What can handle .45 Super?

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NeedsMoreMillimeters

NeedsMoreMillimeters

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Ok, so recently, I've become convinced that .45ACP is a fogey round (mainly because of it's anemic pressure), and that .45 Super is the update we need, but don't deserve (and essentially what JMB would have designed if he was working in 2011 instead of 1911) :uhoh:.

That said, besides a full steel 1911, what can handle a diet of .45 Super "stock": by that I mean changing out a recoil spring or adding a plastic buffer, etc, is OK, but a special slide, or barrel porting, etc is a no-no. Of course it will inevitably increase wear, but I'm thinking more along the lines of statistically shorter round-count life, and not a krack or kaboom after 10 mags. Thoughts?
 
An interesting caliber. I always felt more attracted to the 10mm, which can accomplish about the same energy in a 1911, at standard pressures.
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Ok, so recently, I've become convinced that .45ACP is a fogey round (mainly because of it's anemic pressure), and that .45 Super is the update we need, but don't deserve (and essentially what JMB would have designed if he was working in 2011 instead of 1911) :uhoh:.

That said, besides a full steel 1911, what can handle a diet of .45 Super "stock": by that I mean changing out a recoil spring or adding a plastic buffer, etc, is OK, but a special slide, or barrel porting, etc is a no-no. Of course it will inevitably increase wear, but I'm thinking more along the lines of statistically shorter round-count life, and not a krack or kaboom after 10 mags. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Before getting into this topic any further I'd like to know: (1) Exactly 'What ' is wrong with 45 ACP pressure? (2) 'What ', again, is this 45 Super cartridge supposed to be good (or 'less foggy') for? (3) Finally, 'What' do you want to do with 45 Super that you're apparently reluctant to attempt with 45 ACP?

I shoot both calibers. One thing I would NEVER want to do is to try to successfully shoot an IDPA/USPSA combat pistol course with a 45 Super — Which, as far as I'm concerned, is roughly the same thing as attempting to shoot a winning PPC course-of-fire with a 44 Magnum instead of the usual 38 Special.

(HINT: Dumb idea!)

My converted Glock Model 21 ~
Glock_Model_21,__22.jpg
 
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there is always someone who thinks they have a better idea. personally, I can't see any real benefit to the 45 super idea over a 10 mm.

and using it for competition purposes seems counterproductive, unless there is a competition where overkill is required. :)
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Ok, so recently, I've become convinced that .45ACP is a fogey round (mainly because of it's anemic pressure)
Click to expand...
yeah
Why would you want an easy and forgiving cartridge to reload, with virtually infinite case life, in a pistol that will last tens of thousands of rounds and easy follow up shots?
........and then there's the legendary lack of stopping power. o_O
 
I don't think anyone is really under the illusion that .45 Super is a good plinking, competition, or budget reloading round. The .45 Super is designed along the same philosophy as the 10mm as mentioned: to create near magnum energy in a semi-auto platform. This puts it in a niche to use as a hunting or outdoorsman's backup gun role. So yeah, I wouldn't buy it to replace my target 9mm but maybe to replace my magnum revolver.

The general consensus is that the .45 Super can easily be converted to run in the HK USP, Springfield XD, and the Glock with a new barrel.

With pressures not being absurd in .45 Super, I would also venture that guns that have a sibling chambered in 10mm would be OK, like the SIG P220 or any flavor of quality steel 1911 (Maybe even the Witness series, but I wouldn't recommend it). I would also like to try out an old steel Smith 3rd gen or even the Ruger guns like the P90, SR45, or Ruger American Pistol as they are advertised as "being able to handle +P for the lifetime of the gun" and are generally overbuilt. Granted, there's risk involved and I would be nervous to try.

Either way, I am considering converting my XD45 into .45 Super since I already own it and wouldn't mind a nice auto woods gun.
 
Do you reload? I just checked on ammoseek.com and there are 2 vendors with ammo in stock. One is priced at $.91 per round and the other is over $2.00 per round.
 
Torian said:
An interesting caliber. I always felt more attracted to the 10mm, which can accomplish about the same energy in a 1911, at standard pressures.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. 10mm really is a great round for giving magnum performance in an autoloader, plus you get more capacity then .45. It would be my go to, except for one issue - ammo availability/compatibility. I don't really spend thou$ands on guns, so anything I do own for carry or practice needs to widely available. I don't shoot revolvers, so I would only consider owning a handgun in 9/.40/.45 (and maybe .357 Sig). 10mm is an excellent round, but if I buy guns for it, put my practice toward it, etc I've put myself at a disadvantage - if things go south in a big way, ammo will be very hard to come by. With .45 Super, I can get that near magnum performance, and also feed it .45ACP if thats all that's on hand.

Glock Doctor said:
Before getting into this topic any further I'd like to know: (1) Exactly 'What ' is wrong with 45 ACP pressure? (2) 'What ', again, is this 45 Super cartridge supposed to be good (or 'less foggy') for? (3) Finally, 'What' do you want to do with 45 Super that you're apparently reluctant to attempt with 45 ACP?
Click to expand...

Nothing is "wrong" with .45 ACP (at least as far a pistol cartridges go), but it is not in the same league as the other common ones in terms of maximizing performance. (For semi-autos) caliber choice is some combination of bullet size/weight X speed X magazine capacity = effectiveness (I'm excluding recoil here, because that is widely variable depending on the ergonomics of the gun and the skill of the shooter). Different rounds have different stats, but within in a reasonable range (9mm-.45) you should be able to make trade offs, but still get a similar overall "value" of effectiveness (yes, this is a little abstract, but when you really want to find the most lethal caliber for a purpose, there really isn't a better way to compare them). 45ACP kind of lags behind other common rounds (9mm, .40, .357 Sig, 10MM) a bit, because it is pretty underpowered for its given size and case volume (this is simply a byproduct of the era it was deigned in), thus it's overall "effectiveness" matrix (considering the factors I listed) is lower. 45 Super is really just .45ACP updated with modern materials and methods. The fact that you can get much higher performance out of the round, without changing the external dimensions at all (FYI for those you don't .45 Super and ACP are identically sized) or making it less safe proves that. It's .45 ACP if it was designed in 2011 instead of 1911

stoky said:
yeah
Why would you want an easy and forgiving cartridge to reload, with virtually infinite case life, in a pistol that will last tens of thousands of rounds and easy follow up shots?
........and then there's the legendary lack of stopping power. o_O
Click to expand...

Valid points, but I don't reload, so it's not important for me. Also, .45 Super isn't any harder on a pistol than 10mm (less so in fact), so a gun that could handle it would last plenty long, assuming you change out the requisite part at proper intervals (which I already assume is a given for any self-defense handgun).

Also, sorry, but "stopping power" is a myth. Pretty much any round you shoot out of a handgun is relatively bad at incapacitating people and .45 is no magic exception, it's just a different kind of compromise (like all round): https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/ (TL;DR cop shoots bg with 14 rounds of .45ACP, including 6 to vital organs. He doesn't go down till he gets two in the brain. Autopsy report shows he wasn't under the effects of any drugs or mentally ill).
 
"The 10mm is a good round in its own right but it'll never be a .45." - Captain Obvious

Energy doesn't make up for diameter and mass, ever but especially in handguns.


NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Also, sorry, but "stopping power" is a myth.
Click to expand...
No, "knockdown power" is a myth. Two legged threats are stopped, just as dangerous critters are also stopped. Some cartridges are better at it than others.
 
CraigC said:
"The 10mm is a good round in its own right but it'll never be a .45." - Captain Obvious

Energy doesn't make up for diameter and mass, ever but especially in handguns.
Click to expand...

I think that all the major militaries of the world, which have switched to small caliber, high-velocity rounds (including the Russians and Chinese who ditched their heavier and fatter bullets despite massive stocks and manufacturing base), would like to have a word with you. Except in special circumstances (read: suppressor use) 10mm is measurable more terminally effective than .45ACP. There is a reason you don't see hunting handguns marketed in .45, but see many in 10mm

CraigC said:
No, "knockdown power" is a myth. Two legged threats are stopped, just as dangerous critters are also stopped. Some cartridges are better at it than others.
Click to expand...

Well, in truth, both are myths. The idea that any of the standard semi-auto handgun rounds will reliably incapacitate a man in one shot (CNS hits excluded) has been thoroughly disproven. I agree that in a more general sense stopping power can be discussed, but, in my experience, 99% of the time I hear guys talk about .45 "stopping power" the mean the same thing as "knockdown power".
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
I don't shoot revolvers, so I would only consider owning a handgun in 9/.40/.45 (and maybe .357 Sig).
Click to expand...
Since you're only interested in an auto-loader, not an auto-loader or a revolver I'm moving this to the auto-loaders forum where you'll get more specific replies.
 
CraigC said:
"The 10mm is a good round in its own right but it'll never be a .45." - Captain Obvious

Energy doesn't make up for diameter and mass, ever but especially in handguns.



No, "knockdown power" is a myth. Two legged threats are stopped, just as dangerous critters are also stopped. Some cartridges are better at it than others.
Click to expand...

In that case, my new carry is now a .50 AE Desert Eagle.
 
Finally, 'What' do you want to do with 45 Super that you're apparently reluctant to attempt with 45 ACP?
I shoot both calibers.
Click to expand...
Good question. I have them both also but rarely use the Super. No reason to.
I do want to point out that there is no "both calibers"; they are the same caliber
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Ok, so recently, I've become convinced that .45ACP is a fogey round (mainly because of it's anemic pressure), and that .45 Super is the update we need, but don't deserve (and essentially what JMB would have designed if he was working in 2011 instead of 1911) :uhoh:.

That said, besides a full steel 1911, what can handle a diet of .45 Super "stock": by that I mean changing out a recoil spring or adding a plastic buffer, etc, is OK, but a special slide, or barrel porting, etc is a no-no. Of course it will inevitably increase wear, but I'm thinking more along the lines of statistically shorter round-count life, and not a krack or kaboom after 10 mags. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The owners of the concept, Ace, pressured Wolff into dropping the 30# 10MM spring for the M1911 platforms many years ago to thwart what you are suggesting.
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
.......
Nothing is "wrong" with .45 ACP (at least as far a pistol cartridges go), but it is not in the same league as the other common ones in terms of maximizing performance.

(For semi-autos) caliber choice is some combination of bullet size/weight X speed X magazine capacity = effectiveness (I'm excluding recoil here, because that is widely variable depending on the ergonomics of the gun and the skill of the shooter).

Different rounds have different stats, but within in a reasonable range (9mm-.45) you should be able to make trade offs, but still get a similar overall "value" of effectiveness (yes, this is a little abstract, but when you really want to find the most lethal caliber for a purpose, there really isn't a better way to compare them).

45ACP kind of lags behind other common rounds (9mm, .40, .357 Sig, 10MM) a bit, because it is pretty underpowered for its given size and case volume (this is simply a byproduct of the era it was deigned in), thus it's overall "effectiveness" matrix (considering the factors I listed) is lower. 45 Super is really just .45ACP updated with modern materials and methods. The fact that you can get much higher performance out of the round, without changing the external dimensions at all (FYI for those you don't .45 Super and ACP are identically sized) or making it less safe proves that. It's .45 ACP if it was designed in 2011 instead of 1911.
Click to expand...

You still haven't told me what it is that you're looking for, or what it is that you're trying to achieve? Now, we seem to have entered the intellectual netherworld of 'Well, it sure looks good on paper', or 'It would be nice, if ....... .'

The Civil War was fought with larger, heavier, slower moving, lead bullets. The stats were (and still are) not all that impressive; however, look at the human carnage those big heavy slow-moving Minié balls wrought upon both sides!

I tried to point out that I shoot both 45 ACP, and 45 Super; and, you can trust me on this: 45 Super is NOT a generally useful caliber for CQB pistol combat. That's all I'm saying!
 
NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
I think that all the major militaries of the world, which have switched to small caliber, high-velocity rounds (including the Russians and Chinese who ditched their heavier and fatter bullets despite massive stocks and manufacturing base), would like to have a word with you.
Click to expand...
Military use with hardball is completely and utterly irrelevant. In that example, they are all pretty equally dismal.


NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Except in special circumstances (read: suppressor use) 10mm is measurable more terminally effective than .45ACP.
Click to expand...
Measurably in what way? Maybe on paper, to those who have never drawn blood with a handgun.


NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
There is a reason you don't see hunting handguns marketed in .45, but see many in 10mm.
Click to expand...
Evidence of absence... and all that. Is that really true? If it is, it's mainly because it's all the cartridge is good for and it has limited application even in hunting. But how much difference is there between a Glock 20 and a 21? A 5" 1911 with adjustable sights in either chambering?


NeedsMoreMillimeters said:
Well, in truth, both are myths. The idea that any of the standard semi-auto handgun rounds will reliably incapacitate a man in one shot (CNS hits excluded) has been thoroughly disproven. I agree that in a more general sense stopping power can be discussed, but, in my experience, 99% of the time I hear guys talk about .45 "stopping power" the mean the same thing as "knockdown power".
Click to expand...
No, it isn't. You need to think deeper, to its logical conclusion. This whole line of thought is riddled with contradictions. If stopping power is a myth, then there would be no terminal difference between a .25ACP and a .50AE. Or handguns versus rifles. We all know that's absurd. How can we believe that a more powerful rifle is more effective but not a more powerful handgun? So if the size of the hole matters, then the size of the bullet has to matter. Especially in handguns, mass and diameter play a MUCH larger role than velocity.

Further, who says it has to be one shot? Or instant? So because an assailant is not stopped with one shot, the cartridge is a failure? Or the size of the hole that shot made is somehow irrelevant? Nonsense. We need to move away from this crap about energy and the whole notion of one shot stops.There is no guarantee with anything. Bigger bullets that create larger wounds and greater tissue destruction simply improve the odds of stopping the assailant more quickly.
 
I suppose there are niches to be (satisfyingly) filled by the .45 Super.
Maybe handgun hunting, for folks that don't like big bore revolvers.
Or some sort of eclectic collection, with a Desert Eagle .50 AE and a Bren Ten.
 
That said, besides a full steel 1911, what can handle a diet of .45 Super "stock": by that I mean changing out a recoil spring or adding a plastic buffer, etc, is OK, but a special slide, or barrel porting, etc is a no-no. Of course it will inevitably increase wear, but I'm thinking more along the lines of statistically shorter round-count life, and not a krack or kaboom after 10 mags. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I also find the 45 Super interesting. A few years ago I bought a new Blackhawk Convertible 45 and worked up some loads for the 45 ACP cylinder with AA#9 that performed very well. Same ammo in a Hi Point carbine got over 1300 FPS with 230 grain HP/XTP's but that is a different story.

I picked up a S&W 4506 a couple years ago and researching it found info saying it can handle Super loads with a change of recoil spring. Not sure what that means as my understanding is there is no SAMMI spec for 45 Super. Maybe I am wrong there or that has changed since then.
 
I don't get from the OP, exactly what you're trying to accomplish, but the terminal ballistics of .45+P are pretty awesome, 15 inches of penetration and expansion to .70 inches for the Ranger "T" Series. The H&K MK23 is designed to fire the .45+P day in and day out.
 
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