Best quality AK style weapon

I'm sure many would say the Krebs AK is the best, but they cost double what the Arsenal costs. Spending $1400 on an AK doesn't make sense to me.

I have a few in my collection that are some of my favorite rifles.

Arsenal SLR-106FR: 5.56mm Bulgarian. Accurate, lightweight, and very, very fast on target with irons. Easts EVERYTHING that I've run through it.

FIME SGL 21-76 7.62x39mm Russian with fixed stock. Basically a semi auto copy of the AK-103 export rifle from Izshmash. I run it with a RS Regulate mount and an Aimpoint Pro. Very accurate and fun to shoot.

FIME SGL 31-94 5.45x39mm Russian with Folding stock. Same optics package as my 21-76. Superb rifle and accurate and fast with Russian Surplus and Wolf steel case.

Definitive Arms SAIGA coversion, 5.56x45mm with the AR magwell conversion. Fun, Accurate, and uses mags that I already have, Brilliant. A bit heavier that my other AKM's, but balances well and is very accurate.

Best,

Don

VALMET, if you can find one...

i dont really pay attention to the "manufacturers".. or as what they really are is assemblers of foreign made kits.. i could only tell you in terms of the countries that do the actual manufacturing.. i hate anything out of romania, and found the highest quality to be from bulgarian or polish made parts

I'm pretty settled on Russian guns. I like the Bulgarians, Polish, and some Yugo rifles, but the Russian ones are my favorites.

The best ever imported into this country are the Valmet M62(7.62x39),Valmet M76(5.56-223rem.),and the IMI Galil (5.56-223rem.). Also very good are the Chinese Prebans.

The VEPR is a pretty nice machine and is an ideal candidate for conversion. Krebs is nice, but the price is a joke. Anything assembled by Arizona Response Systems is a pretty high quality unit.

The real beauty of the AK is if you find one with a straight front sight, straight gas system, rivets without gaps or excessive crunch, etc you have an AK that will likely run with any high dollar units.

Simply from watching the YouTubers who shoot, most really seem to like their Arsenals.

For the caliber of x.39 I'd be going with a SIG 556r.

Sig 556r

The best AK's are probably derivations of the original:


Top two, which along with the South African R4 were developed as a collaboratiion between Finland and Israel. They are essentially the same (very early Galil's used Valmet produced parts)

#1: Valmet. These are *the* top drawer pick. You get what you pay for. My 76 is a gem and will never be sold.

#2 Galil. You cannot go wrong. I have one of the .308 ones that I bought new a LONG time ago that I had shortened to 16" way back when. I'll find a 5.56 one for the collection when In get around to it (have several "sleepers" though, keep reading below).

Actually, for the above, it's a toss-up. I really like the Galil safety arrangement... and yes it can be added to a milled receiver AK if you have access to parts and aren't afraid of cutting a slot in the bottom of the receiver. The Valmet is just... sublime.


Next up:

Converted Saiga's.... best bang for the buck available today.

SIG 556 of course... about as highly evolved as the AK gets.

And the sleeper... that nobody but me seems to appreciate: A good Golani, which is a surplus Galil parts set built on a new receiver. Yeah... they are "Century" and all of that... but there are really nice ones that duplicate the quality of the Galil's at a fraction of the cost. Look at them as the basis for a custom rifle (like a Saiga) and enjoy. Refinished and shortened... what a gem. Nobody can afford to experiment with custom work on an original Valmet or Galil, but these are mechanically identical to both and are cheap enough to play with.



In "Real AK's":


Arsenal's of all ilks.

Norinco (Short segue: recently shot an original select fire Type 56-1 that was built in 1960, that had obviously been thru several jungle wars, had zero remaining finish and obvious rust pits and blotches externally, with the wire hangar for the sling literally rusted off. Bore & Piston was shiny. We put 500 rounds thru it full-auto in bursts ranging from doubles to mag-dumps without a failure to fire... so "thumbs up" to the Chinese...) The Chinese pre-ban guns are exactly the same as this one.

MAADI (am I the only one that remembers these?) These are very high quality factory built Egyptian rifles.



In parts set guns:

Well done Yugos on good receivers (Nodak Spud, for me), are my favorites.





In the end they are all just AK's. Hard to get "really" excited about them. Pick one.


Willie

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Question on y'all Sig 556R owners...you run the cheap steel ammo through it and does it work well?

Realize it likely won't be real accurate, but for training or IDPA type shooting, is there any issues with steel cased Ruskie rounds?
Thanks!

^^^


"bang bang bang bang bang" (repeat as required until spam-can is empty).


Willie


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best AK is the polish beryl.. imported as a civilian rifle called the archer.. its a 5.56mm AK that can do 1" groups at 100

^^ Valmet was imported by Interarms. Sam Cummings imported these long before any other AK's were around. They were expensive then, and are more so now. They really are the creme' de la creme' of AK's.



"best AK is the polish beryl.. imported as a civilian rifle called the archer.. its a 5.56mm AK that can do 1" groups at 100"

Nonsense.



Willie


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I have a Bulgarian folder AK74 deal done by InRange, built on a Nodak Spud receiver. I could not be happier with it. Its super accurate and quality is topnotch. Much better than some of the Arsenals I have had. It also has one super sweet trigger. My only complaint is the finish on them could be better, but get a good cerakote job and this is not a problem.

I have a pre-ban Norinco in 5.56 (AK84S) that has been a flawless performer (It is, after all, an AK).

... and yeah, Willie, I remember the MAADIs as quite desirable rifles.

CENTURION 39 SPORTER. Maybe not to Arsenal quality (never fired an arsenal), but it certainly is the best one I have fired. It is 100 percent MADE IN USA, with an American flag logo on the side. Amazing rifle.

Nonsense.

Click to expand...

Actually more than one credible witness has reported MOA groups with Archers. So it's not nonsense. People love to knock AK's as completely worthless in the accuracy department. But with AK's coming in calibers that are generally more accurate, plus the market being flooded with new products and rifles almost daily, they are bound to put an AR to total shame on every level sometime in the near yesterday.

fireside44 said:

Actually more than one credible witness has reported MOA groups with Archers. So it's not nonsense. People love to knock AK's as completely worthless in the accuracy department. But with AK's coming in calibers that are generally more accurate, plus the market being flooded with new products and rifles almost daily, they are bound to put an AR to total shame on every level sometime in the near yesterday.

Click to expand...

people just like to assume AKs are inaccurate because someone they knew shot an old piece of crap wasr once with low quality, 40 year old surplus ammo and wasnt very accurate with it.. saiga .308s can shoot as well as M1As and FALs as well to prove the inaccuracy with AKs has more to do with bad ammo and low quality examples of AK rifles

i just wish i could afford an archer

also, i dont believe any cartridge is inherently accurate.. sure the low BC of the 7.62x39 will make it drop quicker.. but if bullets were identicle and powder was identicle, the shots should still land pretty close to one another.. so it has more to do with most 7.62x39 ammo being very low quality surplus.. i still prefer 5.45x39 over 7.62 though

"Actually more than one credible witness has reported MOA groups with Archers"


I've shot MOA groups with a prewar Winchester Model 94 in .32 Win Special with a fuzzy bore and iron sights... but just not repeatedly. Fliers usually hurt groups, but sometimes you get lucky. I'd bet very good money to see someone knock out ten such groups in a row, and I'm not afraid of losing my money. There's simply no such animal as a "1 MOA AK" that can produce such groups repeately, time and time and time again.


In any event that's not what the design is optimized for, and a statement "the best AK is a Polish Beryl which can produce 1 MOA accuracy" is laughable nonsense on it's face.




"people just like to assume AKs are inaccurate because someone they knew shot an old piece of crap wasr once with low quality, 40 year old surplus ammo and wasnt very accurate with it"

While others have been shooting a wide variety of different examples using a wide variety of ammunition for 30+ years and are not relying on what we read on the internet to form our opinions. Service Rifles are Service Rifles. They shoot like service rifles. AK's are at the top of the service rifle pyramid for reliability and at the bottom of the pyramid for accuracy. Those are just the facts.


Go shoot some reliably repeatable 1 inch groups with an AK at 100 yards and then come back and show us some targets. My guess is that we will be waiting a very long while....



Best AK? Let me add a few more thoughts:


1: Do you want a military-type sample of a classic military rifle as was used to fight wars far and wide? If so, you should look for a Norinco if you are Viet Nam centric and any of the "classic" AK's if you are euro-conflict centric. If you are interested in European issue, see (Number 4) below. If you are interested in mideast-conflict period AK's then look for an Egyptian MAADI. Pick your war, pick your rifle. I've stuck here with "original factory built" rifles: In order to really get one each of the "big three" your third will need to be a parts set rifle, see #4 below).


Willie's Pick: One each of Norinco, MAADI, and a good Yugo M70 (see #4 below) to represent the three major areas of conflict in which these were used: Southeast Asia, Mideast, and Balkans. You want a MILLED Norinco, to represent the Chinese Type 56 (AK-47) that we saw in Viet Nam as a contrast to the stamped MAADI (which represents a baseline issue AKM). Point of fact: You could stop collecting right there as these represent the two MOST SIGNIFICANT military versions of the AK design and ALL OTHERS are just derivitives. The Yugo that we will discuss later is really a THIRD version of the AK, different dimensionally from others, and significant in it's own right.



2: Do you want an "evolved" AK that is not representative of COMBLOCK issue, but is a Westernized military derivitive? if so, you should look at Valmet & Galil. The Valmet and Galil's are highly collectable and VERY high quality from a fit, finish, and dimensional standpoint. Many think that the Valmet is the ultimate "Classic" AK. I tend to agree.


Willies Pick: Valmet.



3: Do you want a "21st century military AK"? If so, look at Arsenal, properly modified Saiga, and Beryl, etc. These are the high end "21st century European issue" varieties. A segue from these are the US builds (Krebs, etc) that are "fantasy 21st century" rifles that are simply studies in how to extract the best performance from the platform (and the most money from the buyers). These are the "bespoke customs" and they can range from excellent to garishly silly.


Willies Pick: Arsenal, the closer to Russian Issue the better.


4: Do you want to amass a real collection of interesting and unique variations? Start buying rifles built using parts sets or building up your own parts sets that are available for a HUGE variety of different versions used by (everyone) in the 60's, 70's and 80's. You could have two dozen and not come close to exhausting the possibilities. Of these, Yugo parts set are very good, and good Yugos built from high quality parts sets on good US receivers, such as the Nodak Spud or similar, are excellent. Since many of these are "custom" rifles (meaning low production number rifles from assemblers ranging from craftsmen to Bubba) you ought to be able to be personally discriminating as you pick one. ALL of these will have US Receivers, it's just the nature of the beast.

Willies Pick: Reach into the cracker-barrel and enjoy what comes out. When bored, pick another. Repeat as required. Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, East German, Yugo, you name it... all are interesting. Keep 'em as original as possible and enjoy. Willies FAVORITE picks: Yugo M70 on a Nodak Spud receiver or a Two Rivers Arms "Tabuk" (Iraqi AK) which are built using Yugo parts on a US receiver.


5: Do you just want a utility shooter? Buy anything. The basic WASR is actually a decent albeit non-collectable utility rifle that will serve 99.9% of us as well as the most expensive custom build. Ditto any of the Yugo PAP's being sold new. These are all solid rifles. Note that these are all EUROPEAN FACTORY ASSEMBLED RIFLES and what you gain (original factory assembly) you also pay for in the form of them needing to be brought into compliance with US regulations after they are imported. ALL of them are imported as not being able to accept standard capacity double stack magazines, and ALL of them are modified in the USA to accept those magazines and bring them into compliance with BATFE rules. You ARE going to get one that has had the magazione well opened up, and a handful of US parts installed. While there were some teething pains as this process was developed, a good shooter is a good shooter, and most all of them are good shooters.

Willies Pick: WASR for economy, PAP as one step up. Note: If you want to Bubba an AK, stick on silly AR type stocks, cheap red dot sights, and all of the tacti-cool-crap, please use one of these. Willies PERSONAL pick, which is the rifle he tosses into his boat or truck or airplane to actually carry afield as a GENERAL USER is a recent-import completely non-collectable Yugo PAP with an ACE side folding stock added and Houge overmold forend and pistol grip. That with a half dozen loaded mags goes into a M-60 machinegun spare barrel carrying case and lives wherever Willie lives at the moment, local laws permitting.


6: I'm not sure where to place the SIG... it's none of the above and... it's not "really" an AK. Have one, love it, but still.... it's not really an AK.

Willies Pick: Buy one if you really want a modern 7.62x39 rifle and don't really care much about history.



So how do you define "best quality"? Within each sub-category? If so, then you can probably gain some concensus if you assemble a group of people interested in that sub-category. Overall? You'll never gain concensus as there are people who are interested in "classic" and others interested in "modern issue" and others interested in "bespoke custom creation" etc., etc., etc. Bottom line? If you need to ask, the subtle differences don't mean anything to you (yet). Just buy a PAP and enjoy it while you learn more. You'll end up with at least ten of the damned things anyhow, so why not start now? ;-)


The above is based on collecting these at an advanced level, and having done so since only the Valmet was available in the late 70's. I'll date myself to say that I bought my MAADI new, as well as my Norinco and my Galil.


If I could keep just one... ONLY one.... <scratches head>... Damn: I'd need more data... as a collectable? AK-47 or AKM? Hmmm.... I'd keep the MAADI. To carry after the "inevitable civil war and breakdown of society, and it would be all I had for the rest of my life fantasy": Probably the Valmet. I'd REALLY only keep my (real) Scout Rifle after the SHTF, but that's another topic completely.

What should YOU buy as the first time AK buyer? Yugo PAP. Best bang for the buck. If you need a better AK than this, you probably aren't here asking questions about them.


And Jason: There ain't no reliably 1 MOA AK.... and that's based on knowlage, not supposition,





Willie

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im going to guess willy sutton is one of those people with little AK knowledge that has his mind made up theyre just 6moa rifles with parts loosely slapping around in the receiver and only manufactured in third world countries by children

Hey Jason...

I've been shooting them for 30+ years and have more than 25 of them in my collection. You might learn something from listening to others now and then. I took over an hour of my time this AM to carefully write what I put above. You might be Thankful on Thanksgiving for the education that's being laid on your table, with your only cost being the time to read it, and a mind open enough to learn from it.

The most accurate AK in my collection is the Valmet. It's not usably more accurate than my most Bubba's POS junker, which is a Romanian parts set built up on a bolted-trunion build on a receiver flat that we folded in the shop. Yes, it's more accurate, but not usably so. Interestingly enough that Bubba-POS outshoots several other rifles in the safe. Them's the breaks.... The rifles range from ones that I think are doing fine shooting 2+ inch groups to a few that will do 3 out of 5 into 1.5 inches if I do my job. None are "precision rifles" by any accepted term of the word. The Valmet might shoot a one inch group of 3 shots now and then, the mechanical accuracy of the rifle is better that the sights.

When I want to shoot accurately, I grab the Steyr SSG off the rack.


Willie

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