is there something like the best beginner percusion revolver

drobs said:

Start with an Uberti 1858 add a Pietta 1851 &/or 1860 down the line.
You can't just have one.

Fix for Colt open top cap jams:
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

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thanks i'll be doing that to both of my colts!

agent00

I have both a Colt Model 1860 and a Remington Model 1858. Love them both for their design features and the way they handle. Can't go wrong with either one or a Colt Model 1851 for that matter.

Dog Soldier

That's one awesome collection of Ruger Old Armys! Thanks for sharing!

bannockburn said:

Dog Soldier

That's one awesome collection of Ruger Old Armys! Thanks for sharing!

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I have added one more since this photo was taken. They are becoming more scrace every year. They were one of a kind and will never be produced by Ruger again. The ROA was designed for BP hunting. It is a powerful handgun loaded with 255 grs bullets and T-7.

I agree with 4v50Gary and many others here; the Ruger Old Army and the 1858 Remington are the best choices. Dog Soldier; the first BP gun I ever shot was my Dad's Old Army; I got a CVA Colonial Kit for Xmas that year, I liked shooting it so much. Very nice collection of Old Armys!

agent00 said:

.....Greetings from Austria

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Given your location I suspect that Pietta and Uberti would be much easier to find than the Ruger Old Army.

For your first black powder revolver I would also suggest the 1858 New Model Army by either Pietta or Uberti. A big reason is that they are a good durable firearm which is similar to modern revolvers. But a good second reason is that all the open top Colt guns I've seen from both makers does not do the arbor fitting correctly. It is left to us, the owners, to finish the job.

The issue centers around the fact that the wedge on the open top guns is supposed to lock the nose of the cylinder arbor against the front face of the hole in the barrel. But the arbors are always too short. So you end up being able to "adjust" the cylinder gap from locked solid to way too open all just by varying the pressure on the wedge. And that is simply not right.

So as nice as the open top guns can be I would suggest you side step this arbor issue at least for your first cap and ball revolver.

Fitting a packing shim to make the open tops go together correctly is not a huge job though. If you are a little handy with some basic metal working you can fix the issue easily enough. You don't need any machine tools. It can all be done with simple hand tools and a little skill and knowledge. And best of all if you botch the job up you only risk a penny worth of metal and can start again.

Many votes for the Remingtons but none from me.
My first BP revolvers were Remingtons, both Army and Navy. I was on the verge of quitting black powder when I bought my first 1860 because it was cheap. Sold the Remingtons and never looked back.
They simply do not fit my hands well. They were uncomfortable to shoot and fouled horribly. When I shot them I had to correct sight picture for every shot. With the Colt style, I find I can point and shoot quite nicely.
As sold as I am on the Colt copies, my current competition guns are the best black powder revolvers made ROAs. Built like tanks, no fouling worries, no cap worries and they are looking where I am on every shot.

Noz, I would like to add an ROA 5.5" to my collection. But the price on those has gone over the top. You are very correct. Shooting an ROA is trouble free and no suspicious little springs and screws.
Anyone who shoots the imports should contact Mike at Goons Guns. He worked over a Walker for me. It is the best money you will ever spend. Mike makes the reproductions work.

Spray Ballistol on the cylinder pin for worry free shooting of a Remington.

Thanks Dog Soldier!!

Mike

When my Remington's foul out the cylinder will turn fine for at least 24 to 36 shots, which is a little deceiving because the cylinder pin gets hard to remove after only about 12 to 18 shots. I must remember to clean the pin before the cylinder becomes difficult to turn. If I wait until the cylinder is hard to turn, it's already too late and it's next to impossible to remove the pin without water or something to help break up the fouling.

A Colt 1860, 1851, '61, or '62 are all going to be the same basic design, just in various size and caliber. A Remington in either .44 or .36, by either Pietta or Uberti, is going to be the same basic Remington design.

The Walker, Patterson, Dragoon. Ruger, etc are all going to be much different then any of the above and frankly, I would leave them to the more advanced. They are all great guns, and each has it fans, but the truth is if you learn a Ruger or Walker then THATS what you'll be learning... When you find a good a deal on an old '51 at the next yard sale you wont be at all familiar with it.

That said, I started with the Remington and still fell it is the best for a beginner. I personally started with a Pietta Remington. I still have it and always will, its a really GOOD gun. Looking back though, I wish I had chosen an Uberti Remington... Then my first would have been a GREAT gun.

Pietta Colts and Uberti Remingtons.... What more could one want?

My Remington Army was made during the Civil War Centennial 1961-1965. It has been rebuilt 2 times. It takes more than Ballistol to keep one ruining through a pistol match.

Not sure how much firing you do in a match but Ballistol works fine for me and up to 10 cylinders is common. But then I also have plenty of time which you may not.

And maybe it's the powder I use. Used to be just T7 but now is mostly Olde E (3F). I've not used standard Goex but those who've used both (and others excluding Swiss) claim it fouls less.

I started out with an 1851. Learning how to take the wedge out to break it down, and the proper use of the screw that holds it in place was important. With the 1858 Rem. It was a less complicated cylinder removal procedure.
Anything would be a good first BP pistol I suppose. Just do all the learning you can about it before you load it up and safely shoot it. Learn how to properly clean and maintain. For just plain "looks" and "feel" I happen to be partial to an 1860 design.

I just bought an Armi San Marcus Mason-Dixon Commemorative 1851 .36 caliber. It is unfired in the box. It seems to be OK. It has a Nickle plated Brass frame. It was made in 2002.
A fellow was closing out his gun show biz. I will likely sell it. I had to buy several guns to get what I wanted.

The 1847 Walker chambers hold more powder than the ROA. The problem with most reproduction percussion revolvers is the Arbor. They are not fitted as the originals.

Howdy

I had your same question almost 50 years ago.

My first Cap & Ball revolver was an Uberti brass framed 44 caliber Navy. Yeah, not authentic, but I did not know that then.

A few years later, after getting lots of cap jams, I bought a EuroArms (now out of business) Remington 1858.

All the advantages of the 1858 design are valid. Solid frame, so no wedge to mess around with and stronger, because of the solid frame.

Yes, the grip shape of the 1858 Remington is different than the grip of the Colt style C&B revolvers. There is less space between the trigger guard and the grip, so with heavy recoiling cartridge loads I kept getting my knuckle whacked by the trigger guard, but that is with cartridges, and that is a different story.

The disadvantage of the 1858 Remington, only briefly touched on in this thread, is the fact that the cylinder of the 1858 Remington binds up more quickly than the cylinder of Colt style revolvers.

This is due to a design flaw which Remington later corrected with its cartridge revolvers.

Neither the Colt style C&B revolvers, nor the Remington has a bushing on the front of the cylinder. The purpose of a cylinder bushing is to prevent fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap from being deposited onto the the cylinder pin/arbor. Fouling blasted out of the b/c gap at high speed gets deposited onto the cylinder pin or arbor. As the cylinder turns, some of this fouling works its way down between the cylinder pin and the cylinder. This is the main cause of binding with Black Powder revolvers. Colt and other manufacturers solved this problem with their cartridge revolvers by adding a bushing at the front of the cylinder. The bushing shields the cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the b/c gap.

This photo illustrates the problem. There is no bushing on the front of either the Colt or the Remington cylinder, they are both flat faced. However in my experience the Colt design will keep running longer than the Remington design without binding for two reasons. The cylinder arbor is larger in diameter on the Colt design, which spreads the fouling out over a larger surface area. Probably more important, the Colt arbor has a helical groove running around it. The purpose of the groove is to provide clearance for any fouling that has worked its way down between the arbor and the cylinder. You will notice I have cut some grooves into the cylinder pin on this Remington, in an attempt to imitate the helical groove on the Colt style revolver. The idea was to slather the grooves with Bore Butter to keep the Remington rolling longer. Because the grooves were crudely cut with a file and a drill press, because there are not very many of them, and because they are not very deep, they did not help much.






So there you have it, the old Colt vs Remington quandary. In my not so humble opinion, the Remington is a better all round design, except for the binding problem. Slathering the Remington cylinder pin with Ballistol is a good workaround. A better work around would be adding a bushing to the front of the cylinder and cutting a relief for it in the frame. Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who does that anymore.

The Ruger Old Army has been out of production for a number of years now, so they are only available used, and the price of them keeps going up.

What ever model you decide to buy, do not cheap out and buy a brass frame. The frame can stretch from heavy loads, I have experience with this. Do yourself a favor and buy a revolver with a steel frame.

Regarding target sights, I prefer my revolvers to look authentic, so I would not dream of buying a Remmie with target sights.

But that's just me.

agent00 said:

Yes I know that the colt walker can hold the most powder,and is the most powerful percusion revolver of the colt Series, but I was not sure it is safe to use the maximum charge in an modern Replica in a modern Reproduction.

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Howdy Again

Although the iron (yes, iron) cylinders of the original Walker Colts were prone to blow up because of the huge powder charges they could hold, this is not a problem with the modern reproductions. They are made of much better steel than was available with the originals. Fill them up all you want with powder, although you may not like the recoil.

You can not get enough powder in a modern Walker to blow the chambers. Back in the day the old iron cylinders did blow out. The Rangers were issued "Picketts" pointed cylindrical bullets. It was faster to load these point first in the chambers. It ran the pressures up too high.

bannockburn said:

agent00

I have both a Colt Model 1860 and a Remington Model 1858. Love them both for their design features and the way they handle. Can't go wrong with either one or a Colt Model 1851 for that matter.

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I think they used one tree for all the grips on the 3rd Generation 1860 Colts. Mine and every other one I've seen have the same grain in them!

Like 4v50 Gary , I also started with a SS ROA. It was close to what I was used to shooting. The Ruger
Blackhawk and RedHawks. Easy clean up. Easy assembly after you've done it a couple of times. WFH