Convince me that a .380 is in the arena with a 38 spl
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MedWheeler
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The .38 really isn't that "much larger" to begin with; calibers are almost identical. What sets the .38 ahead of the .380 (in similar-length barrels) is bullet weight. There just aren't too many .380 rounds using bullets of over 100 grains, let alone 135 or 158 grains.
But, in typical "self-defense" guns (CC pieces), the .38 loses some of its edge when the bullet leaves the barrel before its powder charge is done pushing. (This issue, however, is addressed in "short-barrel" loads, like Speer's 135-grain Gold-Dot round.)
Being designed around short barrels to begin with, the .380 already had been "optimized" for those little guns, wasting little of the charge's ability in guns with +/- 3-inch barrels.
So, in short barrels, one has the advantage in weight, and the other in velocity. The impact-energy tables tell which advantage is greater, but I'm too tired and it's too late in the day for me to look them up now. My money is on the .38 in most bullet configurations.
But, in typical "self-defense" guns (CC pieces), the .38 loses some of its edge when the bullet leaves the barrel before its powder charge is done pushing. (This issue, however, is addressed in "short-barrel" loads, like Speer's 135-grain Gold-Dot round.)
Being designed around short barrels to begin with, the .380 already had been "optimized" for those little guns, wasting little of the charge's ability in guns with +/- 3-inch barrels.
So, in short barrels, one has the advantage in weight, and the other in velocity. The impact-energy tables tell which advantage is greater, but I'm too tired and it's too late in the day for me to look them up now. My money is on the .38 in most bullet configurations.
rswartsell
Member
I just don't get it. Med Wheeler has freely admitted that if loaded with .380 bullets the .38 spl. has no appreciable advantage.
What? Who ever since the 1899 introduction of .38 spl. tried to do that?
The standard bullet weight since the inception of .38 spl. has been 158 gr. 148 gr. if loading full wad-cutter for bulls-eye competition. With modern powder blending for barrel length, AND bullet design for expansion at lower velocities, the .380 has little to offer in competing with .38 spl. defense rounds. You have been given a perfect "straw man" argument.
The .38 spl. was the marvel of the age in it's ballistic improvement over the .32's (both Colt and Smith) and the .38 S&W. It became the standard for Police use for what? 50 years?
Technology as mentioned has improved it greatly in recent years as mentioned. And now someone wants to claim that it doesn't do much better than .380 in 95 gr. bullets?
OK find me a 95 gr. .38 spl. self defense load and we will compare.
Unbelievable!
What? Who ever since the 1899 introduction of .38 spl. tried to do that?
The standard bullet weight since the inception of .38 spl. has been 158 gr. 148 gr. if loading full wad-cutter for bulls-eye competition. With modern powder blending for barrel length, AND bullet design for expansion at lower velocities, the .380 has little to offer in competing with .38 spl. defense rounds. You have been given a perfect "straw man" argument.
The .38 spl. was the marvel of the age in it's ballistic improvement over the .32's (both Colt and Smith) and the .38 S&W. It became the standard for Police use for what? 50 years?
Technology as mentioned has improved it greatly in recent years as mentioned. And now someone wants to claim that it doesn't do much better than .380 in 95 gr. bullets?
OK find me a 95 gr. .38 spl. self defense load and we will compare.
Unbelievable!
the thread was created in a light lackadaisical air, and heres a reply in that format.
The .380 truly is in the same arena with the 38 special.
both cartridges experienced a hey day in the 1920s-1940s. Both have fallen out of favor on and off the following decades. based upon movie stars using htem in movies, or just tactical fad.
On the ammunition standpoint, both calibers have had horrible ammunition created for them. There are some 'hi tech" .380 jhp bullets that if they expand they penetrate a few inches in gelatin. same for 38 spcl. And you get high tech bullets in factory loads that were actually meant to be pushed at 6-800 fps then what the calibers can actually, and just turn into fmj.
but both have the same issue, as do all handguns, that when its 3 am and your on the side of the road with a flat tire, and a strange vehicle pulls up, you want something a tad bigger. ideally belt fed and automatic.
The .380 truly is in the same arena with the 38 special.
both cartridges experienced a hey day in the 1920s-1940s. Both have fallen out of favor on and off the following decades. based upon movie stars using htem in movies, or just tactical fad.
On the ammunition standpoint, both calibers have had horrible ammunition created for them. There are some 'hi tech" .380 jhp bullets that if they expand they penetrate a few inches in gelatin. same for 38 spcl. And you get high tech bullets in factory loads that were actually meant to be pushed at 6-800 fps then what the calibers can actually, and just turn into fmj.
but both have the same issue, as do all handguns, that when its 3 am and your on the side of the road with a flat tire, and a strange vehicle pulls up, you want something a tad bigger. ideally belt fed and automatic.
rswartsell
Member
Bezoar doesn't like either.
It would have been that simple to establish his position. I disagree and believe that .38 spl. has utility beyond 9mm kurz. I think I'm on pretty firm ground.
Do what you think is best.
It would have been that simple to establish his position. I disagree and believe that .38 spl. has utility beyond 9mm kurz. I think I'm on pretty firm ground.
Do what you think is best.
Underwood 90 grain +p exceeds 1200 fps from my EDC
listed above a .38 110 grain +p is 1050 fps
Also, a solid lead ,380 ACP penetrate about the same if not more as any .38 Special.
You don't have to destroy major vitsls. Just hit them. Also, most .380 ACP have a reloading advantage,
Then you have the reliability of the revolver.
Throw up two $20 bills and what he wants he'll keep. My guess is both will hit the ground.
listed above a .38 110 grain +p is 1050 fps
Also, a solid lead ,380 ACP penetrate about the same if not more as any .38 Special.
You don't have to destroy major vitsls. Just hit them. Also, most .380 ACP have a reloading advantage,
Then you have the reliability of the revolver.
Throw up two $20 bills and what he wants he'll keep. My guess is both will hit the ground.
fiftybmg
member
.380 ACP is nowhere near a .38 Special
jimbo555
Member
They both have similar results in actual shootings. The advantage of the 380 is in the platform. Smaller, more rounds, easier to shoot and reload.
In my opinion, it depends on the platform.
My Beretta M84 (380 ACP) with a barrel approaching 4" is similar in performance as a 2" 38 Special. Of course, the M84 carries 14 rounds versus 5 in the snub nose revolver.
The micro 380 ACPs, not so much.
+P ammunition helps the 38 Special, longer barrel revolvers help the 38 Special.
Of course, my opinion and $5 will get you an overpriced designer coffee.
My Beretta M84 (380 ACP) with a barrel approaching 4" is similar in performance as a 2" 38 Special. Of course, the M84 carries 14 rounds versus 5 in the snub nose revolver.
The micro 380 ACPs, not so much.
+P ammunition helps the 38 Special, longer barrel revolvers help the 38 Special.
Of course, my opinion and $5 will get you an overpriced designer coffee.
Case size can be deceptive. A 38 special CAN be loaded to 357 mag levels. In fact prior to the 357 being introduced there were hot loaded factory 38's designed to only be shot through large framed guns. People didn't follow the directions and damaged a few smaller framed 38's which led to the 357 magnum. The case was made longer more to prevent it from being chambered in 38's than to give more room for powder.
With handloads, in a proper gun, a 38 can exceed 380 by a wide margin. But with most factory loads 380 is the hotter round.
With handloads, in a proper gun, a 38 can exceed 380 by a wide margin. But with most factory loads 380 is the hotter round.
Schutzen
Member
.380 vs .38 SPL
Each round has it's place. The .38 SPl is more powerful than the .380, but it comes in a larger gun. I carry a .380 when the .38 SPL is too large to conceal. Any gun you have on you is much more powerful than the one you left in the car or your desk.
Each round has it's place. The .38 SPl is more powerful than the .380, but it comes in a larger gun. I carry a .380 when the .38 SPL is too large to conceal. Any gun you have on you is much more powerful than the one you left in the car or your desk.
Pocket guns: J frame vs P3AT or LCP
J frame: 5 shots with a little more power (+-200# KE)
P3AT/ LCP: 7 shots (+-150# KE)
Sure the 38 wins in outright power, but sacrifices two rounds.
In the pocket carry arena, the winner is a matter of preferences.
I hardly notice a 380 in my pocket compared to a J frame, two more rounds seals the deal.
J frame: 5 shots with a little more power (+-200# KE)
P3AT/ LCP: 7 shots (+-150# KE)
Sure the 38 wins in outright power, but sacrifices two rounds.
In the pocket carry arena, the winner is a matter of preferences.
I hardly notice a 380 in my pocket compared to a J frame, two more rounds seals the deal.
MedWheeler
Member
rswartsell writes:
My first department-issued round was the Winchester 95-grain +P Silvertip hollow point.
Took three rounds from it to fell a hog once, though, from a distance of about six feet.
My first department-issued round was the Winchester 95-grain +P Silvertip hollow point.
Took three rounds from it to fell a hog once, though, from a distance of about six feet.
snooperman
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If one looks at the research data from actual shootings compiled by Greg Ellifritz and others, you will find that there is not enough of a difference between the 380 and 38 sp to really argue about. Yes, you can hot-rod either one to justify your claim a little here and a little there, but in the final analysis it is not much. If you are not happy with either you can choose the 9mm or 357 magnum.
shootingthebreeze
Member
Any handgun is designed for close in defense, even with .357 or .45. Especially with your bigger calibers distance decreases effectiveness because of the heavier bullet.
I looked into the .380 dilemma last summer because I have a Kahr .380 and I love it-very concealable. I concluded that precision of marksmanship is critical with the .380 so I spent quite a lot of time with my .380 concentrating on grouping my shots in a tight pattern at the shooting range at the short pistol range. My efforts did pay off with increased accuracy over time and a lot of ammo.
Knowing one's .380 and practicing to increase precision is the key in having a .380. It's a lethal little round if used right.
I looked into the .380 dilemma last summer because I have a Kahr .380 and I love it-very concealable. I concluded that precision of marksmanship is critical with the .380 so I spent quite a lot of time with my .380 concentrating on grouping my shots in a tight pattern at the shooting range at the short pistol range. My efforts did pay off with increased accuracy over time and a lot of ammo.
Knowing one's .380 and practicing to increase precision is the key in having a .380. It's a lethal little round if used right.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I can't either - I own both as well.
To make the water cloudy or cloudier I have to add that I hand load and belong to a support group that shoots each others guns and are actively seeking the best solutions for the other members in terms of carry pistols and calibers thereof. We/I have some observations about the .38 Special VS .380 ACP.
We have a Ruger LCR - I'm 6/3" and weigh a very fit 175lbs. My Wife is the same age and 5' and a fit 110lbs. With full house 158 gr. .38's I can deliver 3X to target with the snubbie LCR - she cannot. Why? My hand is about .75X heavier (more mass) and I am more experienced and train a lot more. With a .380 Glock 42 she and I are equal and can deliver 3X .380 to center mass accurately in less than 1 second.
OK...cool. I dumbed the .38 Special down until she could triple tap with the LCR the same as she does with the Glock 42. Tried lower and lower powered rounds until we get to 110 gr. wad cutters and enough powder to push them hard. We did finally get the LCR in .38 to be the equal in her hands (and in the hands of several other group members who are smaller of stature and less trained...) and then boogie checked terminal ballistics.
Here is the skinny: By the time we make a manageable/concealable .38 Special revolver as manageable in rapid fire as a .380, the advantage of the terminal ballistics of the .38 have yielded to the .380. We can dumb the .38 down to get the rapid accurate hit possibility to equal the .380 but when we get there the .380 has better performance, more rounds, faster reload. Granted, maybe not a fair comparison but that's what we found. Consistently in the hands of multiple shooters.
I'd rather have my Wife who is smaller and much more likely to be attacked have a controllable 7 rounds of .380 and be able to deliver accurate fast follow ups than a ballistically superior .38 Special with 5 rounds that she cannot hit in rapid follow ups - the added oomph (which is not much, by the way, in terms of penetration) does not make the package or platform add up.
If we start comparing full size .38 Special revolvers with 4" barrels we can get better terminal ballistic performance by a significant amount in accurate controlled rapid fire. But then the guns are way too big to be handy/carried/concealed by the same folks. Can the .380 equal the .38 Special? I don't think so but the .380 is still a better choice for some folks in some situations.
If we are only gonna compare brute force and terminal ballistics without thought about functionality the .38 Special will win that comparison every time.
VooDoo
To make the water cloudy or cloudier I have to add that I hand load and belong to a support group that shoots each others guns and are actively seeking the best solutions for the other members in terms of carry pistols and calibers thereof. We/I have some observations about the .38 Special VS .380 ACP.
We have a Ruger LCR - I'm 6/3" and weigh a very fit 175lbs. My Wife is the same age and 5' and a fit 110lbs. With full house 158 gr. .38's I can deliver 3X to target with the snubbie LCR - she cannot. Why? My hand is about .75X heavier (more mass) and I am more experienced and train a lot more. With a .380 Glock 42 she and I are equal and can deliver 3X .380 to center mass accurately in less than 1 second.
OK...cool. I dumbed the .38 Special down until she could triple tap with the LCR the same as she does with the Glock 42. Tried lower and lower powered rounds until we get to 110 gr. wad cutters and enough powder to push them hard. We did finally get the LCR in .38 to be the equal in her hands (and in the hands of several other group members who are smaller of stature and less trained...) and then boogie checked terminal ballistics.
Here is the skinny: By the time we make a manageable/concealable .38 Special revolver as manageable in rapid fire as a .380, the advantage of the terminal ballistics of the .38 have yielded to the .380. We can dumb the .38 down to get the rapid accurate hit possibility to equal the .380 but when we get there the .380 has better performance, more rounds, faster reload. Granted, maybe not a fair comparison but that's what we found. Consistently in the hands of multiple shooters.
I'd rather have my Wife who is smaller and much more likely to be attacked have a controllable 7 rounds of .380 and be able to deliver accurate fast follow ups than a ballistically superior .38 Special with 5 rounds that she cannot hit in rapid follow ups - the added oomph (which is not much, by the way, in terms of penetration) does not make the package or platform add up.
If we start comparing full size .38 Special revolvers with 4" barrels we can get better terminal ballistic performance by a significant amount in accurate controlled rapid fire. But then the guns are way too big to be handy/carried/concealed by the same folks. Can the .380 equal the .38 Special? I don't think so but the .380 is still a better choice for some folks in some situations.
If we are only gonna compare brute force and terminal ballistics without thought about functionality the .38 Special will win that comparison every time.
VooDoo
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