Folding stock and legal length

I thought 'detachable' meant it came off, like the shoulder stocks for pistols.


Like your idea.

Not sure if I like the idea of the butt of the stock being in front of the muzzle when folded though.



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Neat idea----our girls have had Crickets for years.

Detachable as in removable. That's different than foldable.

Since your stock appears to be attached to the firearm, you're fine as long as the overall length is 26" unfolded. Or at least federally.

This is my understanding, which I hope someone will correct if I missed a nuance:

If you are the original manufacturer, a rifle must measure 26"+ overall with the stock fully extended, "as the gun leaves the factory".

If you are modifying a rifle it must measure at least the shorter of "the length it was when it left the factory" or 26"+ overall in the shortest "working" configuration. A rifle that left the factory 30.5" long (like the Crickett) can only be shortened to 26.1" in its shortest working configuration, but a factory M1 Carbine Paratrooper that started out 25.75" is OK as long as it doesn't get any shorter. That's why if you are adding a folding stock to an existing gun you need to keep the shortest folded-but-working length over 26", even though you can buy a factory new Kel-Tec CMR-30 that collapses down to 22 inches.


As I read it, the stock you are describing would be legal for Crickett to use on new guns, but not for you to add as a retrofit.

DeoreDX, I think you have a very elegant solution to the problem of making a collapsible rifle.

As to the legalities, I would urge you to spend the money and consult with an attorney who has some familiarity with firearms laws (both Federal and in your state) about whether your design meets the requirements of the statute and regulations.

The way I look at it is that while your design may look okay to us as technicians, we are mere laymen when it comes to the law and since this is an area where a mistake can cost 1) you years in jail, 2) forfeiture of your 2A rights, and 3) much of your wealth mounting a defense, what an attorney is going to charge you up front to make sure everything is done properly is "cheap insurance".

Where did you find this language about a stock not being readily detachable? It is not in 27 CFR 179.11. I did a little Googling and it seems this comment originated on James Bardwell's now defunct web page and has been repeated on a few forums. This would seem to fly in the face of many take down "survival" type rifles as well as some custom take down stocks for the Cricket itself!

The only thing I can find from the ATF is a comment in the ATF Identification Manual that says the Marble Game Getter 18" version is Non-NFA as long as the stock has not been removed. This appears to be because it has a functioning pistol grip without the stock, which your design does not have.


Mike

PS. Just in terms of features and quality, have you considered the Savage Rascal instead?

Ed Ames said:

This is my understanding, which I hope someone will correct if I missed a nuance:

If you are the original manufacturer, a rifle must measure 26"+ overall with the stock fully extended, "as the gun leaves the factory".

If you are modifying a rifle it must measure at least the shorter of "the length it was when it left the factory" or 26"+ overall in the shortest "working" configuration. A rifle that left the factory 30.5" long (like the Crickett) can only be shortened to 26.1" in its shortest working configuration, but a factory M1 Carbine Paratrooper that started out 25.75" is OK as long as it doesn't get any shorter. That's why if you are adding a folding stock to an existing gun you need to keep the shortest folded-but-working length over 26", even though you can buy a factory new Kel-Tec CMR-30 that collapses down to 22 inches.


As I read it, the stock you are describing would be legal for Crickett to use on new guns, but not for you to add as a retrofit.

Click to expand...

Are you describing the law of a particular state?

Mike

Arizona_Mike said:

Are you describing the law of a particular state?

Mike

Click to expand...

Good question. As I said, I'd appreciate more accurate info. I'd like to find that what I referenced is BS actually. It is a fairly common interpretation.

As far as I'm able to tell, the basis for the concern is that the NFA says that a "weapon made from a rifle" is measured according to this: "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore." Nothing about extended or collapsed.

The only easily found official position in measuring a folding stock is this: "NOTE: One version of the Marble’s Game Getter was produced with 18-inch barrels and a folding shoulder stock. This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. "

That, by the way, addresses what you posted earlier about that gun. It isn't that it has a pistol grip, but that the overall length without the stock is less than 26".

I think people are reading the "as manufactured" to mean that it originally came that way, because the law is so picky about "made or remade" type wording in most places.

I disagree. A takedown rifle or disassembled or broken rifle is not an NFA weapon. The Game Getter is functional without the stick due to the pistol grip.
The AR7 survival rifle with 16" BBL is about 21" before you put the stock on. There is no requirement to attach the stock before the barrel.

Mike

Arizona_Mike said:

I disagree. A takedown rifle or disassembled or broken rifle is not an NFA weapon. The Game Getter is functional without the stick due to the pistol grip.
The AR7 survival rifle with 16" BBL is about 21" before you put the stock on. There is no requirement to attach the stock before the barrel.

Click to expand...

Guns are evaluated in "as intended to fire" configuration. A barreled receiver with the stock removed is not an assembled firearm and not intended to be fired that way.

Adding a pistol grip does finish it into a firearm that is intended to be fired in that configuration, but so would adding a bullpup stock, or in some cases adding a short child's size stock. If the finished length in "intended to fire" configuration is under 26" it runs into NFA territory.

So in one sense it is the fact that it has a pistol grip, but in another sense it isn't because a non-pistol grip configuration that came in under the length limit would run afoul of the same law.

I found one of many letters with a little googling:



Mike

Cool. Thanks Mike.

So far people are discussing federal law, but it's also possible that state law matters. For example, here's a thread quoting a Michigan atty general's opinion that the folded length matters, if operable when folded:

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruge...-overall-length-mini-butler-creek-folder.html

Post #5 links the actual opinion:
http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

So once you figure out the federal requirements, don't ignore your state laws (and if you travel, those states as well).

(I don't see why a rifle with folded length<26 inch wouldn't match the Michigan definition of SBR even if not operable when folded, but IANAL, and the atty general is )

Calif DOJ requires the length to be measured with the stock folded or collapsed to it's shortest operable configuration ...

IF you might prefer a semi auto... A SIG BRACE with or without folding mechanism on a 22 Charger "10/22 Pistol" "Eliminates length limits" Copper Custom https://coppercustom.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1046 makes that.... and sells completed backpacker pistols or the parts.... I would NOT prefer the removable barrel on the Ruger... The fixed barrel version is more accurate and more reliable. IF I wanted a take down Charger... I would call on AGP Rifle... Their Papoose or UZI style barrel retention nut is a much more solid design. http://agparms.com/10-22/ http://agparms.com/agp-arms-10-22-takedown-conversion/

Chiappa Little Badger is factory threaded 1/2x28 .. 17" to 18" long folded... Comes with peep sights and weighs about 3 pounds. Under $ 250...ready to go. I have shot one of these... It makes a great truck gun and the peep sights do work very well. The sights remind me of M1 carbine sights. Quad rail for laser, scope and coon light is factory installed.

Savage Rascal or Chiappa folding 22 both have a better trigger compared to Cricket... and both are 31" long with 16" barrels... and both weigh in at 3 pounds or less. Cricket, Savage Rascal, and Chiappa are all light, compact, and accurate... I just prefer not to have a way too heavy trigger that feels like it is full of sand {even when clean and oiled}... The 5 Cricket rifles I have had hands on with...all had horrible triggers... Savage Rascal and surprisingly Chiappa folding rifle do have decent triggers... If you want a budget minded 22 compact single shot... I recommend that you Consider Savage Rascal or Chiappa Little Badger. Little Badger comes with a carry pouch.