,683,342 (five yr.).

NSDS

The idea that the 26 questionable cases out of 222 DGU
cases in a national survey sample of 4997 respondents
taints the whole study, when Kleck & Gertz gave estimates from
the 196 vetted cases as well as estimates from the 222 total,
just shows that some sources seize on the 26 questionable reports
(identified by K&G themselves) to dismiss the whole study.

And is it fair to question the integrity of Kleck & Gertz in view of the
results of the other surveys? The differences in these surveys simply
show DGU is an unsettled frontier of criminalogical research. I find it
interesting that since the "I don't want believe any good from guns"
crowd claimed that John Lott's 1997 survey never happened and
that his documented 2002 survey proved nothing new, none of the
nay-sayers have offered to conduct a refereed survey to uncover
the truth. If there have been DGU surveys since 2002 I have missed
them.

These DGU surveys show that there are significant numbers of DGU
especially when compared against the numbers of FBI UCR police
reports of crime, or even the NCVS victim surveys (which project
higher actual numbers of reported + unreported crime).

Summary of the thirteen surveys on DGU listed by Kleck & Gertz.

Code:
 FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE 
 from Kleck and Gertz 1995 Table 1                     - Excluded -    
                                      Gun     Recall  Against  By Mil  
     Survey:    Year:  Area:  Sample: Type:   Period: Animal: Police:  
                                                                   
  1. Field      1976   Calif.  NiA     Hgun    [a]      No      Yes     
  2. Bordua     1977   Ill.    NiA     All     Ever     No      No      
  3. Cambridge  1978   U.S.    NiA     Hgun    Ever     No      No      
  4. DMIa       1978   U.S.    RgV     All     Ever     No      Yes     
  5. DMIb       1978   U.S.    RgV     All     Ever     Yes     Yes     
  6. Hart       1981   U.S.    RgV     Hgun    5 yr     Yes     Yes     
  7. Ohio       1982   Ohio    Res     Hgun    Ever     No      No      
  8. Time/CNN   1989   U.S.    Own     All     Ever     No      Yes     
  9. Mauser     1990   U.S.    Res     All     5 yrs.   Yes     Yes     
 10. Gallup     1991   U.S.    NiA     All     Ever     No      No      
 11. Gallup     1993   U.S.    NiA     All     Ever     No      Yes     
 12. L.A. Times 1994   U.S.    NiA     All     Ever     No      Yes     
 13. Tarrance   1994   U.S.    NiA     All     5 yrs.   Yes     Yes
Code:
                Defensive question    % Who       [b] Implied           
     Survey:    Ask of:   Ref to:   Used: Fired:  number DGUs:
                                                          
  1. Field       All Rs         R    [a]    2.9     3,052,717    
  2. Bordua      All Rs         R     5.0   n.a.    1,414,544    
  3. Cambridge   Hgun own       R    18    12            n.a.    
  4. DMIa        All Rs     Hshld    15     6       2,141,512    
  5. DMIb        All Rs     Hshld     7     n.a.    1,098,409    
  6. Hart        All Rs     Hshld     4     n.a.    1,797,461    
  7. Ohio        Hgun hshld     R     6.5   2.6       771,043    
  8. Time/CNN    Gun own    Hshld     n.a.  9-16[e]      n.a.    
  9. Mauser      All            R     3.79  n.a.    1,487,342    
 10. Gallup      hgun hshld     R     8     n.a.      777,153    
 11. Gallup      Gun own        R    11     n.a.    1,621,377    
 12. L.A. Times  All            R     8[c]  n.a.    3,609,682    
 13. Tarrance    All        Hshld   1/2[d]  n.a.      764,036    

   ABBREV KEY:                             Own   Gun owners             
   NiA   Non-instititionalized Adult       Hgun  Handgun                
   RgV   Register Voter                    R     Respondent to survey   
   Res   Resident                          Hshld Household
Code:
  1. Field Institute, Tabulations of the Findings of a Study of 
     Handgun Ownership and Access Among a Cross Section of the 
     California Adult Public (1976).
  2. David J. Bordua et al., Illinios Law Enforcement Commission, 
     Patterns of Firearms Ownership, Regulation and Use in 
     Illinios (1979).
  3. Cambridge Reports, Inc., an Analysis of Public Attitudes Towards 
     Handgun Control (1978).
  4. DMIa & 5. DMIb from DMI (Decision/Making/Information), 
     Attitudes of the American Electorate Toward Gun Control (1979). 
  6. Peter D. Hart Research Associates, Violence in America Survey
     October 1981.
  7. The Ohio Statistical Analysis Center, Ohio Citizen Attitudes 
     Concerning Crime and Criminal Justice (1982).
  8. H. Quinley, Memorandum reporting results from Time/CNN Poll of Gun
     Owners, dated Feb. 6, 1990 (1990).
  9. Gary A. Mauser, Firearms and Self-defense: The Canadian Case,  
     Presented at the Annual Meetings of the American Society of 
     Criminology (Oct. 28, 1993).
 10. Gallup Poll 1991,  
 11. Gallup Poll 1993,  
 12. L.A. Times poll, and 
 13. Tarrance poll.  (10-13) were taken from a search of the 
     DIALOG Public Opinion online computer database.
Code:
 Notes:
 [a]. Field recall period: 1 yr, 2 yr and Ever; Use: 1.4%, 3% and 8.6%.
 [b]. Estimated annual number of defensive uses of guns of all types 
      against humans, excluding uses connected with military or police 
      duties, after any necessary adjustments were made, for U.S., 1993. 
      Adjustments are explained in detail in Gary Kleck, "Guns and 
      Self-Defense", on file with the School of Criminology and Criminal
      Justice, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL, 1994.
 [c]. Covered only uses outside the home.
 [d]. 1% of respondents, 2% of households.
 [e]. 9% fired gun for self-protection, 7% used gun "to scare someone."
      An unknown share of the latter could be defensive uses not 
      overlapping with the former.
As Kleck & Gertz 1995 pointed out, the sample selection (registered
voters, non-institutionaised adult, handgun owner, gun owner resident)
and the questions asked meant each one of these surveys was measuring
something different and they cannot be directly compared, especially
since the samples represent different years.

adapted from
Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime:
The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Table 1,
Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.
 
Kleck admitted in a radio interview that his survey counted incidents that were basically a bump in the night. There is a link to that interview in the other old thread.

His survey is slanted at least as heavily as anything Kellerman did. And it makes no allowances for the fact people routinely lie and exaggerate about their paricipation in incidents like this.

27 years law enforcement experience in a rural county with one of the highest crime rates for rural counties in Illinois has led me to be very skeptical of numbers like this.

Believe it if you want, but to me it's as flawed as Kellerman's work.
 
Kleck admitted in a radio interview that his survey counted incidents that were basically a bump in the night. There is a link to that interview in the other old thread.

His survey is slanted at least as heavily as anything Kellerman did. And it makes no allowances for the fact people routinely lie and exaggerate about their paricipation in incidents like this.

27 years law enforcement experience in a rural county with one of the highest crime rates for rural counties in Illinois has led me to be very skeptical of numbers like this.

Believe it if you want, but to me it's as flawed as Kellerman's work.

What do you say to this part of Carl N. Brown's post?


"The idea that the 26 questionable cases out of 222 DGU
cases in a national survey sample of 4997 respondents
taints the whole study, when Kleck & Gertz gave estimates from
the 196 vetted cases as well as estimates from the 222 total,
just shows that some sources seize on the 26 questionable reports
(identified by K&G themselves) to dismiss the whole study."
 
"The idea that the 26 questionable cases out of 222 DGU
cases in a national survey sample of 4997 respondents
taints the whole study, when Kleck & Gertz gave estimates from
the 196 vetted cases as well as estimates from the 222 total,
just shows that some sources seize on the 26 questionable reports
(identified by K&G themselves) to dismiss the whole study."

26 out of 222 is a pretty high percentage of questionable reports. How were the reports that they considered valid verified? No one knows. And then there is the problem of extrapolating 196 cases out of 4997 respondents and coming up with a huge nationwide number.

How was that number calculated? By the estimated number of guns in circulation and the population? That couldn't be right because guns are not evenly distributed through our society.

Then there is the problem of the location of the DGUs. Certain places in the country will naturally have higher instances then others.

At best this survey is bad guesswork and at worst it's propaganda.
 
26 out of 222 is a pretty high percentage of questionable reports. How were the reports that they considered valid verified? No one knows. And then there is the problem of extrapolating 196 cases out of 4997 respondents and coming up with a huge nationwide number.

The nationwide number is explained by statistical sampling techniques; regrettably, they're not intuitive. This treatment -- http://stattrek.com/sample-size/simple-random-sample.aspx -- is pretty approachable. But I'm not at all an expert on statistics.

The original Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology article, at page 164 (in 1995, I found this interesting enough that I bought a hard copy; transcribing is not my regular thing, so I apologize for any errors)
The methods used to compute the Table 2 estimates are very simple and straightforward. Prevalence ("% Used") figures were computed by dividing weighted sample frequencies in the top two rows of numbers by the total weighted sample size of 4,977. The estimated number of persons or households who experienced a DGU, listed in the third and fourth rows, was then computed by multiplying these pervalence figures by the appropriate U.S. population base, age eighteen and over for person-based estimates, and the total number of households for household-based estimates. Finally, the estimated number of defensive uses was computed by multiplying the number of DGU-involved persons or households by the following estimates of the number of all-guns DGU incidents per DGU-involved person or household, using a past-five-years recall period .... Therefore, for all past-year estimates, and for past-five-years handgun estimates, it was necessary to assume that there was only one DGU per DGU-involved person or household.
...
P 166-167
With a sample size of 4,977, random sampling error of the estimates is small. For example, the all-guns prevalence percent used A estimates, with a 95% confidence interval, are plus or minus 0.32% for the past year, person; 0.35% for past year, household; 0.50% for past five years, person; and 0.54% for past 5 years, household. ...

The problem with focusing on the 26 is this: IF the reports are 'false positives', THEN the effects on the results would be as critics have described.

But the critics have not conclusively demonstrated that the 26, are, in fact, bad data.

There is no more justification for feeling 'some data might be bad, therefore the study might be bad' than there is for 'the data is probably all good, therefore the study is probably good'.

But to get a followup study (NSPOF) to calculate a very similar result, with a different data set and different researchers suggests that either both studies provide reasonable estimates, or that the entire telephone-survey 'thing' is broken.

Since Gallup and others keep making money on their telephone surveys, and businesses and governments allow themselves to be influenced by the results of those surveys, the rejection of that methodology does not seem the right course.
 
I do! A few years back we had a long discussion of this. A search should find the thread. Kleck's methodolgy considered incidents where there was no proof that a crime was actually about to be committed as stopped by the presence of a firearm. For example, if someone reported they heard a noise in the yard and after arming themselves they didn't hear it anymore, he counted that as a crime prevented. I'm sorry I can't accept that methodolgy. There are links to where he admitted this methodolgy in radio interviews in the other thread. You can't claim the presence of the firearm stopped the crime if you can't even prove there was going to be a crime.

And how many instances of this do you thikk are in the data?

Under your thinking NO STUDY of ANY type could probably be performed (including medical studies).

Metrics are established at the START and then applied uniformly.

If you engage in a lot of 'rule changing' the results quickly turn into a pile of garbage with NO reliability for ANYTHING.

The only time you alter metrics is when it appears something is so bad no useful data will result, not based on a few 'outliers.'

Better is often the enemy of 'good enough.'

There are probably vanishingly few studies that satisfy the investigator perfectly by the end.
That is NOT a reason to discard large amounts of data.

Since there is NO reliable method of predicting the future in events like this, under your argument it would not be possible to do ANYTHING.

Do criminals want to be shot?
Pretty unlikely.

Will the mere threat of being shot dissuade them?
It appears to commonly be that way.

Wil all the research, studies, and analysis in the world tell you what the next guy is going to do 100% accurately?

You can be pretty damn sure it cannot.
 
Regarding the statistic in the subject line, that guns are used so many million times in self defense or to prevent crime,
I'll add that I do agree there is a difference between a 'defensive gun use' and 'preventing a crime'.

The studies usually focus on DGU; media accounts of the studies usually use the 'prevent a crime' language.
 
You can measure quantifiable things statistically. The problem is you can't measure defensive gun use because there is no way to quantify it and verify that it actually happened. People lie to telephone pollsters all the time. One just has to look at political polling and the actual results of elections. Polls are used to create news and influence people to think a certain way. You can skew the population you poll and you can skew the questions to get the poll to show anything you want it to.

When it comes to defensive gun use, unless there are some verifiable facts, a police report or some other quantifiable documentation....it never happened. People lie. People lie about their involvement in incidents to boost their ego or make themselves look good in front of others. They also often give the politically correct answer to pollsters, even if it is diametrically opposed to their own views.

You all can believe in Kleck's and Lott's work if you must. But ask yourself if you believe because the results confirm your own personal views or if you believe because these studies are factually based?

If you accept Kleck's and Lott's methodology then you have to accept Kellerman's too. In truth there is very little factual evidence in any of them.
 
When it comes to defensive gun use, unless there are some verifiable facts, a police report or some other quantifiable documentation....it never happened.

Ad that means that no research of this type can EVERY be performed.

How do you propose to measure incidents that NEVER involved the police?

Pretend that every time any person displays a gun the are going to run the risk of THEN call the police and being charged with brandishing?

Get real.

You are the ultimate example of better (or even perfect) being the enemy of god enough (or even possible).

And as noted, Kleck even ran his numbers with and without the data points in question.

Or do you just want to pretend nothing is happening?:banghead:

now you understand why there are errr bars, and on anything even cloe to illegal things tey error bars are large.

Kleck has them.

Some of his are worse than 10:1 because of uncertainty.

200,000 uses is not as many, but would still be a relevant number (and better than outright guessing).
 
brickeyee said:
...Pretend that every time any person displays a gun the are going to run the risk of THEN call the police and being charged with brandishing?...
Well he should be calling the police in any case. First, if the other guy's conduct was serious enough to draw your gun, it was serious enough to report to the police. Second, you want to make your report before he reports being threatened by some wackjob with a gun.

Of course, not everyone understands that.
 
Well he should be calling the police in any case. First, if the other guy's conduct was serious enough to draw your gun, it was serious enough to report to the police. Second, you want to make your report before he reports being threatened by some wackjob with a gun.

Of course, not everyone understands that.

He didn't say draw, he said display.
 
Warp said:
You can't be serious.
If one feels the need to display a gun because he believes the conduct of another person indicates a threat or risk (which is the context of a defensive gun use), he is doing so for the purpose of intimidation. That is how brandishing is generally defined. Brandishing is a criminal act if not justified.
 
If one feels the need to display a gun because he believes the conduct of another person indicates a threat or risk (which is the context of a defensive gun use), he is doing so for the purpose of intimidation. That is how brandishing is generally defined. Brandishing is a criminal act if not justified.

First of all, not all states even have a 'brandishing' law.

Now, to stick to my earlier scenario...if you are pumping gas and a couple of sketchy looking folks are scoping you out, so you allow the wind to move your jacket just enough that your holstered pistol is visible, and this seems to make those folks stay where they are...do you expect everybody this happens with to call the police? And do you expect the police to then record it in such a way that it is a statistic to be found and applied as a DGU at a later date?
 
Warp said:
First of all, not all states even have a 'brandishing' law.
Identify a single State in which the display of a firearm as a threat or for the purposes of intimidation could not be subject to prosecution. Support your claim with citation to applicable legal authority.

Warp said:
...if you are pumping gas and a couple of sketchy looking folks are scoping you out, so you allow the wind to move your jacket just enough that your holstered pistol is visible, and this seems to make those folks stay where they are...do you expect everybody this happens with to call the police?...
As you posit the hypothetical, you purposely and purposefully displayed the gun to intimidate someone of whom you were suspicious. Especially if you would later report it as a defense gun use on a survey, yes, it should be reported. Perhaps not everyone would.

However, in your hypothetical, the purposeful display of your gun might well not have been justified. You might well have been chargeable with brandishing or assault.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top