Vacuum sealing guns and ammo.

Like RC said in post #4.

The good news is, none of my weapons have been stolen since I buried them 10 years ago, I only wish I could remember where I buried them.

GS

If you vacuum seal you are creating a negative pressure package. If the packaging material degrades over time or gets damaged or isnt perfectly sealed it will actively seek to let air or water in as soon as possible. Much better to flood the package in CO2 or Nitrogen before sealing.

“Son if you feel it is time to bury your firearms maybe it’s time to use them”.

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That's what I've told people for years, the only exception I can see is to cache a rifle, handgun and cash in various areas you may frequent that are away from your home a considerable distance in which case I'd use a pelican case as the final container and purge it with inert gas.
I doubt that the food storage bags would hold up, I seal jerky in vac bags and often get holes pricked through the bags. Ammo cans with good seals should work so long as they haven't rusted through, just keep them dry and there will be no more moisture than when you closed the lid. I suppose you could stick a purge hose into the bottom of the can for a few seconds while running an inert gas and improve on that but I think it would be negligible.

I remember during Y2K, like many have said, you could not get 6, 8 or 10 in water pipe anywhere because folks where trying to bury everything. I even had a buddy buy a 300 gallon round plastic septic tank to stash food and supplies on his lake property and as far as I know it’s still there.

Grab and go cans was also the thing then. Vacuum seal ammo, matches, a knife along with a firearm and a couple mags and any other items you need to survive then put them in a weather sealed ammo can and burry the lot. Then if something happened they would have the basics to survive.

Just be careful where you burry it because there are a lot of folks into metal detectors and they don’t just work the beaten path.

I bury a lot of my stuff. The guns are right out there next to my ex wife

Seriously though, I'd like to know how it turns out, though I may be to old to care by then..

That's what I said in post # 18. Purge with nitrogen.

Most petroleum based greases and oils will eat most plastics pretty quickly.

moxie said,

That's what I said in post # 18. Purge with nitrogen.

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I mentioned that in Post 5. Nyah-nyah.

And I also suggested more readily-available welder's argon.

Which, I am told, does not leak as badly as some other inerts because it's a big atom.

Terry, 230RN

Got me!

(Are you up or downwind of Coors?)

(Are you up or downwind of Coors?)

Close enough to hear the beer trains going in and out.

I have some remote property on brackish water. things like wooden matches even when kept inside my trailer only last a few months. I use mason jars and a "food saver" jar sealer to suck the air out.

I would be worried that vacuum sealing ammo would pull the projectiles from the casings. As you pull a vacume there will positive pressure inside the cartridges. The could espicially be a problem with sealed waterproofed ammo.

If I really wanted to seal something long term I would put whatever it was into a large mason jar. Next put in a few oxygen absorbers and some desiccant packets. Then apply some permatex gasket sealant to the mason jar's gasket. Use the vacuum sealer to pull a vacuum to keep the permatex coated lid pulled down tight. Then repeatedly dunk the metal mason jar top in wax multiple times to build up layers of wax for the ultimate seal and rust proofing.

http://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-T03-0006-02P-Regular-Mouth-Jar-Sealer/dp/B000UQ428A

Dan

Dan Forrester

I would be worried that vacuum sealing ammo would pull the projectiles from the casings. As you pull a vacume there will positive pressure inside the cartridges. The could espicially be a problem with sealed waterproofed ammo

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Bullets are much harder to pull than that, which you will realize if you ever use a bullet puller, either inertial or a collet type. When the gas pressure rises, the bullet is not only being pushed on the base by the pressure, but the neck of the case expands to release the bullet.

Judging from the graph on page 322 of "Hatcher's Notebook," for the old .30-06 Service Cartridge, the pressure when the bullet starts to move is around 400 to 600 PSI as close as I can estimate. (There are some confounding factors there, but that should give you some idea of how tightly the bullet is held and the range of pressures involved to get it moving.)


Let's face it, with a cartridge loaded at a sea-level factory, the absolute air pressure in the case would be 14.7 pounds per square inch, the sea level air pressure.

If you were to suddenly drop the external air pressure on the cartridge to zero PSI, the maximum force from the inside pressure (sea level) on, say, a .308 diameter bullet, would only be 1.1 pounds if my arithmetic is correct.

After all, the area on the base of a .308 bullet is only 0.075 square inches, so multiplying that by 14.7 pounds per square inch gives you that 1.1 pounds of force on the base of the bullet.

I doubt you could pull any bullet out of its case using only 1.1 pound of pulling force... or pushing force from the air pressure inside of the cartridge case.

Incidentally, lacquer or other sealed bullets are much harder to pull "on the reloading bench," as opposed to when they are released from the neck expansion on firing.

Hatcher notes a case where a special lot of tin-plated match bullets designed by Townsend Whelen (yes, him) for the National Matches were very accurate, but could not be pulled out of the case by the usual collet or inertial bullet-pullers. Hatcher inquired of Whelen as to why this was so.

It turned out that the tin plating on the bullet tended to "solder" the bullets in the cases, preventing them from being released by bullet pullers. Still, this ammunition was very accurate because the neck expansion on firing released this "stickiness" and "many fine records" were posted at the range shack with that ammunition.

THE PROBLEM WAS, at that time, in order to minimize bore fouling (which was a biiiig problem with the service rifle and ammo at the time), many shooters greased their bullets anyhow, despite the fact that the instructions forbade the use of grease on that ammunition.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT was that the inevitable thin film of grease on the necks of the cartridges prevented the normal and proper release of these "soldered-in" bullets by the neck expansion.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT, IN TURN, was that some rifles were wrecked from the excessively high pressure developed with the cartridge all corked up real tight at a critical time in the internal ballistics.

That lot was withdrawn and the National Matches continued with ammunition drawn from previous stores.

Terry, 230RN

REFs:
"Hatcher's Notebook," op. cit. and pp 335-340

Dunno about burying...

We used simple kitchen vacuum sealers to store our "survival" Beretta .22s and .25s.

I know one of mine was sealed for years with its Federal ammo and aside from the fact that I tended to over lube before sealing there was never a problem.

Talking with a pal at a reunion a couple years back - his was still sealed from the mid '80s and he has no concerns whatsoever considering everyone else's performance.

Todd.

I use my sealer for one thing relating to guns... I live on a lake and there's a lot of moisture around. I was getting slight surface rust on my Wilson gauges and shell holders for my L.E.Wilson case trimmer. My solution? Since they are only used occasionally, each one is stored in a vacuum sealed bag and labeled by caliber. The bags are big enough to cut open and then seal again after I use the gauge. Result? No rust.

230RN: Thank you for the well researched response. Guess I must have missed it. Was pretty busy back this time last month.

I never really thought of it like that but I guess you are right worst case scenario is 14.7 pounds in an absolute vacuum. I never did try to remove a bullet except with pliers as a kid. I remember .22 rimfire was easy but centerfire cartridges were very difficult. I guess Ill need to give it a try.

Thanks again for the info, Dan

As for guns, we can simply buy them in a FTF deal.
No govt. records, as with retail transactions which seem to be the only kind of deals which most people trust.

Other than having a fire or theft, with FTF dealing the 'unmentioned problem' is solved.

DSAPT9 said:

Although the way things have been going I understand why you want to bury ammo and firearms but a good number of years back I met a Holocaust survivor who told me “Son if you feel it is time to bury your firearms maybe it’s time to use them”.

Just food for thought.

I agree with others if you put ammo in an ammo can with a moisture absorber you are good to go for a very long time and as far as guns a silicone sock is better than WD40.

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Keep out what you need to use and bury a little for future generations in case you aren't successful when you need to use them. That's always been my theory on burying them.

The trick is passing knowledge of the location down to the future generations without the wrong people finding out about them too.

No need for vacuum. Avoiding moisture is more important. Throw a little silica gel in a sealed container and you will maintain about 40% relative humidity. This is great for everything except wood. Musicians will tell you that 45% RH is the absolute minimum you should use for storing wood. Some anhydrous ammonium nitrate in a sealed container will maintain FH at about 59%.

That said, a surplus wood rifle stock is not a Stradivarius and 40% is probably OK except for some very expensive collectibles.

Mike

Rembrandt said:

Not into bagging and burying....that's for the undertaker. However there is a practical application when it comes to storing brass, sealed bags are convenient packaging.

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I do the same thing. 50 rounds to a zip lock when they come off the progressive press, then toss 'em all in to a 50 cal can. When I go to a match or to practice, I can reach in and grab the # of bags appropriate to the day.

Much less time consuming than boxing up ammo, and you can fit a lot more in to a 50 cal can without the boxes!

My brother wrapped up a nice antique .22 rifle in plastic and taped it all up for safe keeping. A few years later he checked it out and it was completely rusted. Apparently with air temp changes, condensation would accumulate in the plastic periodically and wet the rifle. Ya gots to be careful.

Glen said:

My brother wrapped up a nice antique .22 rifle in plastic and taped it all up for safe keeping. A few years later he checked it out and it was completely rusted. Apparently with air temp changes, condensation would accumulate in the plastic periodically and wet the rifle. Ya gots to be careful.

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If when this was done it was done under high relative humidity conditions the moisture was sealed in the bag along with the rifle. The idea is when we seal something in a package be it a plastic bag, can or whatever to do so under low humidity conditions (dry air) and in the interest of keeping things dry include a small descant packet. Well a descant packet capable of the volume we have.

Ron