I have some doubters about the 1500 FPS 9mm +P+

So...Is that the cracK or not? If it is, you should think about what that crack means. Hint: It's a way bad thing. Eventual kaboom bad...and it came from recoil stress imposed on the slide by your proof-level ammunition. Hope the guy you sold it to spots the crack and understands it.

Don't pray for me. Don't. I told you the dirt so calm thy freaking self.

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Oh, I'm fine. I've learned that about all I can do is warn against foolish and/or reckless behavior and hope for the best. Beyond that, about all I can do is get out of the way whenever I hear: "Hold my beer and watch this!"

Nothin' but love, Deaf.

"I shot around 50,000 essentially proof loads through a forged Hi-Power"

I once got a '65 VW bug up to 100 mph going downhill. I'm smarter now.

JohnBT said:

I once got a '65 VW bug up to 100 mph going downhill. I'm smarter now.

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I busted a couple '68's a few times way back when too. lolz

Surprised no one brought up 9mm Major loads that pushes 124/125 gr bullets to ~1450 fps (of course these loads are beyond published load data and require careful powder workup - use them at your own risk) - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=131578&view=findpost&p=1482066


DCammo sells commercial 9mm major ammunition for match shooting - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142316

This ammunition will work in STI/Para/Caspian based guns and Glock based open guns as well.

SPECS:
True once fired processed/rollsized same headstamp brass.
124CMJ bullets
Small rifle primers
Loaded to 1.145 OAL

Chrono results:

5in STI based full size open gun
(10 round string) 1410-1464 FPS 176 PF

4.25 STI based shorty open gun
(10 round string) 1367-1423 FPS 172 PFD

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I operate under no assumption that bad things don't/won't happen in the world.

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Me too. And now that I'm older, I try to not (intentionally) increase the odds.

Me too. And now that I'm older, I try to not (intentionally) increase the odds.

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Roger that.

Over the nearly 50 years that I've been rolling my own ammo, I learned that the caveats pertaining to powder charges issued by the educated folks who write the loading manuals was and is very good advice. When they say not to exceed maximums, they ain't kiddin'.

Some of this came from seeing other people ignore that advice and trash some very nice rifles, pistols, and revolvers...and part of it came from my own destruction of a pair of Ruger Super Blackhawks and a half-dozen Model 29s during my Metallic Silhouette addiction. (Stretched frames and a few bulged chambers.)

Chasing that last 25 fps of velocity is counterproductive, destructive, and completely unnecessary for anything more than establishing bragging rights down at the local gun store on Saturday morning. It amazes the noobs, but among the knowledgeable people...the ones who understand the question...the velocity and energy freaks who chase that last squeek of velocity for its own sake are viewed as idiots, and whenever we happen to run into them on the firing range...we stay well out of their way. On two occasions, I've been glad that I did.

This would probably "kaboom" a glock, huh?

1911Tuner said:

.freaks who chase that last squeek of velocity for its own sake are viewed as idiots..

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Did you just backhandedly call me a freak and an idiot?

It seems that the tuner needs a tune up.

the slide developed a hairline crack.. I sold that gun for more than I paid for it retail.. with the crack.

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Amazing.
What was the sucker going to do with a gun that he knew was broken?
He did know, didn't he?


I would be very wary of a minor brand of ammunition with extravagant claims for muzzle velocity that actually exceeded said extravagant claims. What is the next step above +P+?

Jim Watson said:

Amazing.
What was the sucker going to do with a gun that he knew was broken?
He did know, didn't he?.

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If you say so.
Who knows?
Yes, he knew.

Jim Watson said:

I would be very wary of a minor brand of ammunition with extravagant claims for muzzle velocity

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dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

I am currently looking into load developing 9mm major loads for my G22 using 40-9 conversion barrel with thicker chamber/barrel and posted about 9mm major loads to indicate ~1500 fps was attainable with 115 gr bullet, but not as an endorsement of shooting such loads.

Believe me, shooting anything over +P in factory pistols is discouraged. Even for match shooters, it takes a lot of time and careful load development to produce 9mm major loads.

Did you just backhandedly call me a freak and an idiot?

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No. I was relating my own experience. I stopped speaking to you directly when I asked you if the slide crack was the same as the one shown in the illustration.

Yes, he knew.

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Did he understand the significance of that crack? I doubt it, because you don't understand it, nor do you seem to believe it.

Did you tell him that it was normal and nothing to worry about? If you did, and he keeps firing the gun...when he winds up with steel shards in his eyes and the rear half of the slide imbedded in his sinuses...you're culpable.

If you know him, you have a responsibility to go and warn him that he's holding a grenade.

dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

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Back in the day when the racegunners discovered that they could make major with the .38 Super by overloading it, one of the first things that they also discovered was they were blowing cases at the unsupported area of the barrel ramps in 1911-pattern pistols. That led to the fully ramped barrels that offered full support. They still blew cases occasionally...never being satisfied with enough...but they didn't vent the hot gases and brass shards into the magazine...which can result in sympathetic detonation of some of the rounds stored there. If can get pretty ugly in quick time. I've seen it happen.

Pushing a cartridge far beyond what it and the gun that chambers it was designed for is dangerous and foolish.

dcammo's 9mm major load is only for match shooting and the velocities are in line with other match shooters' chrono'd 9mm major loads.

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Ah, but the OP was blasting with Underwood ammunition. What are THEIR qualifications, experience, and caveats?

intercooler, I believe those velocities. I have done quite a bit of chronographing. I don't have an XD, but the XD may have barrel/chamber dimensions that, like Glocks, tend to be fast for the barrel length involved.


I have cronographed a fair amount of 9MM +P and +P+. None of the revolvers, pistols and carbines I used, ever showed signs of unusual wear or damage due to +P or +P+ use. Never had any pierced primers,or other issues with any of the +P or +P+ ammo I tested by Winchester or Federal. Just never happened to acquire any of the LE type Speer +P+ ammo to try,but would not hesitate to use it my guns.


Just a couple examples of velocities and Barrel lengths with +P+:

Federal 9BPLE: 115 +P+; 5" auto - 1468 fps, 16.25" bbl.-1587 fps.

Winchester Ranger: 115+P+; 3.25' revolver-1324 fps, 5" auto- 1437 fps, 16.25' bbl.-1528 fps.

I've been chronographing since 1977, but just when I think I can predict what a particular gun and load should do, I get surprised. For instance, I recently chronographed some 9MM Speer "Lawman" 147 grain TMJ ( non +P ) practice ammo. I figured perhaps 950-1000 fps in a 5" barrel. Wrong again, it chronographed a consistent 1134 fps. Pretty energetic for a 147 practice load I thought.

Just my .02 worth on +P+. That +P+ ammo is sold on hold harmless type contracts with what ever agency desires to purchase it. A fair amount is available on the open market. I have spent most of my adult life in LE. It has been my experience that agencies do not intentionally buy products of questionable reliability or safety. Products that may cause the agency to incur some liability due to damages or injuries to officers or citizens,etc. LE tends to be very cautious about such things. The firearms used in LE, that are be used to fire +P+, are the same as the public owns and uses, not some super strong special guns made of unobtanium, etc. Apparently there are enough law enforcement agencies that see enough advantage in +P+ ammo to purchase in sufficient quantities to cause the major manufacturers to continue to produce it. So use it or don't, but I don't worry about using any American manufacturer's +P or +P+ ammo in any quality, properly maintained gun... ymmv

That was a reason a lot of guides used to, and still do frequently, prefer lower pressure rounds. Lot less likely to stick and cause a malfunction feeding.

Maybe the pistol can take it fine for thousands of rounds, but maybe the case will be the 1 in 1,000 that ruptures or expands too much and you wind up with a single shot when you really need the follow up.

It just doesn't make sense to push ones luck with pressure in a handgun in front of your face. They make bigger guns for when one needs more power.

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This.

The trend of attempting to turn the 9mmP into a .357 Magnum traces back to Marshal and Sanow's little book that's been shown to be flawed at its core. The 9mm isn't a .357 Magnum and it never will be. It doesn't have the case capacity to safely do it. That it can be pushed to those levels doesn't change that reality. The pistols are proofed for 9mm levels...not .357 Magnum.

If .357 performance is desired in an autopistol, there are much better choices. The .357 Sig and the 9X23 are two examples.

Finally...in case it hasn't been clear...THR is liable for any information...bad or good...that is allowed to stand. If illegal, dangerous, or irresponsible advice is given without rebuttal, and somebody else follows it and is hurt because of it...the board can be sued into oblivion. We have to issue the warning and discourage such things. To do less is to be derelict in our duties to the forum owners and to the community.

In truth, I probably should have deleted the "50,000 rounds of proof level" post with all due haste, because sooner or later some poor inexperienced handloader will stumble onto it and load up hot...possible blinding or disfiguring himself as a result. At least the rebuttal is in place, so he will have no one to blame but himself and the man who told him that it'd be okay.

Certain Deaf...I sincerely hope that the guy who bought your pistol discovers what that crack means before he hurts himself.

I've been reloading for years. Mostly 9MM, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, and .38 Spl. Most of my loads have been mid-range in velocity. I like it that way. Many have been lighter loads to see how much accuracy I can squeeze out of my different pistols. The accuracy is the fun part for me, not the power, recoil or louder bang.

I carry factory rounds, so it is not a "defense" issue. I also think pushing the limits, and stuffing more powder in a round that is recommended is irresponsible, especially for the people next to you at the range who have no ideas.

Poor DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo. Making those dirty little Widow makers.

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First...Commercial ammunition manufacturers have access to pressure testing equipment that takes the guesswork out of it. Handloaders don't. They also have access to non canister-grade powders that can be blended and tailored to produce the desired results.
Handloaders don't.

That makes exceeding the listed data a crapshoot, because the handloader doesn't know what he's dealing with.

He goes by unreliable indications like primer appearance and sticking cases which can only suggest that he's approaching safe and sane limits. Sometimes, a half-grain of powder or less can make a difference in whether the gun stays together or comes unwrapped. These indications are unreliable because there are too many variables in the components...even within the same lots of powders, primers, and bullets.

As the man said: "I only know what I can measure. All else is guesswork."

Again, I speak from experience and what I've seen happen. When you're touching off what is essentially a controlled explosion 18 inches from the end of your nose, it's wise and prudent to err on the side of caution. A man who is well-educated in the matters of internal ballistics once told me that if people really understood what sort of destructive forces that they were unleashing, most of'em would never pull another trigger on anything higher than .22 rimfire.

Old loading manuals were known for some pretty fanciful data because back in the day, all they had was the copper crusher method for measuring pressure. When more modern methods were developed, they were shocked to discover the truth...and the data has been altered. Not because they're liability conscious...but because they discovered that peak pressure only tells part of the story, and not the most important part at that.

Finally, those firms that you mentioned don't market proof-level ammunition...and that's essentially what this evolving flame war is about...not SAAMI standard +P or +P+ ammunition. Proof-level is intended to be used once...once...to prove the gun...not every time that the trigger is pulled.

God forbid a new reloader see this and think "bet I can do that."

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Which is exactly why I got involved with the thread.