What distance to practice

If an aggressor is within 9 or 10 yards of you, is armed with a knife, and your handgun is holstered, you're going to get cut up pretty badly. When I was rangemaster for our department, we proved this over and over again, and that was from duty holsters, not concealed carry holsters. An agile aggressor can cover that distance and stab you before you can draw and fire from most concealed holsters, especially if covered by a garment.

You should be practicing at 15 to 25 yards with those handguns. When you learn to shoot at a little distance, then closer up becomes much easier. A little practice at 50 yards wouldn't hurt, either. You need to know what the capabilities of your defensive handgun are in case you need to use it at those distances.

All the internet hype about shootings taking place at 7 yards are pure unadulterated horse pucky. Sure, some do, but every time I was shot at it was from a longer distance, up to well over 100 yards. I was confidant enough in my handgun and my ability to be able to defend myself at those distances, but my primary concern was getting something solid between me and the shooter, to tell you the truth.

Did you know that if your handgun is sighted in at 25 yards, that you only need to hold over about 1.5" at 50 yards? Yet, I've seen people shoot well over the target when moving to the 50 yard line, thinking they have to aim over the head of the bad guy to hit him/her.

If you're going to carry a handgun for self defense, learn to use it at extended distances. It may just save your life, but we all hope it never comes to that.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Learn the limits of your skills.

Don't let the abstract limits of the law convince you to limit your training.

How far out could you use these before it would not be considered self defense ?

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Answer: The distance at which you feel no innocent person, including yourself, is in danger of immediate death or serious bodily injury. (This will depend on the situation, which cannot be assessed until it actually arises.)

The best advice I can offer is to seek some good basic training first, and THEN practice what your instructor(s) have taught you.

Good advice. But I would also submit that there's no arbitrary distance where you can draw a clear line in the sand as to what is self defense and what's not. And there could be cases where you might be justified in shooting to protect another where the range could be longish; an active shooter situation comes to mind. Off the top of my head I can think of two active shooter situations where rifle-armed killers were dropped by handguns at 60 yards and 100 yards respectively.

While I do not carry concealed, I do hunt with my handguns including a couple of auto's. My practice with them is usually at 25 at my local club as that is the longest they have. It keeps me inside my respective groove.

When at the farm however I will practice at 50, 75, and 100yds. While I might not shoot that far that often with calibers like my 41 magnum through my 454, I have in the past on quite a few occasions dropped feral hogs at 100yds+ on the first shot.

Where does this fall into defensive shooting? It is knowing the capabilities of both yourself and your firearm. If your hitting solid bull area groups at 50yds, your going to be planting some very solid hits closer in. If your confident in the longer ranges in other words, the short stuff almost comes without thought.

In terms of what is reasonable distance to still be considered self defense, I'd say it depends on the situation. I beleive the 21 feet rule isn't a max distance, just the distance that an assailant can cover in 1 second and still kill you. That being said, there have been a few instances of self defense shootings taking place at extended ranges, like, hundreds of feet/yards.


for training purposes, I'd be more worried about my ability to handle threats that are at a distance of "0" and are physically in contact with you, than I would be about long range, but I don't see there being any negatives in doing your live fire out to 25-50 yards on a regular basis, and the ocasional (maybe once or twice a month) out to 100 yards to really drive home the fundamentals. If you search, I'm pretty sure there is a thread on here about a guy using a little .25ACP out to 100yards. Then again, there's no sense in trying to make range time TOO hard on yourself

80% of my practice is 0-12 feet.

If you can hit consistently at 25 yards then you can hit at 7 yards. 25 yards is the max I practice regularly with an EDC but I shoot at 75-100 yards with my hunting handguns.
As my normal EDC is a pocket rocket I am not very accurate at 25 yards. I have no problem ringing the gong but shooting bullseye with the rudimentary sights is not something I can do at that distance. With my full size guns , CZ, Ruger, 1911 etc, I can do pretty well at the longer distances.
I think the most important thing is to be comfortable with how your gun operates and feels so any shooting is good for your motor skills. In all reality it will be unlikely that I can draw a gun from my pocket and deploy it before an aggressor can be on me from 10 yards away so situational awareness will be important.
I understand the mindset of only shooting at 7 yards and that maybe 25 yards isn't really "self defense distance" but if an attacker is shooting at you from 25 yards, or more, then that distance becomes SD distance. I don't want to die because I couldn't hit a target at 25 yards, or any other distance. I can hit a 10" target with any of my guns at 25 yards. 50 yards with a pocket rocket....not so much.

I agree, slow fire practice at 25yds does not translate into fast/accurate fire at 3-5 while one or both are moving.

I do 80%+ of my practice at 3-7 yds shooting fast and typically while moving. I always practice some at longer distances 10-15/25 yds and occasionally plink at soda cans at 100yds just to see what I can do.

Kleanbore, excellent point about speed. I should have clarified that I was thinking maybe once a week for a magazine or two just to make sure the fundamentals are being applied correctly.

Ranges....

I follow the advice of forum favorite: "Demo Dick" Marcinko, www.dickmarcinko.com .
Id practice shooting defense loads(not weak target rounds) at approx 30ft. If you can consistently hit a 3"x5" card or target at center mass, then you're doing okay for CCW/protection, .
Id add that to shoot or practice weak hand, from prone or ground(wounded) positions, low-light/darkness, & at CQB(close quarter battle: 0-3ft) distances is smart too. You don't need to be a SEAL or tier one commando but be aware of what your weapons do or will be like in these events.

Id also train to do magazine changes and always carry at least one spare magazine or speed strip(revolver).
Remember: two is one & one is none.

I perform the bulk of my training within three car lengths (15 yards) as that's the max practical distance I anticipate engaging a bad guy while carrying concealed, and represents the distance in which I may be attacked if my car is disabled on the side of the road and a bad guy(s) stops to rob me while I'm "vulnerable". Except for shooting from retention, all my close-quarter shooting techniques work very well out to 15 yards.

I do occasionally train at 25 yards just to maintain my ability to get good hits at that longer distance.

3" x 5" is about the size of the human heart. The spine is several inches wide and about 18" long. These are the two organs best for quickly stopping your attacker.

Actually, the mid-brain is the best place to quickly stop an attacker. Medulla is too small and the larger frontal lobe isn't a sure thing. The mid-brain the the "eye box" area outlined on some targets like a small T.

The heart is adult fist or orange sized, slightly larger than the mid-brain area. However, a hit still gives them 7-30 seconds of conscious voluntary control. Think of how many rounds you can shoot in 7 seconds...an entire gunfight's worth.

The spine...well this is a bone-armor plated nerve the size of a broomstick at the back of the body. And here is where that pesky 3rd dimension comes into play big-time.

With the heart and mid-brain, 3D is very important as your attacker won't likely be facing perfectly straight on and you have to hit this un-seen organ deep inside the body.

With the spine, now, unless their back is turned, we have to have our small handgun round traverse the entire torso, at the correct angle to intersect the spine at the back, and not be deflected along the way! Tall order, to make things worse, the bullet has to actually make it that far in terms of penetration and have enough energy to get through the vertebrae. Now we see why the FBI 12" minimum in ballistic gel is the minimum. 12" in gel is maybe 8-9" in a human considering skin tension etc.

I wouldn't be counting on ever hitting the spine as anything other than random chance. However, the more rounds you place center-chest, the more chances are you'll hit the heart and maybe the spine.

If you can reliably hit the heart or mid-brain from the low ready in under a second from 7yds and under, your doing OK in terms of a balance of speed/accuracy raw marksmanship skill. Don't expect this accuracy level when someone is shootin' back and you are both moving though...

chief99 said:

My 2 carry handguns are the S&W M&P shield , 40 cal. and the Ruger LCP .380. I practice with the Ruger at 3 and 5 yards and the 40 out to 7 and 10 yards. How far out could you use these before it would not be considered self defense ?

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Tom Givens of Range Master, has had over sixty students in gun fights.

He has found that the ranges in civilian fights tend to be LONGER than those in police altercations.

Why? Cause the police tend to get close to suspects before the festivities start.

He found the average distance as more like a car length for civilians. That is 5 to 7 yards.

Now some did take place farther, and a few did take place closer.

So if was practicing I'd focus a larger percentage of time on ranges of 7 yards or closer.

But note, I sad larger percentage, I did not say to ignore longer range practice.

And if you make shooting your hobby, you can practice more difficult exercises at longer ranges.

Deaf

chief99 said:

My 2 carry handguns are the S&W M&P shield , 40 cal. and the Ruger LCP .380. I practice with the Ruger at 3 and 5 yards and the 40 out to 7 and 10 yards. How far out could you use these before it would not be considered self defense ?

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The vast vast vast majority of self defense shootings take place at "bad breath range" ... measured in inches or feet ... not yards.

Not to say you shouldn't practice at longer distances ... but that isn't "where the action is".

I haven't been in a gun fight but I have been attacked with a knife before.

The onset of hostilities was a total surprise to me (drunk, (now ex-) friend) and happened at less than 3 feet (across the table).

By the time I knew I was in a fight he was already on top of me, I was on my back, and I was holding on to his strong side wrist with my weak side hand... and his strong side hand had a knife in it.

Self defense is ugly work - the only "tool" at my disposal was I had one elbow free, and used it on his face, repeatedly, until he wasn't conscious anymore.

Learning to shoot at any given distance you want to shoot is important, but there's more to it than a lot of folks in this thread are thinking. (E.g. I've never been attacked by a 3x5" index card...)

A firearm is just *one* defensive tool in your arsenal, and depending on how the festivities start off you might not be able to bring it in to play at all!

Shooting is one thing.

Being able to get the gun clear, smoothly, is far more important.

And having a backup plan if you can't? Even *MORE* important, still.

If you don't know how to fight at close contact distance ... go learn.

Self defense is when you feel threatened. Hard to say at what distance that might be for you.

The distance you are proficient would be your range. More or less.

If your an NRA member and get there American Rifleman magazine . Every month they have a section devoted to .......The Armed Citizen. Most altercations seem to happen in a home . Stores , etc.

Point is the distances involved are not great.

Are you an NRA member? Yes . Great!

if not, your part of the problem.