Convince me that a .380 is in the arena with a 38 spl

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.380 vs .38 Spl. Revolver Loading

"But seriously folks, ''............ Loading a magazine of an autoloader can be a real pain. This has been especially true for me since having to deal with arthritis in my hands.

Thanks to some good advise on THR, this problem for me has mostly been alleviated . UpLULA Mag Loader (9mm-.45acp) and Baby UpLULA (.22-.380) makes mag loading faster and easier. Note: Baby UpLULA also works for most 9x18mmMak's.

Revolver speed loaders such as HKS essentially does the same (but differently) for wheelguns.:)
 
Just an armchair opinion here as I don't reload, hunt, or shoot gel....

It sounds like the problem comparing .380 to 38 special is the same as 9mm and .357 magnum.

Spend a few generations downloading .357 so much that 9mm of the same weight "approaches .357 magnum power and velocity" and people start thinking that they're equals. Take the most powerful of one and the weakest of the other and all of sudden everyone starts thinking they're closer in performance than they ought to be.

Take the hottest .380 you can find and compare it a rather mundane 125gr .38 special of the same velocity and it's easy to say you'd rather just have the 2 extra shots of .380 in a similar sized package. I always suspected the greatest benefit of .38 special (and .357) over .380 (or 9mm) was that you can have a much heavier bullet and choose a more radical bullet design. Going lighter and loading the same design of hollow point bullet in both isn't using the greatest advantage of the revolver calibers.

I have a .380 It's loaded with standard pressure flat nose bullets at a moderate velocity. Loading anything hotter and heavier in a .380 sort of reduces the benefits of the .380 platform to me.... smaller, easier to shoot, and faster follow ups.

Speaking of... Are there many HP designs out there optimized for a revolver and that wouldn't function in an autoloader? Something like the Lehigh defense .45colt/Taurus Judge maximum expansion round comes to mind.
 
The biggest problem with the .380 is that it has historically been chambered in guns that were nearly impossible to shoot in a manner that could even remotely be called "accurate."

If you have not read Skeeter Skelton's 1980 piece on "The Mama Mia Mishap," now is the time to do so.
Clear all beverages from vicinity of keyboard.

http://www.darkcanyon.net/The_Mama_Mia_Mishap.htm
How much accuracy do you need at 10' in a tense situation?
 
Plenty accurate at SD distances

Glock 42 with 90 XTP +P at 12 yards:

M
 

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I had the same results with my Bersa. At 10 feet I got 1185 fps low and 1204 fps high. Except my group was at 15 yards. The chrony was at ten feet.
 
If one compares the .38 spl +P against the .380 acp using the charts found at http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp you will see there is little difference between the two in their relative effectiveness in actual shootings. The .380 acp fired from the typical short barrel of the pocket pistol is equal to most of the .38 spl loads. Only a few heavier loads in the .38 spl are more effective though only when fired from 4" barrels.

While some may argue with Marshal Sanow's statistics since they don't conform to their particular paradigms the MS data is still a viable way to compare ammunition effectiveness.

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.38 Special is "The Big Boy"

If one compares the .38 spl +P against the .380 acp using the charts found at http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp you will see there is little difference between the two in their relative effectiveness in actual shootings. The .380 acp fired from the typical short barrel of the pocket pistol is equal to most of the .38 spl loads. Only a few heavier loads in the .38 spl are more effective though only when fired from 4" barrels.

While some may argue with Marshal Sanow's statistics since they don't conform to their particular paradigms the MS data is still a viable way to compare ammunition effectiveness.

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'Nough said. It's .38 Special hands down! That's why it's "Special." The other is "Three Ate Zero !" Case closed!:D
 
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looks to lean heavily toward the 38 penetrating deeper, even out of the 2" barreled revolver. Perhaps now we should start a thread on rather 1-2" of penetration makes a difference.:)
 
If I'm shooting my .380 Auto, I'm shooting a relatively light bullet with a rounded profile, in order to maximize reliability.

If I'm shooting my S&W Model 60 .38 Special, I'm likely shooting either a 110 grain JHP +P or a 158 grain JHP (I have a lot of them hanging around). It has never, ever, had a reliability problem. I carried it for many years when I was with a federal agency.

If I were a bad guy, I would not want to stand in front of either one. All that being said... Why would I want to... "Convince me <you> that a .380 is in the arena with a 38 spl " ?? Buy what you want / carry what you want.
 
I vote for .380. When needed, it will be the one in your front pocket, right next to your hand. The more powerful .38 in the glove box or at home. They are just so easy to carry you'll always have it with you.
 
I don't know if 1 to 2 inches makes a difference but I am a firm believer that when it comes to handgun terminal ballistics only two thing mater, diameter and penetration. The more penetration the better and don't even get me started on the nonsense of over penetration or wasting energy. It seems that over history we keep going down this road of energy at handgun levels, didn't we learn that lesson in Miami in 1986? IMHO at the energy levels we are talking about it doesn't make a difference. Most heaver 38SP loads can penetrate 12"+ and still achieve some expansion, the only way your going to match that penetration in 380 is with FMJ.

Don't get me wrong if all you are comfortable with is 380 its better than nothing but I personally would only use FMJ in this caliber. I however do not think the two are that comparable in terminal ballistics.

Sorry for the rant I just done understand why we keep going back to energy when comparing handgun ballistics.
 
I don't know if 1 to 2 inches makes a difference but I am a firm believer that when it comes to handgun terminal ballistics only two thing mater, diameter and penetration. The more penetration the better and don't even get me started on the nonsense of over penetration or wasting energy. It seems that over history we keep going down this road of energy at handgun levels, didn't we learn that lesson in Miami in 1986? IMHO at the energy levels we are talking about it doesn't make a difference. Most heaver 38SP loads can penetrate 12"+ and still achieve some expansion, the only way your going to match that penetration in 380 is with FMJ.

Don't get me wrong if all you are comfortable with is 380 its better than nothing but I personally would only use FMJ in this caliber. I however do not think the two are that comparable in terminal ballistics.

Sorry for the rant I just done understand why we keep going back to energy when comparing handgun ballistics.
FWIW, the .380 Auto 90gr XTP loaded to +P velocities (1000+ fps) will reliably penetrate at least 12 inches AND expand in several gel tests. Especially reliable and effective is the 90 XTP load sold by a small company called Precision One.

http://www.precisiononeammunition.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_2_37_42

My own personal testing with the Glock 42 with 90 XTPs ahead of 4.5gr Unique shows penetration of 18 inches of water with nearly .50" expansion at 1035 fps.

The bullet still has to penetrate deep enough to hit something vital to be considered effective, regardless of caliber. Expansion is a plus...


M
 
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The 9 mm short has filled many a grave in this world. Who would be willing to stand in the path of one? That about says it all in my book!
 
No doubt there are some 380 loads that will expand and penetrate but they are the exception not the rule. The XTP is one but it expands very little, I have used the XTP in different calibers for hunting for years and my experience with them is they are hard and don't expand a lot. The jacket will normally peal back but the core just doesn't expand much, not necessarily a bad thing.

My main point is energy level is not a good comparison for hand gun rounds, it just doesn't mean a lot.

One other point is I often hear the phrases "I wouldn't want to get shot with either one" or how many people have been killed with this or that. The way I look at it is even the smallest calibers are capable of killing someone but how long does it take and will it keep them from shooting back at me in that time.

No handgun round is ideal for sure and shot placement is key. But even with perfect shot placement if the bullet doesn't penetrate deep enough its not going to be effective.
 
There have been more people and animals killed by non expanding bullets such as round nosed or full metal jacket than any other type of bullet.

More gun fatalities have occurred in the world with bullets smaller than .356 (9 mm) of an inch. The AK 47 is .32 caliber and the AR 15 is .22 caliber. J Edgar Hoover and Adolph Hitler both used and preferred the .32 caliber round.

John Moses Browning's most famous creation was the 1903 .32 ACP auto loader which was up-sized to .45 caliber at the request of the military to take down horses during WW I. The military also demanded the thumb safety.

These are all historical facts that can be found at any library!
 
My own personal testing with the Glock 42 with 90 XTPs ahead of 4.5gr Unique shows penetration of 18 inches of water with nearly .50" expansion at 1035 fps.

How's that new gun running? I'm into the .380acp so I'm thinking this might be a gun for my wife(she doesn't like the LCP) either that or an LCR.38spl like my daughter has.
 
I Prefer .38 Special

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it looks to lean heavily toward the 38 penetrating deeper, even out of the 2" barreled revolver. Perhaps now we should start a thread on rather 1-2" of penetration makes a difference.:)
Correctomundo! The .38 Special has been used by the Armed Services of the US, but I can't think of a single instance of the .380 being officially authorized.:)
 
Just don't try using either on a Moro Pirate, I have heard this before,
While the Moros were indeed the reason for the development of a handgun with more stopping power than the .38 caliber revolver, the Colt .45 caliber Model 1911 semi-automatic pistol in actuality was not used in the Americans� campaigns in Mindanao during the turn of the 20th century. The .45 caliber handguns that were actually used against the fanatical Moro warriors were the Colt .45 Model 1902 and DA Model 1909 revolvers.

In mid-1903, the jurisdiction of Philippine Constabulary was extended to the lands of the Moros through a newly-formed subsidiary organization called Moro Constabulary. In early 1904 the Moro Constabulary fought side-by-side with the US Army while serving as scouts against the Moros. In his annual report of June 1904, General Leonard Wood stated what he thought was obvious to anyone paying attention, �It is thought that the .45 caliber revolver [meaning Constabulary Model 1902] is the one that should be issued to troops throughout the Army� Instances have repeatedly been reported during the past year where natives have been shot through and through several times with a .38 caliber revolver, and have come on, cutting up the unfortunate individual armed with it�The .45 caliber revolver stops a man on his tracks, usually knocking him down� � Besides the .45 caliber revolver, Wood also requested that soldiers assigned for outpost duty and as an advance guard be furnished with 12 gauge Winchester repeating shotguns.
Fulton wrote that in 1908, the Bureau of Ordnance finally approved the Colt .45 DA Model 1909 as the new service revolver of American troops. On the invention of the magazine-fed, semi automatic Colt .45 Model 1911, he pointed out, �In March of 1911 the Colt .45 caliber Model 1911 semi-automatic pistol was selected as the official sidearm of the armed forces of the United States, replacing the M1909 revolver. But it would not be put into production for another year. However the new M1911 did not reach US Army units just after they had fought their last battle against the Moros in mid-1913.�


The 1911 came a bit later on.,
Taken from here,:http://www.2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=434202&page=4.
It all goes back to bigger is better. But more than that it's an interesting part of history to read about. There is much to find on this little known battle in American history, perhaps some may find it worthwhile. Don't mean to hijack your post, but I figured after 4 pages it was starting to go circular so an addition to the power factor might be interesting.
These Moro warriors were walking right through the 38 caliber round due to drugs they took. So I believe it was Black Jack Pershing, ordered the 45 to be brought into service.
Even then they had problems with drugged up bad guys. And you said a light hearted reply.
 
Hp, jhp, fmj ?

I don't know if 1 to 2 inches makes a difference but I am a firm believer that when it comes to handgun terminal ballistics only two thing mater, diameter and penetration. The more penetration the better and don't even get me started on the nonsense of over penetration or wasting energy. It seems that over history we keep going down this road of energy at handgun levels, didn't we learn that lesson in Miami in 1986? IMHO at the energy levels we are talking about it doesn't make a difference. Most heaver 38SP loads can penetrate 12"+ and still achieve some expansion, the only way your going to match that penetration in 380 is with FMJ.

Don't get me wrong if all you are comfortable with is 380 its better than nothing but I personally would only use FMJ in this caliber. I however do not think the two are that comparable in terminal ballistics.

Sorry for the rant I just done understand why we keep going back to energy when comparing handgun ballistics.
I still don't trust HP in autoloader ammo, and prefer FMJ. Usually, I like semi-jacketed HP in wheelguns, but there are exceptions, which I will not go into now.:)
 
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6 of one, half dozen of another..

If you're talking standard loads, there's not much difference. 130 grain fmj .38 special 800 fps and 185 lbs muzzle energy; 95 grain fmj .380 acp 955 fps and 190 lbs muzzle energy. The .38 special is .357 bullet vs .380 acp at .355 diameter. The choice probably comes down to personal preference. ;)
 
If I'm walking out the door and my .380 Auto (dbl stack Browning BDA 380) is sitting there right next to my 2" S&W Model 60 .38 Special (5 shots)... which one do I grab to put in a coat pocket?

The 2" Smith. It will never, ever fail and there is less doubt about the bullet doing what it's supposed to do.
 
War of .38 Special vs .380acp

The .38 Special has been used, since the Moros, in WWI, and WWII, and after by American troops, many times.

The US Air Force, Strategic Air Command, FBI, and others have authorized its use.

From the 1920's through the 1990's, the .38 Special had been the standard sidearm of most American Police Departments.

I can't think of a single authorized use, by any of the defense or security services of the USA, for the official use of a .380acp. Somebody tell us if that is wrong, please.

In my humble, but accurate opinion, the ballistics charts, tests, and even history has proven the .38 Special is far superior to the .380acp. Not to say it doesn't have it's place in firearms nomenclature .

Would I want to be shot with a .380 ? No, but I wouldn't want to be shot by a .22 short, either.:)
 
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