Is seller, not FFL holder allowed to ship ammo directly to NY and NJ residents if it sells on GB?
Buyer according his GB account living in NJ, but gave residential non FFL address in NY, that why I get concern and posted question here.
And that's not necessarily true. While I haven't looked specifically at New York law, there are state laws which can apply extraterritoriality when conspiracy or aiding and abetting are involved. Some examples --Warp said:I'm not a lawyer (one will probably be coming along) but I've looked into this before, when selling and shipping items like ammunition and magazines, and this seems to be how it breaks down:
Not being a NY resident, and not being in NY, you are not subject to NY's laws....
609.025 JURISDICTION OF STATE.
A person may be convicted and sentenced under the law of this state if the person:
(1) commits an offense in whole or in part within this state; orIt is not a defense that the defendant's conduct is also a criminal offense under the laws of another state or of the United States or of another country.
(2) being without the state, causes, aids or abets another to commit a crime within the state; or
(3) being without the state, intentionally causes a result within the state prohibited by the criminal laws of this state.
State criminal jurisdiction.
The following persons are liable to punishment:
(1) ...
(2) ...
(3) A person who being out of the state, counsels, causes, procures, aids, or abets another to commit a crime in this state.
(4) ...
(5) ...
(6) ...
(7) ...
NRS 194.020 Persons liable to punishment.
The following persons, except as provided in NRS 194.010, are liable to punishment:
1. ...
2. ...
3. A person who, being out of the State, counsels, causes, procures, aids or abets another to commit a crime in this State.
4. ...
5. ...
939.03 Jurisdiction of state over crime.
(1) A person is subject to prosecution and punishment under the law of this state if any of the following applies:
(a) ...
(b) While out of this state, the person aids and abets, conspires with, or advises, incites, commands, or solicits another to commit a crime in this state.
(c) While out of this state, the person does an act with intent that it cause in this state a consequence set forth in a section defining a crime.
(d) ...
(e) ...
(f) ...
(g) ......
And not necessarily accurate as noted above.Warp said:...you aren't bound by NY state laws while in IL and I am not bound by IL state laws while in GA....
And that's not necessarily true. While I haven't looked specifically at New York law, there are state laws which can apply extraterritoriality when conspiracy or aiding and abetting are involved. Some examples --
- Minnesota Statutes 609.025:
- Washington State, RCW 9A.04.030:
- Nevada, NRS 194.020:
- Wisconsin 939.03:
I'm not planning to do any in depth research here, and I didn't look at New York law. My point is only that one can not blithely assume that you must do something in a State to be subject to the criminal laws of that State. In some cases, you can be charged for violation of a state law as a conspirator or accessory, even if you never actually set foot in that State.
And not necessarily accurate as noted above.
And that's not necessarily true. While I haven't looked specifically at New York law, there are state laws which can apply extraterritoriality when conspiracy or aiding and abetting are involved. Some examples --
...
I'm not planning to do any in depth research here, and I didn't look at New York law. My point is only that one can not blithely assume that you must do something in a State to be subject to the criminal laws of that State. In some cases, you can be charged for violation of a state law as a conspirator or accessory, even if you never actually set foot in that State.
And not necessarily accurate as noted above.
That's basically it. The prosecutor in Minnesota would go to a grand jury for an indictment, or file charges, get a warrant and, once the guy was found, wherever he is, extradite. Pretty much the same sort of thing that's done when someone who has been charged with a crime in one State flees to, or is found in, another State.Warp said:...Question: What can they do about it? Say you violate Minnesota's law by helping somebody in MIN break the law (shipping them something they are prohibited to possess)...but you never go to Minnesota...obviously they would have to come up with PC, get a warrant, and have somebody extradite you to MN?...
Yes. It's called "long arm jurisdiction."Warp said:...Is that something states can actually do? Apply their laws to people who are not in their jurisdiction?...
No, at least not dealing with someone shipping ammunition or the like to someone in a State in which it's regulated. If I did some research, which I'm really not planning on doing, I'm sure I'd fine many examples of long arm jurisdiction. One that I know of, and which hits close to home, is that because of certain investments I'm required to file state income tax returns in a number of State I've never been to.Warp said:Do you know of any cases, yet, where this has happened, that would be relevant to this discussion?...
that is nice ... and now YOU are out the final sales value fee ... unless they agreed to pay it to you.Problem solved, buyer refused provide FFL information, mutually agreed to cancel sale.
Looks to me like it was probe to "straw" ammo purchasing bypassing NY law.
that is nice ... and now YOU are out the final sales value fee ... unless they agreed to pay it to you.
Safe Act
Ammunition dealers are required to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York State for pickup. So while out-of-state vendors are required to ship ammunition to a NYS licensed dealer.
If GB will cancel the sale, refund your fees, then let it rest there and tell the guy to pound sand or move to a free state.Here we go again!
I sent request to GB Customer service to cancel sale and same message to buyer. Now Buyer want me to ship this ammo to his NJ address. Is any restriction shipping ammo directly to buyer in NJ?
I did not find any except that buyer need to provide DL and FID card before shipping.
Any suggestions?
Although that's the law, the fact is that there is currently no state database or system in place to do the background checks or report the sale. Any FFL can receive that ammo and hand it right over to you without doing a lick of paperwork. That's for now -- nobody knows what will happen in the future.Safe Act
Ammunition dealers are required to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York State for pickup. So while out-of-state vendors are required to ship ammunition to a NYS licensed dealer.