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Liberty Guns safes, did I blow it?

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by mikechandler, Dec 21, 2012.

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  1. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Mike this guy is wrong.
    All Amsec BF models have a half inch plate steel door that is backed up by another one inch steel encased layer of Dry-Lite fire insulation.
    The only BF model that has a 3/8" thick door is the massive 72x50 model.
    The Presidential door has a 7 gauge skin aka 3/16th then has several layers of of sheetrock and then a two piece backing plate of 1/4 inch steel.
    It is not as rigid as the BF model in 1/2" steel.
    This is exactly why Liberty puts so many bolts around the door.
    The BF has an 11 gauge outer wall then has two inches of seamless poured in Dry-Lite insulation and then another inner steel wall of 1/16th steel for a total of 3/16th,which equals the Presidential.
    And it has much better fire protection than the Liberty.
    Just look at those uninsulated bare spots behind the Liberty's internal hinges.
    The Liberty is a good gun safe but the Amsec BF is better and costs less.
     
  2. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Your NEXT move is to call Sturdy and talk to Terry. He knows his stuff.
     
  3. plunge

    plunge Member

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    I don't think very many of us have to worry about "professionals" coming to our house and breaking into our safes.
     
  4. CB900F

    CB900F Member

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    Mike;

    It's highly probable that the safe the locksmith you spoke with mentioned was a Graffunder. I'm a Graffunder dealer, one of the more active ones in the country I do believe. If you have any questions about Graffunder please contact me with them, I'd be glad to address them for you.

    Rant on :cuss:. Gotta tell you that internal hinges are a pet peeve of mine. If the container being discussed is properly built, they are about as necessary as lips on a chicken. I don't know of a true safe, as opposed to an RSC, that uses them. I do know that our shop will not touch any door misalignment problems that involve internal hinges. It's not that we don't know how to correct them , but that the labor charges get to be a significant fraction of the value of the unit. So ask yourself, if the body is made out of sheet metal (ipso-facto an RSC) can it maintain the structural rigidity necessary to never distort to the point the door starts to give problems? If you move and want to take the RSC with you, the odds of body flex go way up. IMHO you're a lot better off with an RSC, or better yet a true safe, that uses external hinges. Rant off :fire: :banghead:.

    :D 900F
     
  5. mikechandler

    mikechandler Member

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    Yeah, after all I've seen - I want a Gaffunder, and can maybe afford a Sturdy. So I talk to my wife about this, and she asks to see info on the sturdy safe - and the website has some buxom babe draped all over the safes. All credibility out the window with my wife. Go figure. For such a serious product I wish that kind of advertising wasn't used - it's not even necessary.:fire:

    Tomorrow's a new day - I am going to call my lock & safe dealer and tell them that what they are offering isn't going to work for me and my needs - see if I can get out of the deal. I am sorry I gave him 50% down on it, and I hope I am not out the money. I feel it was misrepresented, but either way I have too many concerns now. I've tried to feel okay about it, but I can't. I honestly believed it would be higher security than it is.

    I don't really want a Amsec BF either - it may be a few marks better, but it's still just a weak sheet metal box, 1/2" door and poured mixture in consideration.

    If I can get a sturdy I will, otherwise, I'll be shopping for a used TL30 or better SAFE (not RSC). I can make my own fire insulation with fire rated sheetrock if I have to. If I did that with the sturdy it'd be the same cost to curbside as the franklin.

    I had dreams last night of using my tin snips on some air-ducts, and my wife nagging me about my lousy RSC purchase. Despite thinking about the real security concerns, it's just not a purchase I can live with.

    Thanks for all the advice, I just wish I'd checked here before giving the deposit.

    Merry Xmas!

    :banghead:
     
  6. RainDodger

    RainDodger Member

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    Do not worry - what you did is far better than using a closet. Any safe is just going to slow someone down.... take a look on youtube and you'll see people getting into safes you would think are impregnable. I think most of us are concerned with keeping marauding crackheads or kids away from our guns. For those concerned with more than that, they likely spend a lot more money than most of us do.
     
  7. mikechandler

    mikechandler Member

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    Well, it's all over now. There was no getting my deposit back, but he did a swap for me this morning, to a Winchester Legacy 53 - 2.5 hour fire rating, 10ga steel body, twenty 2" bolts, and a 1/4" hard plate in the door, pry resistant tabs on the corners. I know that 10ga steel can be pierced with the pike of a fire axe, but it would be LOUD as all heck doing that, and a really slow process. Plus it's going insude a closet anyway, backed up against my living room's fireplace, where they won't have much swing or pry room. I think it's enough steel content for me to get some sleep again. I'll have a motion detector and door sensor installed on the closet, and upgrade the door and lock. The new safe is 1650 lbs so it won't be moved easily, and will be bolted down anyway. My drills, bits, and crowbars (what little stuff I have of that type) will be kept inside the safe.

    I'm done worrying about this - and thank you everybody for your input; for future posterity I am glad we laid out the real differences in all these safes, and my advice to anybody else coming down this path - BUY A STURDY SAFE, I only wish that I'd known all of this before putting down a load of cash.
     
  8. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

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    ^^^Why so high and mighty on the Sturdy? I am not bashing, I am just genuinely curious as I am in the market myself. I really like the security standard or build quality of the Sturdy, but dislike the no frills aspect of it. I mean I am not buying it for looks LOL but for it to look better than just a big metal box would add something for the wife. I also like the inside door panel offered on some others such as the Liberty's. I guess my point here is that even though Sturdy seems to be the ticket they are 100% no frills.
     
  9. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Griffin safe is another alternative. The boltwork design is fantastic, as the safe was designed by a SAVTA member. The door is 1/4" plate plus two more 1/8" steel layers with a total of 1.5" of concrete. The body is an inner and outer 10ga shell with a concrete aggregate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVUDCicerA

    In any case, a 2" diameter gun safe bolt is for looks. It's usually very short and bolted to a flimsy piece of angle iron. It's this angled bar that bends in a pry attack. Real commercial safes can get away with a few 1-1.5" bolts because they're recessed into a solid steel plate frame or pocket.

    It's all marketing. If you look at the video with the Griffin line, you'd see the carrier bar attaches on top of full-length bolts. You'd have to bend the actual door back as the bolts aren't going to give. With the various failed RSC photos floating around, the bolts and frame gave in a pry attack, never the door itself, even if the doors are relatively thin in construction.
     
  10. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Wow,I dont know what to think of this.
    First the OP picks a Liberty Franklin gun safe that's pretty good but certainly not the best.
    Takes all kinds of bogus info as the gospel from a gun safe sales guy.
    Bashes the Amsec BF.
    Screams aloud that the Sturdy is the way to go...
    And then buys a Chinese made spot welded Winchester.
    You would have been better off with the original Liberty than the Winchester.
     
  11. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Three-minute attack with shown hammer on spot welded sheet metal
    8262226265_3b3c2c27e1_o.jpg
    8262226639_cb10ba5f23_b.jpg
    8263294608_7669757f8e_o.jpg
     
  12. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Welcome to my every day world. :D
     
  13. mikechandler

    mikechandler Member

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    I give up. I guess that shows why NOT to ask on a gun forum. It's a bit like this:

    Hey look, I bought a Glock 19mm!
    Wow, welcome to the cheap plastic pistol world, sell out!

    Okay I traded the glock for a S&W 686, whatdya think?
    Nice gun... too bad it doesn't have a magazine.

    Okay, I got rid of the 686 and got a Beretta 92fs!
    Can you even get your hand around that humongous grip? Did you get one of the ones that can crack their frame? You should have got a 1911.

    Okay guys, How did I do? I just bought a Springfield Champion 1911!
    Well, now you are carrying a made in brazil gun, it's okay... but you should have ante'd up for a Springer TRP or better yet a Dan Wesson Valor!

    Hey all, after a great struggle, I put together the money, and traded in my Springfield for a Dan Wesson Valor!
    Nice 1911 - almost as reliable as a Glock, at three times the weight. Have you checked out Glock yet? Really great guns for the money...

    Or something along those lines.

    ---- I give up. I should just sell my Ar15s and stop worrying about a bigger safe, my handguns are fine in my burglary C rated safe with 1" plate door and sides.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  14. cbpagent72

    cbpagent72 Member

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    I don't know why Study gets so much press. Look at the Summit Denali safe line. All of the new safes have 7 gauge steel bodies and a thick door, I believe it is a 1/2" and they are made in Provo, UT. You can get all that and a gloss paintjob for about $2800.

    http://www.summitsafes.com/denali.html

    If that doesn't have enough protection they also sell the Summit Everest which is a class B safe. 1/4" steel body and 3/4" steel plate door.

    http://www.summitsafes.com/everest_ex.html

    I just can't get over how Sturdy safes just look like an old gym locker with that paint job. I am also a bit leery of how well the Sturdy safes perform when it comes to fire. They have a million videos showing how hard their safe is to break into but not one video showing how well their safes perform in a fire test doesn't anyone in here wonder why? They obviously like to make videos so do a controlled test in a 1200 degree industrial oven with temperature modules inside the safe.

    Many safe companies show photos/videos of claimed fire damage without giving any specifics or third party reports. There are too many variables to consider, size or house, construction materials of house, placement of safe in the house, temperature of fire and the length of time that temperature was maintained.

    This is for the OP, I found a cool video showing a 100' drop test comparison between a US made Liberty Franklin and a Chinese made Winchester (you can see the Winchester name that they painted over) safe.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT-Jr4ZNALw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


    Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
  15. mikechandler

    mikechandler Member

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    Wow the summit specs are incredibly good:
    •1/2" Solid Double Step Door
    • 3/16" Body
    • 1 1/2" Bolts
    • Up to 4 Layers of Fire Protection
    • 4-way Bolts
    • 5-pt Handle, Black Chrome Trim Standard
    • Gloss & Textured Colors Available
    • Weighs 1700 lbs.
    • 50"x72"x28", 30.5" with handle
    • Elegant External Hinge
    • Smoothest Gear Drive in the industry
    • 1500 Degree/2 Hour Fire Rating
    • LED Lighting system standard
    • Standard Door Accessory Panel

    Are they continuous welded? I never heard of these - according to the website they are made in Utah.

    So, everybody - what's the weakest point on the summit?
     
  16. cbpagent72

    cbpagent72 Member

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    I called the company and spoke to the owner James and he told me that they are US made and the welding is continuous, they do not spot weld. He was a real straight shooter he told me the pros and cons of his safes and left the decision to me. He didn't hard sell me at all, I almost bought a BF6030 and ended up buying a Denali in cherry gloss. James stated that the Summit safe line is made by Champion in Provo, UT to the specs that Summit provides. They use a solid 1/2" of steel around the door frame so the bolts are not only being locked into a 7 gauge body.

    From my understanding Champion also makes Superior Safes at the Provo facility.

    http://superiorgunsafes.com/

    Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
  17. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    I want a pretty safe. Blec.

    Not me. I want a safe that will do it's job. I don't care if it looks like puke.

    For me, I bought a Sturdy safe with thick steel (I forget the dimensions, but it's all on their website). It's fire resistant, professional grade lock, and very thick steel. I seem to recall that both of them were about $1500 apiece a few years ago. Maybe the price of steel went up since then. Don't know and don't care enough to look. I just know that I did exhaustive searches and they were the best, using the best techniques, and made in America. Not Chinese imports. I also think I saved a few hundred on my second one getting a factory "second" that had a very minor blemish on the backside where the steel was not perfect (totally cosmetic).

    As far as the girl on the Sturdy website, that's the owners daughter who is in the modeling business, but is also in the sales department and very knowledgable about safes, as I understand it. She posts here from time to time. Her name is Alyssa.

    I'm not the only satisfied Sturdy Safe owners on the web:
    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=46&t=346128

    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-572845.html

    http://ingunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/87877-sturdy_safe_arrived.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpnU8ZKRIEs

    Total burn down of a house with the Sturdy Safe and contects surviving, video of the burn down and pictures from the surviving safe contents (money, guns, etc).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CboBAf597uU
    http://www.sturdysafe.com/fireliner.htm

    Break in resistance of Sturdy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oOqDHedivQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9FslzOGzqw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwbgNHkJ8Y

    If I were in the market for another safe, my STARTING POINT would be Sturdy, and a company would have to beat their product/value (by a long shot) to earn my business.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
  18. 2nd 41

    2nd 41 Member

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  19. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Mike...I am not trying to come off as a prick in this thread and was actually pretty supportive of your first choice when others were implying you got hosed.
    The Franklin is a pretty decent gun safe but certainly not the best for the money.
    The Winchester,not so much in my opinion.
    I still am saying the sales guy has given you some false information.
    Unfortunately you placed a large deposit of money with him and now are in the position of choosing what he sells before you did a lot of research on gun safes.
    Hey,I made the same mistake on my first gun safe,which was buying before researching.

    So,in the end the above mentioned Presidential,Amsec BF,Summit,and Sturdy are all great gun safes and placed in a strategic strong point that does not allow a prying attack to get started and the safe is bolted down(key word here) these will handily prevent most residential burglars from entering the inside.
    But what they will not do is hold up against a concentrated attack with power tools.
    So unless a person blabs to the world that they own a XYZ gun safe,this kind of attack is quite remote in a residential burglary unless your the kind of guy that keeps Sawzalls,sledge hammers,carbide saws,etc. laying around.
    Good luck.
     
  20. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Comparing different types of guns is an apples to oranges comparison. Different guns serve different purposes. Comparing different metal boxes designed to stop burglars is an apples to apples comparison. A safe serves just one purpose.

    This discussion has also left out Griffin Safes. The designer is a SAVTA member, Mike Griffin. His products have been approved by the DEA. They make an entry-level safe with sheetrock fire liner, but with massive boltwork to prevent a successful pry attack. Their upper line uses a 1/4" plate steel door with another two layers of 1/8" steel on the door and a total of 1.5" of poured concrete on the door and a cumulative 1/2" thickness. The body uses two 10ga shells (over 1/4" cumulative) filled with concrete barrier between. The only other gun safe companies that use a commercial concrete barrier design is American Security's BF and TL-15/TL-30 line, Brown Safe, and Graffunder Safe.

    He shows boltwork on all the safes he compares.

    Skip to 3:22 to see the Griffin's entry level safe.
    Seven minutes in, he shows his line of commercial safe, retrofitted with a gun safe interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVUDCicerA

    A distributor doing a similar comparison of entry level safes and the two Griffin lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlDx7C8BHdg
     
  21. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Not that it matters a whole lot, but because I like to nitpick :D

    Mike is the distributor, not the manufacturer, and the design already existed although he did make several changes. Himself, and a few others of us, sell them nationwide. He's on the East Coast, I'm in the Midwest, and there's another one up North. The manufacturer was selling them themselves in the West, but wasn't doing a very good job. I'm also a SAVTA member, and I believe the gentleman up north is as well.

    The safes usually do not have a name attached, and have a few different logos on the door depending on where you're getting it from.
     
  22. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Thanks for the info correction. Does the manufacturer have a sales contact for us west coasters? The more choices people are aware of, the better. Saves a ton on shipping too.
     
  23. mikechandler

    mikechandler Member

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    Is that test really fair? I did this math using drop of 30M (100') on this calculator

    Winchester Legacy:
    Weight: 748kg
    KE: 213150 joules
    Impact Force: 2199119 Newtons

    Franklin Liberty:
    Weight 453kg
    KE 133182 joules
    Impact Force: 1331820 Newtons

    A difference of 867,299 Newtons impact force, or 194,000 pounds-force difference
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
  24. cbpagent72

    cbpagent72 Member

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    I honestly do not know which model of Winchester they used. Both safes appear to be comparable in size. We know they used the middle of the road Liberty Franklin and if I had to guess it would be the Franklin 25 with an empty weight of 660lbs. I would assume that they used a lower end or middle end Winchester safe since they specify it is Chinese made safe. From what I have researched the higher end Winchester safes are made in the US by Granite Safe Co. I am guessing that they used the Ranger Deluxe 31 which has an empty weight of 685lbs.

    The Winchester Legacy Premier 26 (965 lbs) would have to be compared to the Liberty Presidential 25 (985 lbs) to be fair.
     
  25. heeler

    heeler Member

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    The Winchester Legacy I recently looked at(three weeks ago) was made in Red China.
     
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