Liberty Guns safes, did I blow it?

Even though you can get better deals on Chinese made products, I refuse to buy Chinese products if I can get the equivalent product that is made in the US. Some items like electronics you just can't avoid buying Chinese made products but with safes you do have a choice. If I had tons of money I would have bought the US made AMSEC RF6528 TL30 gun safe.

That drop test was cool, but they needed a couple of stuffed Wile E. Coyote dolls to drop them on.....maybe paint ACME on the Chinese safe too.

The whole debate about gun safes makes my head hurt, so many choices and info. My whole gun collection isn't worth what some of these safes cost. Delivery and setup are a huge part of any purchase I may make, I can't do it myself and have nobody to help. So a big sale at a local store does me no good, I'd still have to hire some strangers to deliver it, and that's not a good idea.

If I'm ever able to buy one, I plan on a Liberty Franklin 50, for the size and height. My back won't go for a short safe, I need a tall one. And I know of a guy that's the highest volume Liberty dealer in Colorado with the best selection and prices in the state, who will deliver it to my house and into my garage for free. Bolting it down is just a little extra.

Mine would have to go in the garage, no place in the house or basement, and I doubt the stairs would hold up. And I have plans to build a wooden cabinet around the safe, so it just looks like a big storage cabinet to keep stuff in.

The drop test of sheet metal boxes doesn't really mean anything for burglary protection. The UL fire test does a 30' drop to simulate falling through residential flooring, but its designed for that. Why not drop a safe from 200' or 1000'?

There is a safe company that promotes Liberty by testing it against dynamite and detcord which fail to open the safe. Does that make it equal to a TXTL-60x6 safe?

Marketing.

I don't think any of the safes that we have discussed in this forum besides the AMSEC has a UL fire rating and maybe the Graffunder(website doesn't specify). From my understanding Sturdy doesn't, Summit doesn't, Superior doesn't, Liberty doesn't and Winchester doesn't. They all use different hokey third party certifying companies that you have never heard of. Which one is better, I am assuming they are all pretty much same. They are paid by the safe companies to provide the them with a fire rating that they can add to sales literature.

My take on fire protection on gun safes is it is better to have it because if there is a fire in the house there is always a chance the fire will be put out before it engulfs the room the safe is in and although temperatures will be damn high throughout the house the insulation,even the sheetrock insulation that most gun safes contain will help in a scenario that I described.
But even though theft protection was my main focus of my gun safe,fire was also a big consideration as well thus I chose the Amsec because I feel it provides the best protection in one package for my two mentioned concerns.

Cesiumsponge,

I just watched the Griffin safe video and I thought it was very informative. A text box popped up on the screen stating that his safe is the only gun safe approved by the DEA. That is kind of vague, does he mean that it is approved by the Agency for it's agents to store their government issued weapons or does the DEA actually approve it for the storage of narcotics? I am guessing that it is the first one not the last.

mikechandler,

I was in your boat for the last few weeks and I decided against the AMSEC BF6030 because of the spot welding on the bottom of the safe as opposed to the continuous welding on the entire body of the Summit. I know that shouldn't be an issue because the safe should be bolted to the floor but here in Tucson pretty much every newer home has a post tension slab so you cannot drill into it without voiding your structural warranty. My logic was I would rather have a stronger made safe and I can live with the drywall fire-protection since the fire department is 5-10 minutes away and my monitored alarm system will trigger the response as soon as smoke is detected. If you really have some sensitive documents that cannot be lost to fire/heat I would use a safe deposit box. The firearms, safe, and the rest of the goodies will be covered by your insurance if you have proof and the added coverage for firearms.

I haven't received my Summit Denali yet, they have about a 12 week wait. I bought the safe through Jesse at Safe City in Mesa, AZ (he sells AMSEC, Summit, Ft. Knox, and Superior) he gave me a great price which included shipping and setting up in my house. I can personally recommend him. He has a used Summit Denali SD30 with black gloss paint for $2199 on his site:

http://www.azsafecityinc.com/USED-SAFES.html

I think the DEA narcotics lockers must be B-rate at minimum so the Griffin product doesn't qualify. There is another Griffin video which shows the DEA letters. Maybe its for weapon storage?

In any case, NO gun safe has a fire rating from the UL. Not even the Amsec, Brown, or Graffunder. Neither do any commercial burglary safes. I believe its because all safes have to be 100% identical to get a fire rating and burglary safes are randomized to some degree. I talked to Ralph Graffunder a while back and he expressed differently, but maybe things were different then and he hasn't been with the company in a while so perhaps UL protocols were different when they were considering the idea. For a short while, there was one safe I'm aware of that carried both a UL fire and UL burglary rating. It's an expensive process so unless you sell ungodly volumes or very expensive safes, its a burdensome expense. a1abdj could provide actual facts when he comes along.

It's a funny thing but I have in front of me a year 2000 Amsec catalogue and they say that their Sierra LX 60x30 passed UL's 30 minute 350 degree fire test.
The picture of the UL sticker says "Listed R18697 Fire Resistant Gun Safe".
I will let a1abdj comment on that deal because he might be able to shed more light on this issue.
This particular safe has a .25" body and it *might* represent one of Amsecs earlier pre BF model designs with superior cast cement fills for fire protection.

Mike that Summit is a pretty nice gun safe and pretty solid too.

Does the manufacturer have a sales contact for us west coasters? The more choices people are aware of, the better. Saves a ton on shipping too.

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The manufacturer decided that they didn't want to be in the sales business (they weren't very good at it), and shut down their retail operations. All of the remaining inventory went to Mike.

I think the DEA narcotics lockers must be B-rate at minimum so the Griffin product doesn't qualify. There is another Griffin video which shows the DEA letters. Maybe its for weapon storage?

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The fire and burglary gun safe would qualify as a B rate, although I have never clarified anything with Mike regarding the DEA information. When any of my customers want a narc locker, I sell them one of those instead of a gun safe.

You would actually be surprised what the DEA inspectors sign off on. The written rules, and what they find acceptable when they are there to sign off on things are two totally different things. When I get calls asking for these types of safes, I usually suggest that the caller contact the person handing their inspection and ask them what they'll accept.

NO gun safe has a fire rating from the UL.

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That is currently correct to the best of my knowledge, but it hasn't always been that way:

I have in front of me a year 2000 Amsec catalogue and they say that their Sierra LX 60x30 passed UL's 30 minute 350 degree fire test.

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Browning (Prosteel) also used to have an imported fire safe outfitted as a gun safe. I believe it had a 1 hour UL rating. It believe it was offered in the 90's.

Neither do any commercial burglary safes. I believe its because all safes have to be 100% identical to get a fire rating and burglary safes are randomized to some degree

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There are a few that have both, but they are not very common. The reason you stated is why that is. In this case, just because it does not have a rating does not mean that it would not pass the test.

that Summit is a pretty nice gun safe and pretty solid too

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I'm still waiting to see one in person. I had inquired about selling them at one point, but never got a response.

Years ago, I was looking at a Meilink Gibraltar line which had both the UL TL-30 and (one or two) hour UL fire rating. I took another look last year and (besides a big price bump due to steel prices) it dropped the UL fire rating and replaced it with another third party lab. Probably same exact safe as before, but they save a few bucks in not having the UL fire tag. I'm also guessing commercial customers don't need a fire rating if the value of the contents are insured. Paper records would be another matter. Minimum expenses possible, no need to spend where its not needed.

I'd trust a burglary safe with an unrated concrete lcore over a gun safe with as many sheets of drywall as they want to stuff inside. I'm still unsure who started that fad.

I am really confused here guys - I was pretty sure that RSC fell between B rate and C rate chests. Is that not true? B rated chests are not much metal at all.. I have a gardall one with a 1/8" plate door, it's B burglary rated, and 1 hour 350 degree fire rated, I don't have a lot of confidence in it. I also have an unlabeled Amsec, either a BLC or DDE, not completely sure - but it's massive, and very confidence inspiring. I thought RSC fell between those two.

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It can get quite confusing for people who don't deal with safes on a regular basis. This also includes other professionals like locksmiths.

The RSC "Residential Security Container" rating, is an actual UL rating. I don't believe it means a lot, but it does undergo a test. The safe has to last 5 minutes against prying devices (not to exceed 18") and hammers (not to exceed 18" or 5 pounds). Clock starts, safe is attacked for 5 minutes, if it's still closed in 5 minutes it passes.

To compare that to another UL rating that does mean something, let's look at a TL-15. This is a 15 minute rating against all hand tools, power tools, and pressure applying devices. There are no restrictions on tool sizes or weights. Those attacking the safe are professionals, with advance knowledge of the safe's design. The clock only runs while a tool is in contact with the safe. Let's say the clock starts, they drill on it for a minute, and the bit breaks. The clock is stopped, the bit is changed, and the clock starts when they continue to drill. The safe will fail if opened within 15 minutes of running clock time, or a 6 square inch hole can be placed through the door.

Here's what confuses people:

B rate, C rate, E rate, and F rate are really not ratings at all. There is no test performed on these safes. These designations are definitions issued by the ISO, and has to do with construction methods. These in turn are used to determine the theft risk factor.

Without getting too in depth, a B rate safe will have 1/4" worth of steel in the body, and 1/2" worth in the door. A C rate would have 1/2" worth in the body, and 1" in the door. An E rate is very similar to a TL-15 in construction, using a 1" body, and 1.5" door. A F rate would have the same 1" body, but a 1.5" laminate door.

Composite safes have thrown a bit of a monkey wrench into these definitions, but there are still ways to determine an equivalent level of protection.

You want to see a true UL tested TL-30 safe go to you tube and type in Meilink Gibralter.
A TL30 safe would be quite hard to enter without the use of very powerful tools such as the air powered tools used in that video.

Thanks for the info - this means a TL15 or TL30 is much better than it sounds on the surface, as it doesn't include the time spent figuring out what to try next to get into the safe. I would expect that means a normal class thief would spend hours (or more likely just try to steal the safe), and only a true pro would get in - and possibly only if he knew that particular safe. All that being said, I think the Denali Summit will work for my purposes - I can't afford any safe that has a UL rating beginning with a TL!

Since every model safe has it's cons and pros, how wise is it to remove all identifying silk screens/logos/model information from the box? The locksmith that I purchased my Amsec BLC2018 from did exactly that - it's just a gray metal box with a lock and handle!

Why make it easy for them?

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Very informative thread. Wow, Mike I think the best thing that could have happened is that safe salesmen telling you to take your deposit back. I've seen a Summit Denali before at a dealers and they are one solid gun safe. Congrats, sounds like you got a nice one.

Guys, I've enjoyed reading all this more than the morning paper. There is so much to learn and lots to think about when buying a security safe. As for fire, if the room provides, I think you cant go wrong building a double layer .750" sheet rock enclosure. This is for the ones who want to hide theirs.
So now.. Which model is best for protection when a crack head neighborhood punk has a $50 .22 at my wifes [or home alone child] head and wants her [or me] to open the $4000 safe they saw delivered thinking we had so much $$$ ?
It really is some thing to think about when a family member is home alone. I live in the country. They raid meth labs all over.

Mike, as another poster [ 1st page I think] said, if you dont tell, and no one knows what you have I think your good to go.
A local farmer was out feeding his cows and when he returned home, his front porch,window,door frame was tore up from the bolted down safe that was chained and pulled out of his home with a 4X4 pick up [ford I think] because some one knew where and what he had,and what he owned. A chevy would of sunk in the mud the sherifs said.

Just me .02 cents worth.

Mike

Lol on that part. But yes that does happen. They will come out with a roll back wrecker and winch your bolted down safe out of the concrete floor and right onto the back of the truck and drive off before an officer is even dispatched. That's when its in the garage.
If in an interior room, and they have snorted enough dope, they will drag a chain through ur house and try to rip it out through walls ect. Plum near tear the house down to get your 2000 dollar safe out.

Dont dither so long worrying about what the determined and well equipped thief can do that you don't get something to keep out the average crackhead.

I'm just curious here. Did the OP actually get his check back or did the dealer just threaten to give it back? He might have wised up the next day!