If guns are the real problem....

BigBore44 · Jun 27, 2016

Whenever I hear someone having a conversation about how guns are the real problem, primarily dangerous "weapons of war", "machine guns", "AR's", guns that have "high capacity clips (ignorance)", I always ask "If guns are the really and truly the dangerous part of a mass killing, why don't the cops shoot the guns instead of the person holding the gun? And what does the gun do when the perpetrator(s) are neutralized or killed?" Oh? The gun stops killing people? That's amazing!! Then I ask "Then why hasn't my (fill in the blank) hasn't killed you or everyone around me? Because I'm very much alive. Now remember, the GUNS are the problem. You said so yourself."

Their response, if I even get one, always starts a long pause and a confused look. Something to allow "anti's" you come in contact with to ponder.....

planetmobius · Jun 27, 2016

They are not going to "ponder" anything. You assume the beliefs they represent to you are genuine, rather than just rationalized responses to advance an agenda.

taliv · Jun 27, 2016

being overly pedantic probably isn't helpful. it's only mildly humorous to people who are already supportive of gun rights. it says "i'm not interested in having a serious discussion" to anyone who isn't.

entropy · Jun 27, 2016

planetmobius said:
They are not going to "ponder" anything. You assume the beliefs they represent to you are genuine, rather than just rationalized responses to advance an agenda.

I could see where it could be effective with people who haven't really thought about the issue at all, and are merely parroting what they've heard. It might get them to think about what we already know; That guns are inanimate objects, and can do no harm (or good) on their own.

Warp · Jun 27, 2016

taliv said:
being overly pedantic probably isn't helpful. it's only mildly humorous to people who are already supportive of gun rights. it says "i'm not interested in having a serious discussion" to anyone who isn't.

Agreed.

No need to pretend WE are so stupid that when somebody says "guns are the problem" we don't understand that what they really mean is "people being able to have guns is the problem". We ALL know that the guns are not living beings that act of their own will.

entropy said:
I could see where it could be effective with people who haven't really thought about the issue at all, and are merely parroting what they've heard. It might get them to think about what we already know; That guns are inanimate objects, and can do no harm (or good) on their own.

I don't think so. Nobody cares that guns are inanimate objects and nobody actually thinks guns themselves are inherently good or evil or criminals or law abiding. Everybody knows it is what people do with them.

Yes I know there is an old quote about the blade itself inciting violence, but let's be serious...even that is speaking directly towards people's actions

BigBore44 · Jun 27, 2016

Well most of the time, the response I get is "You know, I never thought about that." And we continue the conversation. Of course there are those that will always disagree. No matter the facts. I just let Darwin deal with them.

Of course we know that guns are inanimate objects. But what my questions do is shift the blame from the gun to the shooter. Where it belongs.

Warp · Jun 27, 2016

BigBore44 said:
Well most of the time, the response I get is "You know, I never thought about that." And we continue the conversation. Of course there are those that will always disagree. No matter the facts. I just let Darwin deal with them.

What facts are you presenting them with?

BigBore44 · Jun 27, 2016

Warp,
I can't type them all out right now. But I keep http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp saved in my favorites to reference. Some stats are older. But many are quite current. Case law is cited.

And when/if they say "Yeah, it's on the Internet. It must be true (eyeroll)." I ask them where their information/facts comes from. I love when they grab their phone and open Facebook.

bikemutt · Jun 27, 2016

I don't hear frequent postulations that all guns are the problem; I do hear it about certain guns. Any weapon in the hands of someone with bad intentions is a bad thing. It's doesn't defy common sense to believe though, that a bad person armed with an AR15 can do more harm in the same amount of time as one similarly armed with a six shooter. If we pick my state, WA, the same bad person, assuming they don't have a carry permit, and no criminal record, can walk in and out of a gun store with an AR15 the same day, but have to wait up to 10 days for the six shooter.

Commonly available weapons that lend themselves well to creating as much carnage in as short a time period as possible will come under scrutiny.

herkyguy · Jun 27, 2016

What I usually hear from someone is that they "don't mind ME having guns" but they are concerned about "other people."

They rarely have any means of defining "other people" and therein lies the problem.

brewer12345 · Jun 27, 2016

Lets be honest here: anyone who engages you in a debate/discussion/shouting match on this topic has already made up their mind and will be very unlikely to change their views on the basis of whatever is said. Its sad that this is the way it is, but that seems to be the level of what passes for discourse in the US these days. If you have nothing better to do and feel like peeing into the wind to pass the time, have at it. But nobody is going to change their opinion no matter how convincing you are.

As for "assault weapons" and so on, we all know it is silly. I am pretty sure that if someone used to shooting one opened up in a crowd with a level action rifle in 357 or 44 mag with a full magazine they could make a real mess with lots of casualties before anything could be done about it.

Baron_Null · Jun 27, 2016

brewer12345 said:
Lets be honest here: anyone who engages you in a debate/discussion/shouting match on this topic has already made up their mind and will be very unlikely to change their views on the basis of whatever is said.

That's hardly an accurate generalization, in my experience. However, I don't engage with the quips or "clever" retorts, I treat it as a discussion and a debate.

It's worth remembering that the majority of people who espouse anti-gun arguments are, at the end of the day, people who are concerned about their own safety as well as the safety of others. They're not mindless hordes of insects that are driven by instinct, they're just scared people. Treat them like people and you'd be surprised what happens.

Enough with the canned responses and misrepresentation of arguments. If you want people to believe that our side is the logical side to support then it's time we started acting like it.

Claymore1500 · Jun 28, 2016

My question to liberals when they talk about "assault rifles" is "Why is it when you see a man walk into a gun store, he subjects himself to back ground checks in some places, a waiting period, he needs to complete a federal document regarding his purchase, you think, There goes a mass shooter, But if the same man goes into a local BP station, buys 5 gallons of gasoline with NO back ground check, NO federal paperwork, NO waiting period, no one thinks There goes an arsonist"

jamesjames · Jun 28, 2016

I had to look up the quote, "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence".

It is from Homer's Odyssey, when Odysseus has returned home to find Penelope keeping the suitor's trying to marry her at bay. By this time, Odysseus has traveled far, fought many battles and against many monsters during his long, arduous trip home. He is jealous of the suitors. He hates that they are in his home. He has learned of Penelope's loyalty to him.

In disguise, he works with his son Telemachus to devise the challenge to string his bow and shoot the straightest arrow. He tell Telemachus to hide all the weapons in the dining hall. When Telemachus is concerned that removing the weapons will seem suspect, Odysseus tells him to give a long line of subterfuge about how the weapons are tarnished from disuse and that having them around is a bad omen, "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence"

So this quote is not some great revelation about the evil that lies inside of every weapon, but a lie that sounds like the truth to allay the fears of unworthy men.

When liberals who hate guns say things like "The blade incites to deeds of violence", they are aping a line from the Odyssey that they don't understand and have taken out of context. The line is poetic and beautiful, but it is still a lie told to disarm the enemy before they are slaughtered. It is not some beautiful self-evident truth about the evil inherent in weapons. It is a lie told to disarm the unwitting mob.

carsten1911 · Jun 28, 2016

Thanks to JamesJames!

Dear JamesJames,

your thoughtful and well researched statement ist outstanding, one of the few I really will copy and use acticely, should the Need (and Chance!) arise....hopefully you are ok with me using your materiel.

This is one I really have to thank for!!

Have a good time and keep up the excellent work!

Carsten

blarby · Jun 28, 2016

Lets be honest here: anyone who engages you in a debate/discussion/shouting match on this topic has already made up their mind and will be very unlikely to change their views on the basis of whatever is said. Its sad that this is the way it is, but that seems to be the level of what passes for discourse in the US these days. If you have nothing better to do and feel like peeing into the wind to pass the time, have at it. But nobody is going to change their opinion no matter how convincing you are.

This has been the exact opposite of my experience.

larryh1108 · Jun 28, 2016

I believe that there are many passionate pro-gun people (such as the members of these gun forums). For discussion's sake, let's say it's 20% of the population. I also feel there is an equal number of anti-gun zealots who can't be reasoned with and, for discussion's sake, let's say it is also 20% of the population. Neither side will budge from their feelings and beliefs no matter what is presented or said.

So, that comes to (roughly) 40% of the population (for the sake of discussion).
That leaves 60% of the population that really doesn't know where they stand or what they truly believe. Some lean one way or another, depending on who they hang with but for the most part they are the fence sitters. Today they are anti-gun because that is the popular belief and tomorrow they are pro-gun because they are having dinner with different friends.

These fence sitters can be swayed, one way or the other, with thoughtful discussions and actual facts (instead of nonsense polls and biased agendas). I'd be willing to bet half of the fence sitters never even saw a gun in person and are curious but not enough to walk into a gun store. They wouldn't want their tennis partner or Pilates friend to know they are curious about guns. Curious people who don't voice their thoughts are the closet gun people.
Not everyone is pro-gun but not everyone is anti-gun. The anti-gun crowd sticks out because they are very vocal and pushy about their beliefs. The pro-gun crowd is usually quiet and keep to themselves. The fence sitters are everyday people who keep their mouths shut because they don't want to upset the vocal minorities. They are the people who can be persuaded to come over to the dark side. They are the votes we need to keep our rights and to fight the hillarys of the world. We need them.

BigBore44 · Jun 28, 2016

Fence sitters can be swayed by experience and information. Straight anti's can only be made to look foolish to those who are pro 2A or fence sitters. Their minds won't change. But they can aid you by showing how closed minded they are to facts and logic.

FOGeologist · Jun 30, 2016

When confronted by a colleague who posted online about how it was time to repeal the Second Amendment, I responded by thoughtfully suggesting that he attempt to form a party to create a Constitutional Convention.

Haven't heard back from him since.

He's a government teacher, and understands how difficult such a thing would be.

Jackal · Jun 30, 2016

Like I tell folks, I must own the most lazy guns ever made, they havnt killed ANYTHING. I'm still waiting, watching to see one move...I have my eye on you AR15 sitting in the corner... :scrutiny:

Midwest · Jun 30, 2016

A concealed carrier stops a mass shooting in a nightclub in South Carolina over the weekend and it gets no mainstream media mention except on some pro-gun sites like GOA and conservative outlets like Brietbart.
.

Frank Ettin · Jun 30, 2016

BigBore44 said:
...Of course we know that guns are inanimate objects....

The thing is that this business of "guns are inanimate objects" or "guns aren't dangerous, people are" is fundamentally sophistic balderdash. People are afraid of dangerous people with guns. I'm afraid of dangerous people with guns, and that's why I want a gun of my own (and some good training).

It's all about people who are afraid of guns and who are afraid of people with guns. Don't try to convince them that guns aren't dangerous. They won't believe you. I won't believe you.

Guns are supposed to be dangerous. They fling small bits of metal at high speeds long distances, instantly, on the demand of the handler with just a press of a trigger. Once fired that bit of metal will hit with potentially devastating effect whatever the gun was pointed at. A gun that doesn't isn't much use as a gun. It's that attribute of a gun that increases an evil person's capacity to do evil. It's also that attribute of a gun which makes a gun useful to the good person to defend against evil.

Suzi Soccermom isn't sure who she can trust with a gun. She's not really sure whether the guy on the next block who folks say has some guns is a level headed, normal, stand-up guy like her friends who don't have guns, or if he's kind of bent, tending to violence, or teetering on the edge of psycho. She might well imagine that many gun owners are more like the latter. She might even think that's why they have guns. And if you read the gun forums, some of our fellow gun owners aren't helping to dispel that fantasy -- some seem to try hard to confirm it.

She might be okay with guns if she could be sure that they were kept out the hands of the "wrong" people. But some recent rampage murders passed background checks and bought their guns legally.

A gun is a particularly efficient and effective way to increase a dangerous person's ability to do harm, and certain guns, like an AR-15, are particular efficient and effective types of guns for that purpose.

The reality is that guns are particularly effective and efficient tools for causing substantial injury to humans. They can be used for that purpose more effectively and efficiently than hands, clubs, or knives. That is why they tend to be the choice of criminals, psychopaths and sociopaths. That is also why they tend to be the first choice of the honest person who wants to defend himself and his family from criminals, psychopaths, and sociopaths.
__________________

harrygunner · Jun 30, 2016

Our enemies, sitting around planning their attacks, must think we are dumb as rocks when our "leaders" talk about disarming us as a response to their attacking.

harrygunner · Jun 30, 2016

Typical case of ignorance leading to fear.

I've found taking "anti-gun" people to the range helps. So far, the conversion rate is 100% Of course, this is in a group who were open enough to consider it.

I always conducted a lecture on safety (the four rules), range etiquette, handgun mechanics, handling, grip and sight picture. Constantly explained this is how most real gun owners behave. Then, we went to the range. At the range, I enforced safe handling.

After being around all those guns going off and people behaving well, their fears were significantly reduced. Always had requests for repeat outings. Several, later, dragged their families to the range.

Vern Humphrey · Jun 30, 2016

How about:

"Why are you trying to divide us? We had an "assault weapons ban" for over 10 years, and even its most ardent proponents don't claim it actually had any effect on violence.

Instead of demonizing gun owners, why not join with them in attacking the true causes of crime -- the culture of violence and lawlessness in our inner cities?"

If guns are the real problem....

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