If guns are the real problem....

[Warp]

In typical lawyereze 101 you dismiss half of the "reality" of bigbore44's argument. Just because firearms make it easier to kill than a club, bow and arrow, sword, etc. does not make them "the problem". Big bore's point is that it is the human that does the killing. A hellfire missile or a machine gun or ied pressure cooker or fire or a 75,000 lb truck all are very effective. The lack of logic in dismissing the cause of violence, being humans, is ludicrous.

Of course being a lawyer you could care less about actual reality, preferring the made up realities that are your stock in trade.

Nobody is missing bigbore44's supposed point.

His point is not a good or useful one. That's our point.

 

[Frank Ettin]

In typical lawyereze 101 you dismiss half of the "reality" of bigbore44's argument. Just because firearms make it easier to kill than a club, bow and arrow, sword, etc. does not make them "the problem"....

BigBore's argument essentially has no "reality."

...Just because firearms make it easier to kill than a club, bow and arrow, sword, etc. does not make them "the problem". Big bore's point is that it is the human that does the killing....

And you miss the point. Yes the human does the killing, but a human with a gun, and evil intent, is far more efficient and effective at killing than with a club, etc.

...The lack of logic in dismissing the cause of violence, being humans, is ludicrous....

Phooey! You simply refuse to understand that a human interested in killing is far more dangerous with a gun than with a club.

Furthermore, Suzi Soccermom knows that a bad person with a gun is more dangerous than a bad person with a club, and you will never convince her otherwise.

In fact, you will never be able to convince me otherwise, and I'm a card carrying gun guy. If you can't convince me, than how can you think you'd possibly have a chance to convince Suzi Soccermom?

One of the reasons you can't convince me is that, being a good guy I want a gun because I know I'm more dangerous to bad guys if I have a gun than if I only have a club. So I want a gun because that's a better "when all else fails" tool with which to protect myself and my family from bad guys.

 

[entropy]

And yet gasoline, fertilizer, and large jets, all used to commit mass murder here in the US, receive no such cries for making them illegal as guns , in whatever form, are. All three aforementioned products have been used to commit larger mass murders than guns have here in the US.

Funny how when antis find something used to commit mass murder useful to them, they backpedal and say, "But, but you just can't outlaw gasoline-it's useful!" And so are guns, as we here know. But guns are not personally useful to them, and they do not understand how they possibly could be, so in their misguided attempts to "do something", they push the outlaw guns.

I personally have no use for large jets, but I don't push for outlawing them, because I understand they are useful for many people.

Warp-did you read past the first sentence of mine that you quoted?

Yes, I agree there are better arguments available, I was merely pointing out another one to use. I think it is a valid counterpoint to '....but guns are what are used to commit mass murders.' It points out that other things have been used also, and with much deadlier results.

When antis say"...there ought to be a law..." I respond with "There is: <insert law here>. Criminals by nature are not going to obey the law, so who is affected by said law? Law-abiding citizens. What needs to happen is consequences for criminal action, real life altering, or if the crime warrants, life-ending, consequences."

 

[Warp]

And yet gasoline, fertilizer, and large jets, all used to commit mass murder here in the US, receive no such cries for making them illegal as guns

Each year many, many more people are murdered or injured with firearms than with by arson with gasoline. Many thousands are murdered using a firearm every year in the US. How many by arson? Tens or dozens? Orders of magnitude difference. Plus you kind of "need" gasoline just to live your day to day life. Very few people "need" a firearm in this way. As in, most of us can get up, go to work, go to the store for food, etc, even if we don't have a gun...but not without fuel for vehicles.

The comparison just isn't very good. We have much better arguments at our disposal.

And large jets? Seriously? How many people are murdered with "large jets" each year?

Yes, I know that one time "large jets" were used to commit mass murder. But can you or I or our neighbor or mr jihad easily acquire a large jet and use it to commit crimes? No. Can you or I or mr jihad do that with a firearm? Yes, absolutely.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...And yet gasoline, fertilizer, and large jets, all used to commit mass murder here in the US, receive no such cries for making them illegal as guns , in whatever form, are. All three aforementioned products have been used to commit larger mass murders than guns have here in the US....

That's very true and needs to continually and consistently brought up. For example, the worst school rampage murder was the Bath School incident in 1927. Thirty-eight children and six adults were killed, and the killer used explosives, not a gun.

...Funny how when antis find something used to commit mass murder useful to them, they backpedal and say, "But, but you just can't outlaw gasoline-it's useful!" And so are guns, as we here know. But guns are not personally useful to them, and they do not understand how they possibly could be,...

That is also true. One reason taking people to the range and introducing them to shooting can help promote the RKBA is that it helps people begin to understand how guns could be useful to them.

 

[JohnBiltz]

My quick come back answer is "Is that why prisons are so safe?"

 

[Warp]

My quick come back answer is "Is that why prisons are so safe?"

lol, I never heard that before. Very to the point though.

 

[BigBore44]

My "argument essentially has no reality". There must be some kind of riff in the space time continuum creating alternate realities. Because I'm quite sure that those discussions did take place.....in reality. They weren't fabricated as Mr. Ettin would have you, the members of the jury, believe. Rather, I believe, that his condemnation of my statements serve no other purpose than to discredit me so he can try and add an opposing point. As lawyers are so often portrayed as doing. Next he might say even say I'm not REALLY a Lifetime member of the NRA since he hasn't actually held my certificate in his actual physical possession. Just like he wasn't actually, physically present when the conversations I participated in, actually in fact, did take place on several occasions. Which is why I decided to start the thread on the topic.

Mr. Ettin will probably have a rebuttal where he will try to twist what I said to further discredit me. Or possibly, he will state something similar to me being childish for letting someone on an Internet forum "hurting my feelings" and how what he said isn't actually what he said just my misguided perception and he will simply reword it so lowly common folk like me can understand. But I understand completely. I understand Mr. Ettin wasn't there. I was. I also understand that this is an Internet forum and my feelings weren't hurt. But I also understand that I am a man of integrity. I don't need to fabricate something so I can get some kind of strange satisfaction from having some people I've never met read my post agree with me. This forum is the ONLY form of "social media" that I choose to have. And I understand that any man that would call another man a liar, without any proof, is a man of poor integrity. And that IS exactly what happened. No matter how he tries to twist it. And I also understand that a man of such poor integrity will never admit they were wrong and apologize. Rather they will say that they are sorry that I felt the way I do. Therefore putting it back on me.

See folks, I'm not a lawyer. I deliver auto parts and drive bass boats professionally. And I'm an EMT currently in nursing school. I'm not an elitist. Just a proud common man with a passion for my country and saving the people in it. All of which I'm quite sure is irrelevant to the Mr. Ettin. And a good lawyer will most certainly point out the irrelevance of those facts in his rebuttal. I would be mildly surprised if this post stays up very long and may very well get me an infraction. So be it.

I'm not a liar Mr. Ettin.

 

[slumlord44]

I have found that most anti gun people actually know little if anything about guns. Most people who are knowledgeable about guns aren't anti gun. It basically is the simple fact that people fear things that thy don't understand. Basic human nature at work. Education is the key but many people don't want to be educated.

 

[jamesjames]

I, too , got into shooting sports because of disaster preparedness and concern that I needed to protect my family from criminals, marauders, etc. People who have guns who would threaten me and my family. I was a good liberal and was very anxious about guns and gun shops and the people who hung out there. It took 6 years of shooting and frequenting gun shops before I got over the anxiety.

The fear was cultivated by my family and the culture i grew up in. Inner ring suburb of Minneapolis, neighborhoods full of professional families working at Control Data, Honeywell and the University of Minnesota. Listened to NPR and watched big 3 networks and PBS. I was carefully taught that guns were evil, people who shot guns or liked guns were evil, and all you need is a .22 rifle and a single shot shotgun.

Through meeting new friends in the shooting community at middle age, I got a new lease on life and a new perspective on guns and shooting sports. I am a liberal who is a gun owner.

But I grew up believing that guns were evil. I overcame that stereotype and the bigotry that fed it. But it was not easy.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'm not a liar Mr. Ettin.

I don't know how you turned my rejection of your argument into my calling you a liar. If that what you got out of my posts you really didn't understand them.

What I said was:

....The thing is that this business of "guns are inanimate objects" or "guns aren't dangerous, people are" is fundamentally sophistic balderdash....

Sophistry is not the same thing as mendacity (untruthfulness or lying). Sophistry is:

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.

2. a false argument; sophism.

As such, your argument really has no reality because it is fundamentally flawed or fallacious. But that is still not lying. It is merely poor reasoning.

And I stand by my comments and the views I expressed in posts 22 and 28.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Frank has spoken.... Don't pay any attention to the fact that even in areas where civilian gun ownership is forbidden there is mass killings where the bad guys use guns, or knives, or bombs, or vehicles, or whatever is available. That is what evil does...... Refusing to identify the enemy will allow future sacrifice of innocent lives to the Gods of political correctness. Frank lives in San Francisco and he is an attorney so he does not live in the same world as the rest of us.

 

[Warp]

Frank has spoken.... Don't pay any attention to the fact that even in areas where civilian gun ownership is forbidden there is mass killings where the bad guys use guns, or knives, or bombs, or vehicles, or whatever is available. That is what evil does...... Refusing to identify the enemy will allow future sacrifice of innocent lives to the Gods of political correctness. Frank lives in San Francisco and he is an attorney so he does not live in the same world as the rest of us.

Nobody is refusing to identify the enemy.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank lives in San Francisco...

Actually, I don't live in San Francisco. I live in the San Francisco Bay Ares, which is something entirely different. In fact, I live in a small, largely agricultural community some 50 miles from San Francisco. But you've never been especially careful with your facts, so why would you start now.

....Don't pay any attention to the fact that even in areas where civilian gun ownership is forbidden there is mass killings where the bad guys use guns, or knives, or bombs, or vehicles, or whatever is available....

But the fact that there are other ways to commit mass murder doesn't change the fact that guns are one of those ways -- and a very efficient and effective way. More to the point, explaining that there are also other ways to commit mass murder doesn't necessarily make Suzi Soccermom and her friends any less afraid of guns or the people who own guns.

 

[BigBore44]

My point in making this thread was not in the hopes of getting into a legal jargon/word smithing argument with a retired lawyer/moderator. He has the right to be wrong. And he has the right to not admit it.

But the fact is some people do in fact see guns as evil. jamesjames in post #35 on the last sentence included himself on that list for a period of his life. And also stated it wasn't easy to overcome the stereotype. There's a time for sipping a glass of whiskey and a time to take a shot. Some people need to be gently shown the error of their ways. Some need to be flat out shown how wrong they are. Both methods work. It's the individuals ability to read another person that can tell you how to approach. You see, a few of the people I had those conversations with in my alternate reality were coworkers of mine. Coworkers that respected me because I have a habit of doing right by people. So I knew I didn't have to give it to them in a sippy cup. I could show them how absurd their positions were. So I gave them a shot of it. Then I gave them facts from the website in my earlier post. I left them thinking. Not convinced. They could see they were wrong. But they needed to absorb everything to come to terms with it. Now guess what they ask me about when we have time to BS? Yeah. Guns. Guess who's gone shooting with me and just asked me today when we could go again? Yeah. They did.

Pretty happy with the results of my alternate reality.

 

[Warp]

My point in making this thread was not in the hopes of getting into a legal jargon/word smithing argument with a retired lawyer/moderator. He has the right to be wrong. And he has the right to not admit it.

But the fact is some people do in fact see guns as evil. jamesjames in post #35 on the last sentence included himself on that list for a period of his life.

I think this is more to the point

I doubt james would have been so anxious and afraid if he was standing in an empty gunshop with literally nobody else possibly there, and guns resting against the wall. I suppose we would have to ask him, though, if he would have seriously been afraid of a gun jumping up to kill them in that scenario.

I, too , got into shooting sports because of disaster preparedness and concern that I needed to protect my family from criminals, marauders, etc. People who have guns who would threaten me and my family. I was a good liberal and was very anxious about guns and gun shops and the people who hung out there. It took 6 years of shooting and frequenting gun shops before I got over the anxiety.

The fear was cultivated by my family and the culture i grew up in. Inner ring suburb of Minneapolis, neighborhoods full of professional families working at Control Data, Honeywell and the University of Minnesota. Listened to NPR and watched big 3 networks and PBS. I was carefully taught that guns were evil, people who shot guns or liked guns were evil, and all you need is a .22 rifle and a single shot shotgun.

Through meeting new friends in the shooting community at middle age, I got a new lease on life and a new perspective on guns and shooting sports. I am a liberal who is a gun owner.

But I grew up believing that guns were evil. I overcame that stereotype and the bigotry that fed it. But it was not easy.

 

[BigBore44]

You think Suzi soccermom is just magically going to show up on your doorstep one day and say "Hey Mr. Ettin, I'm Suzi Soccermom from down the street that's really uneasy about guns. Teach me". Talk about my realities!! Suzi is gonna learn from interacting with you on a walk. Or as you wave and smile as she drives by. You don't even know Suzi is uneasy about guns anyways. Hardly anyone knows their neighbors anymore. You're arguing a fictitious point about a fictitious person. You'd have to close your own threads in "Legal". Bet that would get frustrating.

 

[BigBore44]

Warp, I can't answer for him of a fear about a gun jumping off the wall. But I can tell you that when you're taught something is evil, and you believe it, you don't test it alone by yourself. Sometimes you believe it's safer and easier to never test it. And honestly, it took courage for him to do that. We might laugh at the absurdity of it in our eyes. But fear is real. And fear is a very powerful force. More powerful than anger ever thought about being.

 

[danez71]

Whenever I hear someone having a conversation about how guns are the real problem, primarily dangerous "weapons of war", "machine guns", "AR's", guns that have "high capacity clips (ignorance)", I always ask "If guns are the really and truly the dangerous part of a mass killing, why don't the cops shoot the guns instead of the person holding the gun? And what does the gun do when the perpetrator(s) are neutralized or killed?" Oh? The gun stops killing people? That's amazing!! Then I ask "Then why hasn't my (fill in the blank) hasn't killed you or everyone around me? Because I'm very much alive. Now remember, the GUNS are the problem. You said so yourself."

Their response, if I even get one, always starts a long pause and a confused look. Something to allow "anti's" you come in contact with to ponder.....

If who ever you're talking to has the confused look, it may be because you aren't making sense to them.

Perhaps you should change your arguement to something that will be more effective.

 

[Warp]

You think Suzi soccermom is just magically going to show up on your doorstep one day and say "Hey Mr. Ettin, I'm Suzi Soccermom from down the street that's really uneasy about guns. Teach me". Talk about my realities!! Suzi is gonna learn from interacting with you on a walk. Or as you wave and smile as she drives by. You don't even know Suzi is uneasy about guns anyways. Hardly anyone knows their neighbors anymore. You're arguing a fictitious point about a fictitious person. You'd have to close your own threads in "Legal". Bet that would get frustrating.

Something isn't adding up here. You are talking about conversations [about guns] you have had with people who are uneasy about guns...and now you seem to be telling us that there is no way we will ever have a conversation [about guns] with people who are uneasy about guns...

 

[Frank Ettin]

You think Suzi soccermom is just magically going to show up on your doorstep one day and say "Hey Mr. Ettin, I'm Suzi Soccermom from down the street that's really uneasy about guns. Teach me". ...

Actually, I've been an NRA certified instructor for about 15 years. I've helped introduce a lot of people, perhaps a thousand or more, to guns and shooting. I've helped teach complete novices the basics of wingshooting, and complete novices basic handgun shooting. For the last eight years or so I've been with a group of instructors putting on monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes.

Of course most of our students come to class because they really want to learn about guns. But more than a few have decided to try one of the classes because of a conversation with me (or my wife, who is an NRA certified shotgun instructor and who was one of the organizing coaches of the youth trapshooting group at our club). Often those folks were ambivalent about guns but were willing to give learning about guns a try.

 

[BigBore44]

No Warp. I'm saying that if Suzi is uneasy about guns. And uneasy about me because I have them, she obviously doesn't know me. So she's not going to just knock on my door one day for me to teach her. My interactions with her will most likely be if I go for a walk and see her and say hi. Be friendly. Or wave as I drive by if she's outside playing will her son Bily Batboy. Soccermom must be her maiden name or something. Idk. That "might" open a door of communication. But my other point is many people don't know their neighbors anymore. So I wouldn't even know she's uneasy about guns. So I can't even care to try to change her opinion. Only way I might know is if I found her on Facebook (which I don't have) and found out that way by reading her wall. Or is that Pinterest? See? Not my thing. Anyways.... IF I found out she was uneasy, and IF I ever got the opportunity to enlighten her, Suzi will definitely need to be sippy cupped over a period of time.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...And uneasy about me because I have them, she obviously doesn't know me. So she's not going to just knock on my door one day for me to teach her. My interactions with her will most likely be if I go for a walk and see her and say hi. Be friendly. Or wave as I drive by if she's outside playing will her son Bily Batboy.....

Somehow I seem to be having more, and more varied social interactions with people than you seem to. I find that strange, because I'm retired I'm not out working.

But somehow I seem to be meeting people, a wide variety of people, and having all sorts of conversations with them. I also try to keep up with current events and pay attention to things folks are saying in the news and in interviews. Sometime they say things about guns, their attitudes towards guns, and their attitudes towards people who have guns.

So from time to time, in my social interactions, my interests in guns and shooting and the shooting sports will come up. Some folks are appalled or dismayed, especial since they are surprised that I have guns -- I guess I don't seem like the type. Some are wary, but interested; and those are the ones I have an opportunity to reach.

 

[BigBore44]

Frank!! You're doing the lawyer thing again. You totally left out why I said she isn't going to show up. Which is very relevant. Instead you make an entire post about all the people you've introduced. And giving credit where it's due, it sounds like you've done a great thing. Honestly, if it's true. However, I can't testify that it wasn't an alternate reality. I wasn't there. And even admitted that the vast majority were already somewhat interested. But a few might not have been enthusiastic when you and your wife first had conversations with them. So my hats off.

But the reason she doesn't show up is the deal breaker to your post. However, if by some stroke of the strangest happenstance she does, and the reason for her visit is firearms related, I know what to do. And if it isn't firearms related, I'm not going to bring up firearms. I'm going to be as polite, kind, and helpful as I possibly can. So she builds a good rapport with me. The firearms discussion can come when she's ready. With just maybe a hint of coaxing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...You totally left out why I said she isn't going to show up....

Some people will always be completely unreachable. There's nothing we can do about them.

I think it helps set the stage for more effective RKBA advocacy if we start understanding things in cultural terms. Much of today's anti-gun sentiment is a byproduct of the continuing urbanization of America. California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, etc., are strongly anti-gun in part because the bulk of the political power in those States is in a few major cities. The rural parts of those States are much more pro-gun or neutral. And in States like Washington and Oregon which generally have decent gun laws, the urban centers area still hot beds of anti-gun sentiment.

People tend to look for support and validation from others who share their tastes and values; and they distinguish themselves, often in a denigrating manner, from those who do not. The city dweller likes to fancy himself sophisticated, socially liberal, well educated, urbane, fashionable, etc.; and he wants to associate with, and have his self image validated by, people he perceives are like him. And they set themselves apart from those they find different -- such as the type of person they believe usually owns guns.

Of course that's a gross oversimplification of a complex social phenomenon. But I think it works for this illustration.

To help make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments, we must challenge those anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that sophisticated, urbane perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns.

Each of us needs to help, by our manner of relating to the world, build a positive public image for gun owners. We need to be good ambassadors for gun owners, dispelling the negative stereotypes many members of the public have of gun owners, by being sober, rational, intelligent, responsible, and active participants in the affairs of our communities.

My wife and I have made a number of inroads with people we know, not by arguing but rather by forcing them to confront the fact that while we are gun owners and active participants in the gun world, we are otherwise much like them.