Do not vacuum seal your ammunition!

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Hey, I bought some really crappy ammo once and stored it in a room painted blue. Coupla years later I had really crappy results with that ammo.

Which proves that blue rooms are bad for ammo.
 
ooooo doesnt rattle

why would it rattle if its in a can sitting in the back of the closet where no1 touches it
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Earthquake. :rolleyes: Brains are fun.

Or maybe it isn't in a can in the back of a closet where nobody touches it. Trunk of car, backpack, airplane, boat... to name some obvious examples.
 
It supplies it's own oxygen so it'll burn regardless of the altitude and propel seat out etc. But, I could be wrong as I can't seem to recall my source through the haziness of time.
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kingpin008 said:
That's incorrect, since smokeless powder was developed before there were airplanes with ejection seats, so it wouldn't have mattered what altitude the plane was at when ignition was attempted.
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maskedman504 said:
What does the development timeframe of smokeless powder and airplanes have to do with physics?
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kingpin008 said:
Not a thing. Why?
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That's what I was wondering.
 
Masked - my point, was that the properties of smokeless powder was already known by the time ejection seats came into existence, so the designers would have known that it doesn't require oxygen in order to ingite - therefore making the comment I was responding to false.
 
I had to go back and re-read the comment you were replying to.

It was not false.

The commend you were replying to didn't say airplane designers caused it to be what it is, only that they used it.
 
kingpin008 said:
Masked - my point, was that the properties of smokeless powder was already known by the time ejection seats came into existence, so the designers would have known that it doesn't require oxygen in order to ingite - therefore making the comment I was responding to false.
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Point taken; that property made smokeless powder a candidate then. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Edit: Ya, the conversation was convoluted; that is why I needed some explanation.
 
Smokeless powder burns - IT DOES NOT DETONATE UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS. It is composed of nitro cellulose and it does indeed depend on oxygen for its burn which is part of its composition. Some smokeless powder is "double base" and contains a percentage of nitro glycerin. It is considered a propellant not an explosive.

Detonation is a flame front that is supersonic like primers or blasting caps or black powder if the pressure is high enough.

I have ammo that has been vacuum packed for at least a decade and it works just fine. The problem I have had with vacuum packing is unless you are willing to remove the rounds from the packaging the cardboard can contain quite a bit of moisture which gets sucked out by the vacuum and compromises the vacuum. Also, the rounds themselves can "out gas" compromising the vacuum.

These days I store ammo in ammo cans or similar air tight containers with a good dose of desiccant.
 
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From SAAMI -

Oxygen from the air is not necessary for the combustion of smokeless powders since they contain sufficient built-in oxygen to burn completely, even in an enclosed space such as the chamber of a firearm.
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Link -

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1221/saami_pw.htm

This is not saying that you can't burn smokeless powder "in the open", just that it will burn completely in an enclosed space due to its chemical composition.

Also, it is not saying that the process is simple. There are problems associated with low powder volumes in large cases, for example, related to getting the burn rate consistent.

However, the statement that the smokeless powder won't burn because the air in the case has been removed probably won't stand up under close examination.
 
The High Road

kx250kev, thanks for contributing to The High Road. This forum is useless without questions and observations.
 
As I understand it they use it in ejection seats etc. It supplies it's own oxygen so it'll burn regardless of the altitude and propel seat out etc. But, I could be wrong as I can't seem to recall my source through the haziness of time
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And if theres no oxygen what are the planes engines burning their fuel with? Any GP, black or smokeless,is the rapid decomposition of a unstable compound. There is no"burning"[oxidizing] Throw a Cherry bomb under water.It go's "burp" quite nicely.
 
I don't know anything about chemistry, but I have vacuum sealed stuff. When you put things that have hard parts and soft parts, the soft parts tend to get drawn out. Put in a steak, for instance, and all the liquids (blood) will start to be drawn out toward the suction pump.

I've been considering doing this for years but I've held off because I'm lazy and because I figured the primer might "flow" or "expand". Maybe some other weird or unexpected changes will occur. I don't know, but those of you with vacuum sealers should try sealing different things. Like a single Oreo cookie. (I haven't done it, but I'd imagine the cookies would try to get closer and the filling would start to squish out.)
 
I don't know, but those of you with vacuum sealers should try sealing different things. Like a single Oreo cookie. (I haven't done it, but I'd imagine the cookies would try to get closer and the filling would start to squish out.)
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If you try this can you please post pics :D
 
I really doubt vacuum sealing had anything to do with this.

There's not much space in the casing after powder for gas.

Then there's the fact that air is only about 20% oxygen.

And that I'd expect air to re-enter the casing soon after you took it out of storage.
 
I don't know, but those of you with vacuum sealers should try sealing different things. Like a single Oreo cookie. (I haven't done it, but I'd imagine the cookies would try to get closer and the filling would start to squish out.)
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That's only the physical force of the atmosphere pushing down on the bag and the cookie. If you want to see what vacuum alone does to an oreo, put it in a plastic box with a hole in it, then vacuum seal that.
 
And that I'd expect air to re-enter the casing soon after you took it out of storage.
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Exactly what happens when a lower pressure area is exposed to a higher pressure area. They equalize if possible.

This is a perfect case of "coincidence does not equate to causation"

I vote for a bad batch.
 
Isn't there a reason we keep our powder hoppers covered? What is it that evaporates or off gasses if you don't?
 
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Something that you buy at Dunkin' Donuts.

Actually, they are teaching that combustion is now a tetrahedron, and not a triangle. They, scientists have identified that you need, fuel, heat, oxygen, and a free radical to cause and support it. Anyone who has taken a Fire-Fighter Course recently can vouch for this.

I've used vacuum sealed ammunition that was sealed for two years. It's not like you can pull 30" of mercury of vacuum, without lab equipment. Anything below "0" pressure is a "vacuum". :)
 
A few things to consider berore calling shenanigans on the OP:

Some smokeless powders contain solvents (like alcohol) which could evaporate out of the powder and change it's burn characteristics. This can go the other way too creating a high pressure sitaution.
Another possibilty is a change in seating depth. Small cased ammo like .25ACP - 9mm are somewhat sensitive to seating depth. If the bullets in such a case were pulled even as little as .01" it could drop combustion pressure by thousands of PSI.
And then there is the fact that while smokeless powder supplies it's own oxygen during combustion. Lack of oxygen in the case can affect ignition. The primer will normally fire without oxygen present but the metallic powder they shoot into the case will not burn well if at all in a vacuum. These embers play a major role in the ignition process. This is an issue more with large volume but low charge rounds like .38 Special.
 
my heavens to mucch koolaid.

will you people stop making fideots of your selfs.
smokless has its own oxygen and will burn any where.and its not vacume that causes duds.white box win has always had problems if its the dcm stuff.
I sent 2 bricks back and they sent me two new ones of win brand.they were trouble too.they would not reliable fire in pistols. but were fine in rifle.if not mistaken the military seals 200 rds in packs,and probably vacume pack to get mosture out.
powder is made with ether not alcohol.go look it up.I have been into guns from an early age and read constantly.I am not perfect,but not far from it:D
It is interesting reading to me.I have few hundreds spent on those kind of books and I got them when prices were low.:rolleyes: :uhoh:
 
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