Selling ammo to NY and NJ from GB
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I'm not a lawyer (one will probably be coming along) but I've looked into this before, when selling and shipping items like ammunition and magazines, and this seems to be how it breaks down:
Not being a NY resident, and not being in NY, you are not subject to NY's laws.
The buyer can't receive it without going through an FFL, regardless of sender.
SleazyRider
Member
I'm not a lawyer, either. But I am a NYS resident (more accurately, a subject), and as far as I know, it's perfectly legal for me to drive 15 minutes into Pennsylvania, buy my ammo, and bring it back to the gulag we call New York State. It's also legal for me to ship it to my cousin's house in New Jersey, pick it up at our next family picnic, and bring it back to New York. I don't know how any of this could be considered a straw purchase as I'm not prohibited from possessing said ammo in New York.
As an aside, it gives me a tinge of satisfaction to know that I didn't pay New York sales tax---the very tax that funds our absurd SAFE Act!
As an aside, it gives me a tinge of satisfaction to know that I didn't pay New York sales tax---the very tax that funds our absurd SAFE Act!
NJ it's okay to ship ammo directly to a NON - FFL. Some on line commercial sellers require a copy of their NJ FID. The FID is required to purchase handgun ammo from retailers in state. Many NJ dealers require a FID for all ammo sales. If you're concerned ask a NJ resident to provide a copy of their FID. Not required if your out of state and not breaking any laws where you are but it may make you feel better.
I am not a lawyer but as far as I know, having looked into it, you shipping ammo to him would be no different than me shipping ammo to you without seeing a FOID first. Illegal for the person receiving, but you aren't bound by NY state laws while in IL and I am not bound by IL state laws while in GA.
Not that knowingly and willfully being part of a sequence of events that is ultimately illegal is necessarily a good idea.
And that's not necessarily true. While I haven't looked specifically at New York law, there are state laws which can apply extraterritoriality when conspiracy or aiding and abetting are involved. Some examples --Warp said:
- Minnesota Statutes 609.025:
- Washington State, RCW 9A.04.030:
- Nevada, NRS 194.020:
- Wisconsin 939.03:
I'm not planning to do any in depth research here, and I didn't look at New York law. My point is only that one can not blithely assume that you must do something in a State to be subject to the criminal laws of that State. In some cases, you can be charged for violation of a state law as a conspirator or accessory, even if you never actually set foot in that State.
And not necessarily accurate as noted above.Warp said:
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I found this on NY Ammo law guide:
Safe Act
Ammunition dealers are required to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York State for pickup. So while out-of-state vendors are required to ship ammunition to a NYS licensed dealer.
Safe Act
Ammunition dealers are required to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York State for pickup. So while out-of-state vendors are required to ship ammunition to a NYS licensed dealer.
Interesting.
Question: What can they do about it? Say you violate Minnesota's law by helping somebody in MIN break the law (shipping them something they are prohibited to possess)...but you never go to Minnesota...obviously they would have to come up with PC, get a warrant, and have somebody extradite you to MN?
Is that something states can actually do? Apply their laws to people who are not in their jurisdiction?
I have no idea how that would work (clearly).
steelerdude99
Member
I certainly would not like to be on the receiving end of a state such as NY who felt they've have found someone who violated their laws even if I've never been there. One would spend more defending themselves than what any item you could sell on gun broker (GB) would be worth.
I sold a few pellet guns there on GB and knew enough to not to ship to an NJ address. I even put that in the terms. NJ treats pellet guns just like a center fire or rim fire. Not 100% sure about air-soft, but why take the financial/criminal chance. I do however ignore "PayPal rules" for gun items as they don't have the force of law. I don't like to give a percentage to those evil liberals at PayPal, but it saves me several days and avoids fee(s) if I try to deposit a "bad check". Maybe in 2024 when eBay/PayPal buys California, it'll be different and they can e-mail me the warrant (sarcasm intended).
chuck
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Sav .250
Member
The "facts" beat opinions every time!
That's basically it. The prosecutor in Minnesota would go to a grand jury for an indictment, or file charges, get a warrant and, once the guy was found, wherever he is, extradite. Pretty much the same sort of thing that's done when someone who has been charged with a crime in one State flees to, or is found in, another State.Warp said:
Yes. It's called "long arm jurisdiction."Warp said:
Of course, the principles of due process limit the extent to which a State can apply its laws to someone not in the State. So you must have some meaningful contact or do something causing an effect in the State sufficient to justify that State applying its laws to you. But, for example, someone from out-of-state helping someone else commit a crime in that State would generally be found sufficient contact to justify jurisdiction in connection with that crime.
Do you know of any cases, yet, where this has happened, that would be relevant to this discussion?
It certainly sounds like playing with fire, but I know plenty of people who have done it, and retailers who, for example, ship ammo to IL without asking for a FOID at checkout, or similar...is it a matter of risking being the first or the example?
It certainly sounds like playing with fire, but I know plenty of people who have done it, and retailers who, for example, ship ammo to IL without asking for a FOID at checkout, or similar...is it a matter of risking being the first or the example?
No, at least not dealing with someone shipping ammunition or the like to someone in a State in which it's regulated. If I did some research, which I'm really not planning on doing, I'm sure I'd fine many examples of long arm jurisdiction. One that I know of, and which hits close to home, is that because of certain investments I'm required to file state income tax returns in a number of State I've never been to.Warp said:
The thing is that things like the occasional "off-the-books", private sale of small amounts of ammunition to someone in a restricted State, or the like, simply don't hit a prosecutor's radar. There's such a thing as prosecutorial discretion, and prosecutors get to decide how they use their limited resourced. But kind of like musical chairs -- you don't know when the music will stop. How many guys took some money to pick up a gun for a buddy before Mr. Abramski got hung out to dry?
Remember that there's a difference between being legal and getting away with being illegal.
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mgkdrgn
Member
that is nice ... and now YOU are out the final sales value fee ... unless they agreed to pay it to you.
Well, I think this is small price to pay, I sent message to GB customer support with explanation and will see what happens.
peacebutready
Member
Off topic: I wonder how much this increase the price of ammo to our fellow shooters in NY.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
We ship ammo to ffl's for customers. The typical charge to the customer by the receiving ffl ranges from 10 to 50 dollars.
Here we go again!
I sent request to GB Customer service to cancel sale and same message to buyer. Now Buyer want me to ship this ammo to his NJ address. Is any restriction shipping ammo directly to buyer in NJ?
I did not find any except that buyer need to provide DL and FID card before shipping.
Any suggestions?
I sent request to GB Customer service to cancel sale and same message to buyer. Now Buyer want me to ship this ammo to his NJ address. Is any restriction shipping ammo directly to buyer in NJ?
I did not find any except that buyer need to provide DL and FID card before shipping.
Any suggestions?
SleazyRider
Member
According to Palmetto's website, to ship to NJ requires a FOID for pistol ammunition, not rifle ammunition. I'd play it safe and have them fax (or scan and e-mail) their FOID.
mgkdrgn
Member
If GB will cancel the sale, refund your fees, then let it rest there and tell the guy to pound sand or move to a free state.
toivo
Member
Although that's the law, the fact is that there is currently no state database or system in place to do the background checks or report the sale. Any FFL can receive that ammo and hand it right over to you without doing a lick of paperwork. That's for now -- nobody knows what will happen in the future.
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