The concept of 380 vs more powerful rounds

kokapelli said:

I have a PM9 but usually carry my P238 because I can shoot it better and it carries much better in my pocket.

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A gun you can shoot and hit with better, as well as have with you, certainly has much going for it, but don't be under any illusions that you didn't trade off any cartridge power. In order to attain the other qualities, you sacrificed some.

weblance: Where did I say 9mm subcompacts are the same size as .380 pocket pistols? I didn't, and they aren't.

lol .380, I hope you never have to shoot someone with that crappy caliber...god forbid if the bad guy takes cover behind a metal trash can or something.


There is no reason you can't carry a bigger caliber.

I like .40 the best in a full size, but 9mm will do in smaller pistols.

The whole reason to carry in the first place is to stop the attacker.

I've said it before, but the .380 is what I carry when I "can't carry a gun". I mean that not as a disparaging dig at the caliber. I sure as hell would not want to be shot with one. If I were a criminal looking for a soft target and an LCP was shakingly thrust into my face as victim started to white-knuckle the trigger...I'd be out of there in a hurry.

However, I only carry the LCP when I absolutely HAVE to. In the winter I carry a large .45 or big bore revolver because I can comfortably dress around it. On warmer days or when concealment is a real issue but I can still get away with a larger gun, I MUCH prefer my Glock 26. I feel WAY better carrying 10+1 rounds of jhp of 9mm over 6+1 of .380.

That said, there are days when I can't carry the Glock. In the summer, my dress attire is a company shirt tucked into jeans. I'm a contractor, and I can't wear a sloppily untucked shirt or jeans 2 sizes too big to hide a pistol. The LCP goes into a back pocket holster, and I go about my day lightly armed. Same thing when I go to my mom and stepdad's. They aren't gun folks at all. I'm not trying to change their minds. I respectfully carry my LCP in my back pocket.

There is a place for a smaller gun. It's not an IDEAL situation to get caught only having a slim .380 on your person if something nasty goes down, but then again it's not an ideal situation to have to defend yourself using deadly force at all. As has been said many, many times, "beats a sharp stick".

There will always be a trade-off, so you need to make your decision. You can choose greater convenience and accept the possibility of reduced effectiveness. Or you can learn to live with greater inconvenience in exchange for a probability of somewhat greater effectiveness.

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If we just accept that what would we argue about. lol

3twelves said:

lol .380, I hope you never have to shoot someone with that crappy caliber...god forbid if the bad guy takes cover behind a metal trash can or something.

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On the contrary, God help the assailant who takes 13 rounds from my .380. If he's behind a trashcan, the attack is over, right?

Well, I for one have never said the .380 is ineffective. Obviously, if you shoot somebody with it, they aren't going to feel better. But you can't tell me it is as effective as a 9mm. Certainly it is more effective than the 9mm left at home.

The fact is I just don't need to carry a large heavy recoiling pistol for the purpose of self defense.

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The fact is that nobody knows what they need until they need it. When I actually think I may need to use a gun, I grab a rifle. On a pre-need basis, people have to theorize as to their expected encounter and prepare accordingly. Statistically, the chances of a person who is not in a high risk occupation needing any firearm is so slim that the overwhelming majority of people don't bother to carry a gun at all. An example of that would be the people sitting in the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado for the Batman movie.

The Sig P238/P938 line has such excellent sights that both are easy 25 yard guns. The P238 does not, however, fire a round that allows it to achieve its full potential as a defensive system. The size and weight difference is so slight that the choice for me to go with the 9mm was a no brainer. I also have fired a Kel Tec .380 and thought the recoil was a lot for such a puny round. I gave it to my father who falls into the "any gun is a death ray" and the "I won't carry a gun that weighs more than a few ounces" categories. It may save him if the bad guy runs away at the sight of the gun, but his odds aren't good otherwise.

beatledog7 said:

On the contrary, God help the assailant who takes 13 rounds from my .380. If he's behind a trashcan, the attack is over, right?

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Im sure most saw this video of a old man shooting a robber 3 times with a .380 and later walked himself to the hospital. If the kids were more determined he could of been killed because he didn't stop the attackers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S9UxU6G_P8


As for recoil, the little .380 guns (lcp) recoil just as much as a 9mm.

I won't tell people to NEVER carry a .380, but if they do, I will tell them to use modern ammo from the premium manufacturers that push it into 9mm power rangs.

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I'm curious as to what .380 ammo equals the power of a 9mm cartridge. I'm pretty sure there are none (though I've been wrong before).

he other reason is that people mention the size...well, there are very few .380s that have a comfortable size grip. Most are for deep concealment. Even less of these .380s are available to the public (why the Glock .380 is illegal here really baffles me). So even though the .380 has the least energy of any of my handguns, it's the only one that hurts my hand when I shoot it.

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If your experience with shooting .380acp is a small pocket pistol I could see why it soured you(they're not for everyone) but my BDA and sig P-232 are some of the most comfortable accurate guns I've owned. Yeah I can get some plastic crap 9mm in the same weight and higher cap but my guns are not only for CC.

I never did fit into the taci-cool crowd because I happen to like the all steel .45 and all metal .380

Fishbed77 said:

I'm curious as to what .380 ammo equals the power of a 9mm cartridge. I'm pretty sure there are none (though I've been wrong before).

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There are none, people with lesser calibers like to tell story's about magic bullets. Same goes for the 9mm crowd.

3twelves,

If he's behind a trashcan, the attack is over, right?

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You quoted this but didn't address it. If the attacker has gone for cover/concealment, the attack has ended; he has surrendered his offensive because he prefers not leaking over getting closer to me. So, to your earlier point:

The whole reason to carry in the first place is to stop the attacker.

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I agree, and I have accomplished that. From behind a trash can the attacker is no longer a threat to me. Given that, I'm not shooting at him; therefore, the trashcan's ability to stop or not stop my bullets is irrelevant, as is the chambering of my CCW.

The suggestions to carry modern ammunition from premium manufacturers seems to be a good one. I didn't know it was restricted to the .380.

It's also a good idea not to compromise in a pistol caliber that has poor energy, momentum, and velocity, because pistol rounds suck. It is a good thing that has been mentioned a few times. Thankfully everyone has abandoned the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP with their poor velocities and adopted magnum rimmed calibers, 10mm, .460 Rowland, 45 Super, 9x25 Dillon, .50 AEetc. because pistol rounds do suck and it is a better tradeoff to deal with a larger platform and higher recoil for potentially greater effectiveness.

Oops, I think I placed the arbitrary cutoff at the wrong spot.

Shooter hiding behind said trash can shooting at you is not a threat to you? When shooting starts people tend to take cover behind stuff. A .380 wont even go through a car door reliably....

Wow!!!! Till I found the internet gun boards. I didn't know a 38spl, 380, 32, wasn't any good for self defense . I guess all the people in this country with one of those calibers for a carry or home defense pistol. Should be told to run to next gun buy back and turn them in as they will never work for Self Defense.Better to have a free turkey that a 38spl 380 or 32. Pity the poor person who just used a 25 auto to defend thenselves. They need to be lock up as mentally incompetent. To have even considered using one of those .

Here is another study of actual shootings: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 Below is the graph that I found the most important. It shows the percentage of shootings where someone was not stopped after being shot. The important jump is in going from 32 to 380.

http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

Try here for .380 ammo that equals 9mm. They have a listing of a lot of the .380 on the market.

I'd also like to mention that Marshall is a cream-puff compared to Fackler, who has to be the rudest, and most arrogant and condescending man that I've ever spoken to.

Who really cares what anyone elses' opinion is? It's just that, OPINION. There is no reason to believe that it holds any more truth than anyone elses opinion.

So, one feels as though a 9mm is the minimum caliber that they will carry. Fine. Are your circumstances the same as everyone else? Of course they aren't. So, WHY should anyone push their opinions as truth?

If power, penetration, capacity, and size of hole is all important, we should be CCWing a Browning M2.

No matter what you carry, or how vociferously you defend your choice, no caliber is 100% effective.

For those who somehow refuse to actually read Marshall & Sanow's books, the percentages were from stops with ONE shot, and in the TORSO. No head shots, no CNS stops. Unless one is dumb enough to only fire once, they don't necessarily apply.

Let's actually try to have a discussion without misquoting facts, and drawing ineffective opinions from those so misquoted facts.

Want to carry a .22 long rifle pistol? Or a .500 S&W derringer? It will ALWAYS beat a good argument with the Bad Guy. Especially when his opinion is that the gun in his hand beats your irrefutable statements.

The Lone Haranguer said:

weblance: Where did I say 9mm subcompacts are the same size as .380 pocket pistols? I didn't, and they aren't.

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The Lone Haranguer said:

IMO, the .380's raison d'etre is that you can make the gun smaller for specialized deep concealment, BUG, etc., roles. In the same size gun - and within reason - why handicap yourself with a .380 when you can have 9mm Luger power? Why not take every advantage you can get? In guns Kahr PM9-sized and larger, 9mm Luger does not have excessive recoil.

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Your words... right?

Wow!!!! Till I found the internet gun boards. I didn't know a 38spl, 380, 32, wasn't any good for self defense . I guess all the people in this country with one of those calibers for a carry or home defense pistol. Should be told to run to next gun buy back and turn them in as they will never work for Self Defense.Better to have a free turkey that a 38spl 380 or 32. Pity the poor person who just used a 25 auto to defend thenselves. They need to be lock up as mentally incompetent. To have even considered using one of those .

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I think a .32 CAN work, but I think that barring FMJ rounds you're going to run the risk of underpenetration (i.e. doesn't reach vitals), and with FMJ rounds you have a significantly smaller wound profile than with an expanded 9. So if you're wanting to rely on a physiological stop instead of psychological, there are definitely reasons why the 9 is better than the .32.

I should also point out that people didn't start thinking of handgun calibers as "weak" because of internet forums. The reason the .45 ACP was popular over a hundred years ago is because the previous cartridge wasn't considered to be effective enough. The FBI tests (which resulted in the .40 S&W being created and the advancement in 9mm ammunition today) were based on failure to stop in the field, not because an internet commando said "you use 9mm lolz". So don't blame this on the internet or forums.

MICHAEL T said:

Wow!!!! Till I found the internet gun boards. I didn't know a 38spl, 380, 32, wasn't any good for self defense . I guess all the people in this country with one of those calibers for a carry or home defense pistol. Should be told to run to next gun buy back and turn them in as they will never work for Self Defense.Better to have a free turkey that a 38spl 380 or 32. Pity the poor person who just used a 25 auto to defend thenselves. They need to be lock up as mentally incompetent. To have even considered using one of those .

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Yah, and I could also go bear hunting with a .22lr but I won't because I want to come home in one piece.

Did I mention .380 ammo costs as much sometimes more than 9mm?

I like how when the .380 failed to expand, it penetrated just as deep as the 9mm that did expand. And on every other one, the 9mm expanded just as much, if not more.

very good comparison considering it's the same brand and line of ammo.

Skribs said:

I like how when the .380 failed to expand, it penetrated just as deep as the 9mm that did expand. And on every other one, the 9mm expanded just as much, if not more.

very good comparison considering it's the same brand and line of ammo.

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That's not even getting into the +p, +p+ offerings to make it fair.