CoRoMo
Member
Sounds like the cartridges had little to no active powder in them at all.
Do not vacuum seal your ammunition!
- Thread starter kx250kev
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I agree that lack of air in the case has absolutely nothing, zilch, nada to do with combustion of smokeless powder (which is usually a mixture of nitrocellulose, nitroglycerin, and often nitroguanadine), or with the detonation of the primer (usually lead styphnate).
What prolonged exposure to vacuum could do, however, would be to cause the primer and/or powder to deteriorate. One of the hard lessons of the early space program in the 1950's and 1960's was that many everyday materials, particularly organics, do NOT like hard vacuum very well. Outgassing of volatiles could seriously affect the characteristics of the powder or primer, as mentioned upthread.
What prolonged exposure to vacuum could do, however, would be to cause the primer and/or powder to deteriorate. One of the hard lessons of the early space program in the 1950's and 1960's was that many everyday materials, particularly organics, do NOT like hard vacuum very well. Outgassing of volatiles could seriously affect the characteristics of the powder or primer, as mentioned upthread.
DO NOT FIRE ANY MORE ROUNDS!!!!
Save all of the brass from those already fired. Save the unfired rounds. Save the box(es). Contact Winchester and report suspected defective ammo.
I did this and the company sent me a pick-up label for the ammo. They investigated and determined that the flash holes were too small. In my case it was Winchester Personal Defense .45 ACP, 230 hollow points.
As an expression of thanks, the company sent me an entire case of replacement ammo free of charge for the 2 boxes I "lost". Winchester's recall of the ammo a couple years back was started by my telephone call.
Go make the call.
Geno
Save all of the brass from those already fired. Save the unfired rounds. Save the box(es). Contact Winchester and report suspected defective ammo.
I did this and the company sent me a pick-up label for the ammo. They investigated and determined that the flash holes were too small. In my case it was Winchester Personal Defense .45 ACP, 230 hollow points.
As an expression of thanks, the company sent me an entire case of replacement ammo free of charge for the 2 boxes I "lost". Winchester's recall of the ammo a couple years back was started by my telephone call.
Go make the call.
Geno
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
SO much misinformation, so little time.
Air in a cartridge has nothing at all to do with it burning, or not. Many cartridges use a compressed powder charge, and there is practically no air in the case.
More air simply can't get in the case during the powder burn, because the bore is plugged at one end by the expanded case, and at the other end by the rapidly accelerating bullet.
Smokeless powder does not ever detonate. It burns.
Match ammo does not "lose" it's air by setting in the sun. Once it is Match ammo, it is always match ammo until you shoot it.
Smokeless powder does not have alcohol in it.
It may smell like acetone solvent, because that is used in the manufacturing process to dissolve the nitrocellulose during the grain forming process.
But it has nothing at all to do with the powder burning properly.
A Seal-A-Meal does not produce anywhere near the vacuum of outer space, and is not a factor in organics NOT likeing hard vacuum very well.
Whatever caused the OP's misfire problem had nothing at all to do with vacuum sealing the ammo and sucking the air out of it!
rc
Air in a cartridge has nothing at all to do with it burning, or not. Many cartridges use a compressed powder charge, and there is practically no air in the case.
More air simply can't get in the case during the powder burn, because the bore is plugged at one end by the expanded case, and at the other end by the rapidly accelerating bullet.
Smokeless powder does not ever detonate. It burns.
Match ammo does not "lose" it's air by setting in the sun. Once it is Match ammo, it is always match ammo until you shoot it.
Smokeless powder does not have alcohol in it.
It may smell like acetone solvent, because that is used in the manufacturing process to dissolve the nitrocellulose during the grain forming process.
But it has nothing at all to do with the powder burning properly.
A Seal-A-Meal does not produce anywhere near the vacuum of outer space, and is not a factor in organics NOT likeing hard vacuum very well.
Whatever caused the OP's misfire problem had nothing at all to do with vacuum sealing the ammo and sucking the air out of it!
rc
Ed Ames
Member
Vacuum packaging doesn't come close to approximating a hard vacuum. It reduces the free oxygen mostly by decreasing the displaced volume inside the bag.
If we are just talking a food saver type "vacuum" sealer, at best you sucked the excess air from the bag to collapse the bag around the ammo. You'd need a pretty stout unit to actually draw a vacuum to the point you are drawing anything from inside the cartriges...and even then, opening the bag would quickly undo it.
shooter429
Member
Bad box of ammo, IMHO
I agree that your vac pac would not degrade the ammo. Kinda makes me think twice about WWB. Course, since I make my own...
Shooter429
I agree that your vac pac would not degrade the ammo. Kinda makes me think twice about WWB. Course, since I make my own...
Shooter429
I've shot a lot of WWB ammo, and it has always worked dependably until this event. I posted here because I knew I could get some quick responses/answers as to what might be happening. Many of you are stocking up on ammo right now (at considerable cost) so if vacuum sealing was causing this issue, I wanted to throw up a red flag right away to warn you guys. To those that posted constructive and non-mocking responses, you have my sincere thanks.
This is sooo wrong I don't know where to start.
Let's take black powder because it is the simplist. It is made up of
sulfur
charcoal
potassium nitrate (KN000)
it is not a compound, it is a mixture of two elements and one compound
Further, none of the 3 are unstable.
This is the reaction that takes place
as I can't figure out how to to subscritps on here, I will manually write out any duplicace elements in a molecule. For example H20 would be written as HH0 as H2 means two Hydrogen atoms.
two potassium nitrates, one sulfur, and three carbons result in a potassium sulfide, a pair of nitrogens bound together, and three carbon dioxides.
KN000 + KNOOO + S + C + C +C = KKS + NN + C00 + C00 + C00
Note, exactly the same number and type of atoms exist on each side of the equation. This means nothing external needs to be added
THIS MEANS NO AIR.
Gunpowder 'burns' but it provides it's own oxygen.
People are getting hung up on that 3rd grade notion of 'heat + air + fuel = fire!' That was an oversimplificaiton.
heck, my formula is slightly simplified, because KKS sometimes doesn't want to form and sometimes some KKC000 and KKS0000 is formed.
(20 KNOOOO + 6 S + 23 C = 2 KKCOOO + 3 KKSOOOO + 5 KKS + 21 COO + 10 NN note, the equation still balances)
Jet Fuel...needs oxygen to burn, however, as far as using it in an engine, remember that at oxygen low altitude, the plane is moving quite fast, so it is constantly bringing in more oxygen.
We have 20% O2 in our air, and that works just fine for a campfire. But let's say we try and build that campfire at the top of a skyscraper built at the top of Mt Everest, where there is a lot less oxygen. One way we could get the fire to burn would be to take a big fan and blow air to the fire. Less O2 per cubic foot of air, but we correct by moving more cubic feet of air in/around the fire. Same with jet engine.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Brackets
Using brackets is an acceptable substitute.
Can be written:
KN0[3] + KNO[3] + S + C + C +C = K[2]S + N[2] + C0[2] + C0[2] + C0[2]
Lame, yes, but readable.
Using brackets is an acceptable substitute.
Can be written:
KN0[3] + KNO[3] + S + C + C +C = K[2]S + N[2] + C0[2] + C0[2] + C0[2]
Lame, yes, but readable.
Doggy Daddy
Member
Generic term for an Energizer Bunny.
kx250kev wrote,
BTW, The ammo physically looked fine, and no I didn't marinade them in oil or anything. These rounds were sealed for about 12 months. I guess more experimentation would need to be done to prove this is a bad idea. To be fair, this ammo was also stored in an unheated cabin during the winter, so I'm not sure if that could be a factor.
I have wonder this myself. If I vacuum seal .308 and bury them, would the tempature variences make them sweat over time? I know that here in the south, we dont have a frost line so, if I buried them say, 2' deep, the tempature should stay around 54 to 60 degrees. I know from experimentation, that if you put a piece of brass (I used .50 BMG), in the fridge, and then take it out and let it get room tempature, it sweats.
BTW, The ammo physically looked fine, and no I didn't marinade them in oil or anything. These rounds were sealed for about 12 months. I guess more experimentation would need to be done to prove this is a bad idea. To be fair, this ammo was also stored in an unheated cabin during the winter, so I'm not sure if that could be a factor.
I have wonder this myself. If I vacuum seal .308 and bury them, would the tempature variences make them sweat over time? I know that here in the south, we dont have a frost line so, if I buried them say, 2' deep, the tempature should stay around 54 to 60 degrees. I know from experimentation, that if you put a piece of brass (I used .50 BMG), in the fridge, and then take it out and let it get room tempature, it sweats.
But if you vacuum seal it first then it won't sweat when taken out since the moisture in the air can't condense on it. It may condense on the package exterior, but the only moisture that can form on the round is what is inside the package. And if you vacuum sealed it there should be little or none.
Ejection seats do not use gunpowder or explosives to remove the seat. A rocket motor is fitted under the seat and burns for approx. 8 tenths of a second. Explosive bolts release the canopy and seat mountings. Neither require an atmosphere with oxygen. Your ammo was bad when you bought it.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Ah, I wasn't thinking that through. Thanks!
This issue has pretty much been put to rest, but I'd like to point out that there is no way that air comes and goes in and out of rifle cartridges due to pressure. Figure it out--the bullet and primer are *press fit* into the brass, and if you put the cartridge into a place with total vacuum (fat chance) there would be at most about a 15psi pressure difference between inside and outside the cartridge. A regulation basketball is filled to a pressure of 7.5 to 8.5 psi.
People on this forum have reported that they have, as an experiment, put cartridges in water for periods ranging from hours to days, and they always go bang.
Tim
People on this forum have reported that they have, as an experiment, put cartridges in water for periods ranging from hours to days, and they always go bang.
Tim
sacp81170a
Member
Strange, I've sealed up 100 round boxes of WWB 9mm to store in the trunk of my car as part of my BOB gear and they worked just fine after 6 months in the trunk in an Arkansas summer. Can't tell you why yours didn't work, but mine weren't hurt at all.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I have shot untold thousands of centerfire rounds and have never experienced a dud. I did have a couple of missfires on an older marlin .30-30 but that was due to excessive headspace. I think the mfgs. are trying too hard to keep up with the ammo demand and their quality control or lack thereof is showing.
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barnetmill
Member
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You will not likely find any nitroguanadine in small arms powder. Slow military powders like 5070 may have some DNT in them. I once visited at an arsenal called the SAAP (Sun Flower Army Ammunition Plant) and the if recall correctly they made nitroguanadine that was used in cannons with the intention of reducing barrel erosion. They also made powder for rockets. Grain size was huge. I am quite sure that it was never used in small arms, but would be a pretty good powder ingredient for the .220 swift and other rounds that burn out their barrels due to overbore loadings.
rcnixon
Member
Deflagration is the proper term to use for the burning of propellents. Simply put, in a dentonation, the flame front moves faster than the local speed of sound. In a deflagration, the flame front is subsonic.
barnetmill
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You are basically correct. But I am believe that the "burn or flame of the primer" is faster than the speed of sound. I am not sure how to describe what happens with powder. I really do not know how fast it burns in a cartridge. It might go faster than the speed of sound that is not really that fast. However the powder normally does not detonate, if it did the gun would blow up. Unabsorbed nitroglycerine or nitrocellulose will blow a gun up and it took some years before the chemists figured out how to make these into useful propellants. That happened in the later 1800's and continued into the early 1900's. And powders have gotten a little better over the years with small improvements.
22-rimfire
Member
Moldy ammo boxes sure are a sign of a storage problem. 
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