Why is the 45-70 so popular?

I think it's because the cartridge matches the capabilities of its rifle well. A 45-70 still has a lot of value as a huge short-range thumper, and if you could design an ideal 45-70 rifle, it would probably end up looking like a Guide Gun.

They make quite a team, and that's why they're still relevant among the flood of ARs and plastic wunder-bolts.

salt&battery said:

Pretty sure 444 uses pistol bullets with BC like a badminton birdie limiting range. 45/70 uses longer rifle bullets

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That's one of the main reasons I got rid of the 444 I had. I didn't think things through very well when I bought it. I had it in my head that a 444 Marlin would be a good platform for launching the 300gr SWCs that I'd cast for my .44 Magnum handguns. I didn't stop to think that the darned things would be too long to work through the 444 Marlins action unless I seated them way too deep.

Varminterror said:

I would tend to say the .45-70 remains to be popular because it was wrapped in the Marlin 1895

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Agreed. A good looking, fast handling, accurate repeater firing a sledgehammer cartridge that can take any terrestrial animal on the planet will always have broad appeal.

ohihunter2014 said:

Not to sound like a jerk but I think most like them because its a cannon. everyone thinks its a long range, knock the game on its butt cannon.

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Lol, that is why I love my 50-110. Never shot a 45-70

A lot of the same reasons the 45acp is still popular. I could name them, but everyone knows them. Oh, OK. First, it is nostalgic, easy to reload, flexible, easy on guns, fun and it's a 45. Many more reason too.

I have a ruger number 1 in 458 win mag. It is 1/2" longer than the 45-70 and uses a lot of the same bullets, like the 405g lead bullets that are common. Downloaded to 1400-1500 fps it's a lot of fun banging steel.

Big bores are fun.

I bought mine when I was working in Alaska. 405 grain jacketed solids or 460 grain HCLFN will penetrate and break bone like a champ.

I have the Marlin Guide Gun and I think (as was mentioned earlier in the thread) one of the main reasons I bought one is because I like the gun itself. It is a very handy little carbine that feels good in the hand and looks good as well. As has been mentioned, I do most of my shooting with cast bullets and pistol powders. With these loads, recoil is minimal. I personally have no reason to shoot any max loads although I have done so in the past. Factory .45-70s in my gun are not all that bad, but obviously I don't shoot all that many of them.

As far as the trajectory goes.......... I am not a big hunter. I occasionally hunt and have most of my life, but I sometimes go years without hunting. I have taken a couple elk and some deer over the years and I never shot a big game animal any further than 50 yards or maybe a little further. This included hunts in Arizona, Colorado, and Nevada. So, although I didn't use a .45-70 at the time, it would have been more than adequate for any shot I ever took at a big game animal. One thing that really brought the .45-70 into massive popularity here where I live now in Ohio is that a couple years ago, some centerfire rifles were legalized for whitetail deer hunting. For many years (longer than I have been alive) you could only use shotgun slugs or muzzleloaders. When this new law passed, .45-70s were flying off the shelves and most of the people I know have bought one including me. Here in Ohio, I can hunt on my own land and have a tree stand set up. I would guess that the furthest possible shot I got make from my stand MIGHT be 50 yards. I suppose you use the appropriate tool for the job at hand (assuming you have options available) and for me, the .45-70 is totally appropriate for the ranges I am shooting in the field.

One little commentary as far as ammo goes: along with the popularity of the .45-70 here in the local area are all the stories of using absolute max loads or factory ammo with some kind of cutting edge bullet design. Loads that would stop a charging rino or drop an elephant in it's tracks..........yet these guys are using these rifles to shoot whitetail deer. This is getting sort of ridiculous to me and got me thinking about the very light, powder puff loads I am using for plinking. Those loads I am using for plinking exceed what you would be getting out of a .44 magnum handgun (bigger bullet at a velocity approx. equal to big bullets in a .44 mag). Yet these loads in today's world are considered plinking loads and probably would not be taken seriously as a load to shoot a 150 pound whitetail deer And this gets into the brief mention of the .444 Marlin. I am sure it wouldn't surprise you to learn that I have owned one of those for years. Shooting a round that fires a .429 bullet at SUBSTANTIALLY higher velocity than a .44 mag probably isn't enough for deer.............

Mosin Bubba said:

I think it's because the cartridge matches the capabilities of its rifle well. A 45-70 still has a lot of value as a huge short-range thumper, and if you could design an ideal 45-70 rifle, it would probably end up looking like a Guide Gun.

They make quite a team, and that's why they're still relevant among the flood of ARs and plastic wunder-bolts.

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Only mine would be pump, and since i cant get that i have a socom

he 45-70 propels enough bullet to shoot through any game native to North America at any reasonable distance. It was responsible for the near extinction of the bison.

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This myth is part of the reason it is popular, people think they are getting a round with historical significance.. The 45-70 was introduced in 1873. The majority of the bison were dead prior to the civil war which started in 1861. Laws were passed in 1874 and 1875 banning bison hunting to preserve the handful left. The 45-70 in its original loading was considered too weak for anything larger than deer, or indians. By the 1890's the 45-70 was all but dead. The 30-30 introduced in 1895 was considered far more powerful at the time. The round lay basically dormant and rarely used for about 80 years before being revived in the early 1970's by Marlin and the new production 1895 rifle. Advertising at the time was quite colorful, hinting that the round had done a lot more than it had actually done historically. Helping create the legend, or myth.

Of course modern loadings make the round a legitimate large game round. But at the cost of excessive recoil. A 30-06 class cartridge will take any game animal you can take with the hottest 45-70 loadings, but with half the recoil.

I've owned 3 different 45-70's going back to one of the 1973 Marlins. After realizing the real history and the fact that recoil was way out of proportion to performance I eventually sold all 3. From a historical perspective the 30-30 has more history on it's side. The 45-70 was used as a military cartridge for only about 20 years, and wasn't particularly successful. Custer's men were some of the first to use it, and it didn't perform well.

I bought mine:
1. I wanted a short range rifle to defend against dangerous game and didn't want an 870 (for that purpose).
2. Nostalgia is obviously a factor.
3. Levergun. Nuff' said.
4. A friend had a Trapdoor and another a #1. Shooting the 3 in one afternoon was as fun as shooting gets.
5. It is THE brushgun (all debating aside). When in the woods, it is a tremendous gun up to 75 yards depending on the load for anything in NA.
6. Did I mention nostalgia?
7. The recoil is pleasant to pleasantly hard: it is good for a shooter who doesn't have a lot of experience but some and wants to try out the AR of the 19th Century.

YMMV
Enjoy,
Greg

salt&battery said:

Pretty sure 444 uses pistol bullets with BC like a badminton birdie limiting range. 45/70 uses longer rifle bullets

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Mine is a single shot so I am not limited by magazine length. I shoot a 310 grain long flat nose hard cast in mine.

Here is the way I see it with the big straight wall cartridges as hunting cartridges. For me to be comfortable with a deer rifle I want to be able to put a first shot cold bore bullet in a 3-4" circle at whatever range I intend to shoot it. Yes a 45-70 will do that to a great distance by a skilled shooter and god knows if you drive a 350 grain 45 caliber bullet through the boiler room at basically any distance, you are going to have one dead critter. But in the instance of my 444 shooting 310 grain hardcast at 2200 fps, if I zero it at 125 yards it will drop by about 8 inches to 200 yards. So you will just hit the brisket if you don't compensate for that. From 200 to 225 it drops another 4 inches. I know the deer around me don't wait for rangefinders and I sure can't tell the difference between 200 and 225 yards, so I can only comfortably shoot at a deer that I know darn sure is within 150 yards or so. Where I hunt thats typically not a problem as most deer are shot from 50-100. If its like that where you hunt then I think a big bore would be a perfectly suitible choice. If you get shots from 150-250 yards, well I think your better served with a 270. I can zero a 270 to hold in a 4 inch circle from 10-200 yards with no holdover and just a couple inches holdover needed to 250. If your able to reliably put a 45-70 into a 4" target out to 250 first time every time then I seriously applaud your abilities as a shooter, your better than me!

Bull Nutria said:

great posts fellas, I understand now. Nostalgia, history,flexibility, big bore, big lead slug, big recoil-- I get it!!

However the 45-70 is not for me. I like my 30.06, .35 Whelen, 223 CZ bolt rifle and my favorite 7mm08!
Bull

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It's partially the history and partially the fun. Dropping that big old shell into the chamber of my Sharps or the trapdoor carbine is just "cool"...
Loading the shells with black powder just adds to the ambiance.

someguy2800 said:

Mine is a single shot so I am not limited by magazine length. I shoot a 310 grain long flat nose hard cast in mine.

Here is the way I see it with the big straight wall cartridges as hunting cartridges. For me to be comfortable with a deer rifle I want to be able to put a first shot cold bore bullet in a 3-4" circle at whatever range I intend to shoot it. Yes a 45-70 will do that to a great distance by a skilled shooter and god knows if you drive a 350 grain 45 caliber bullet through the boiler room at basically any distance, you are going to have one dead critter. But in the instance of my 444 shooting 310 grain hardcast at 2200 fps, if I zero it at 125 yards it will drop by about 8 inches to 200 yards. So you will just hit the brisket if you don't compensate for that. From 200 to 225 it drops another 4 inches. I know the deer around me don't wait for rangefinders and I sure can't tell the difference between 200 and 225 yards, so I can only comfortably shoot at a deer that I know darn sure is within 150 yards or so. Where I hunt thats typically not a problem as most deer are shot from 50-100. If its like that where you hunt then I think a big bore would be a perfectly suitible choice. If you get shots from 150-250 yards, well I think your better served with a 270. I can zero a 270 to hold in a 4 inch circle from 10-200 yards with no holdover and just a couple inches holdover needed to 250. If your able to reliably put a 45-70 into a 4" target out to 250 first time every time then I seriously applaud your abilities as a shooter, your better than me!

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not a bad bullet flight with your cast bullet. I hope you do not have an H&R single shot. that would kick like a mule

My 45-70 is a home made copy of a rolling block and it weighs 11 pounds with its 32"octagon barrel. Even with planet wrecker loads and its steel buttplate ; it kicks about like a 12 gauge with duck loads. Recoil is definitely tamed by more weight. If your first experience with a 45-70 included a Ruger #3....well...great gun, but way to little weight for the power of the cartridge.

jmr40 said:

This myth is part of the reason it is popular, people think they are getting a round with historical significance.. The 45-70 was introduced in 1873. The majority of the bison were dead prior to the civil war which started in 1861.

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Are you sure of your dates? My research shows the slaughter of the American bison began in earnest around 1868 and was pretty much completed be 1881-82,, with over 31,000,000 animals being killed. And it is a matter of historical fact that the 45-70 did its share of the killing. At typical buffalo hunting ranges, under 150 yards, a 45-70 bullet would (and still will) go entirely through a buffalo and sail off into the wild blue yonder.. So...how much power do you need??? This, too, is fact. Clint Smith told me years ago that he would have to choose his shots carefully when he and Venturino hunted buffalo; to be sure that another animal was not behind the first. He knew his bullet would not stay inside the animal he shot. He was using a 45-70, with straight black powder and 500 gr. lead bullets.

I love the cartridge. It is cheap to shoot. It is easy to load. It's just plain FUN!

tark said:

My 45-70 is a home made copy of a rolling block and it weighs 11 pounds with its 32' octagon barrel. Even with planet wrecker loads and its steel buttplate ; it kicks about like a 12 gauge with duck loads. Recoil is definitely tamed by more weight. If your first experience with a 45-70 included a Ruger #3....well...great gun, but way to little weight for the power of the cartridge.

Are you sure of your dates? My research shows the slaughter of the American bison began in earnest around 1868 and was pretty much completed be 1881-82,, with over 31,000,000 animals being killed. And it is a matter of historical fact that the 45-70 did its share of the killing. At typical buffalo hunting ranges, under 150 yards, a 45-70 bullet would (and still will) go entirely through a buffalo and sail off into the wild blue yonder.. So...how much power do you need??? This, too, is fact. Clint Smith told me years ago that he would have to choose his shots carefully when he and Venturino hunted buffalo; to be sure that another animal was not behind the first. He knew his bullet would not stay inside the animal he shot. He was using a 45-70, with straight black powder and 500 gr. lead bullets.

I love the cartridge. It is cheap to shoot. It is easy to load. It's just plain FUN!

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AMEN!!! and I am also looking at the new henry singleshot rifle in 45-70 hehe don't tell my wife...

jmr40 said:

This myth is part of the reason it is popular, people think they are getting a round with historical significance.. The 45-70 was introduced in 1873. The majority of the bison were dead prior to the civil war which started in 1861. Laws were passed in 1874 and 1875 banning bison hunting to preserve the handful left. The 45-70 in its original loading was considered too weak for anything larger than deer, or indians. By the 1890's the 45-70 was all but dead. The 30-30 introduced in 1895 was considered far more powerful at the time. The round lay basically dormant and rarely used for about 80 years before being revived in the early 1970's by Marlin and the new production 1895 rifle. Advertising at the time was quite colorful, hinting that the round had done a lot more than it had actually done historically. Helping create the legend, or myth.

Of course modern loadings make the round a legitimate large game round. But at the cost of excessive recoil. A 30-06 class cartridge will take any game animal you can take with the hottest 45-70 loadings, but with half the recoil.

I've owned 3 different 45-70's going back to one of the 1973 Marlins. After realizing the real history and the fact that recoil was way out of proportion to performance I eventually sold all 3. From a historical perspective the 30-30 has more history on it's side. The 45-70 was used as a military cartridge for only about 20 years, and wasn't particularly successful. Custer's men were some of the first to use it, and it didn't perform well.

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So, you are wrong. Whether knowingly so or otherwise. Since you assert as fact that which is not, please provide evidence to support your erroneous claims or quietly slink off. No bluster required or requested. Proof or consequences.

Bull Nutria said:

My limited experience with the cartridge was with a Ruger #3 that my uncle owned. Man it was brutal on recoil. I really don't get it, how a cartridge with a rainbow trajectory and recoil like a mule is so wildly popular for over a 100 years.

Bull

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IIRC, it wasn't very popular at all until Marlin came out with their Guide Gun. In old texts it's often described as 'obsolete'. I've seen letters written to magazines before the year 1900 where people were already making fun of the 'obsolete' .45-70. Marlins and hot rod loads breathed new life into it. It's popular because of the big bullets and cool factor.

salt&battery said:

not a bad bullet flight with your cast bullet. I hope you do not have an H&R single shot. that would kick like a mule

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It is and it does. 50 rounds in a day makes your shoulder turn colors.

Reading about the long history of the 45-70 is what piqued my interest. I bought a modern Winchester 1886 (Miroku) a few years back. Fit and finish are awesome and it's quite a brute. I've tried a variety of loads but have not shot much past 100yds.

d'zaster said:

Reading about the long history of the 45-70 is what piqued my interest. I bought a modern Winchester 1886 (Miroku) a few years back. Fit and finish are awesome and it's quite a brute. I've tried a variety of loads but have not shot much past 100yds.

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that is a gorgeous rifle. I tapped my friends for a tang sight. then we shot it with loads I made with cast bullets it was a great time very high quality rifle

There's just something really cool about a great big bore and to me, the rifles for which the round is chambered just feel right in my arms. Also, I'm a contrary SOB and in the age of rifles that look like something out of a B SciFi movie, it feels a little rebellious to gravitate toward something a little more old fashioned. As much as I try, I just can't get excited by synthetics, rails, bells and whistles (and let's face it, the AR is to guns what Nickelback is to rock 'n roll ).

I'm not going to paint the .45-70 and other slow heavy big bore rounds as the best in the world big game rounds, but they work with bone shattering effectiveness. The recoil? depends on the load but often it's more of a slow push than the punch you get from speedy rounds. Also, getting away from the bench (leverguns are made to be shot while on your feet or on horseback) takes a lot of the pain out of recoil. The rainbow trajectory, as others have noted, is half the fun. Sometimes learning to do something that's a little more difficult than usual is ultimately more rewarding.

When I was growing up, the 45-70 was considered an obsolete and a dead cartridge. Several writers had penned its obituary, predicting it was just a matter of time before the great and venerated cartridge would buried and all but forgotten.

But there were too many inexpensive surplus trap door Springfields and Siamese Mausers floating around for the 45-70 to fade away into complete obscurity. It clung to life with enough tenacity to keep Marlin Model 1895 rifles in continuous production and for Ruger to introduce the Model 3 single shot, both in that grand old caliber.

What really boosted the popularity of the 45-70 with modern shooters was the rise of Cowboy Action Shooting and Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competitions. The 45-70 was a natural fit. Marlin took advantage of the rising popularity and introduced its Guide Gun, one of the best 45-70 rifles made, in my opinion, which boosted popularity even further. This lead to Marlin introducing several rifles in the 45-70, such the 1895 Cowboy and a series of Davis Limited Editions, my favorite being the LTD III with an 18 inch octagon barrel, straight stock and full length magazine. Winchester reintroduced 45-70 lever actions to their lineup.

The 45-70 has risen from being a dead and almost forgotten to once again being one of America's favorite cartridge, like a Phoenix rising from its ashes and it promises to remain so for a long time coming

The .45-70 has great history, no doubt. That appeals to a lot of people. It also offered something that basically no other rifle common in the US did until recently. Where else were you going to get a round that threw a 400+ grain bullet at 3000+ ft/lbs of energy? The .458 WM was an option, but it was a poorly performing mess until sometime in the late 70s or early 80s when they got the loads ironed out. And people didn't trust it for decades after that.

For roughly a 50 year period from when IMR 3031 and 4198 became available allowing hot loads in nickle steel barreled 1885/1886s until the .458 WM and .416 Remington became good options in the 80s, the .45-70 loaded hot was the ballsiest thing commonly available in the US along with the .405win loaded in similar ways. During that time it developed a very good reputation for stopping bears to go along with the good historical reputation for bison.

I've got a custom 1886 in .45-90 that is flat out my favorite gun. It's got a shotgun stock and hefty recoil pad, so it's fun to shoot with reasonable loads and won't injure you with any load. The .45-90 chamber allows it to be loaded up over 4000 ft/lbs if I want - a 425 gr flat nose monolithic solid at 2070 ft/s or a 405gr Woodleigh bonded soft at 2110 ft/s puts it at least in the same class a .404J or .450/400 NE, which were the elephant control rounds of choice for many decades. So we're basically talking about an 8 shot lever action elephant gun that can be cycled almost twice as fast as any bolt action. It also happens to be MOA-accurate off the bench, not that it matters much for this sort of thing. Now, I'm not likely to book an elephant hunt any time soon. But on bears and hogs in North America the 405 softs hit like a freight train. If the animal doesn't pile up on the spot, it's blood supply falls out the hole on the back side in short order.

Plus in my humble opinion it looks badass:


If the .45/70 and .45/90 are wrong, I don't want to be right.

AH, MAN! That is one beautiful rifle, Llama Bob!

Vern Humphrey said:

It won't do anything that a .30-06 won't do, and do better with less recoil. But hey, it's what they used back then.

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This is just patently false. The .45-70, properly loaded, is a viable dangerous game cartridge. The .30-06 is not, in any flavor.

jmr40 said:

This myth is part of the reason it is popular, people think they are getting a round with historical significance.. The 45-70 was introduced in 1873. The majority of the bison were dead prior to the civil war which started in 1861. Laws were passed in 1874 and 1875 banning bison hunting to preserve the handful left. The 45-70 in its original loading was considered too weak for anything larger than deer, or indians. By the 1890's the 45-70 was all but dead. The 30-30 introduced in 1895 was considered far more powerful at the time. The round lay basically dormant and rarely used for about 80 years before being revived in the early 1970's by Marlin and the new production 1895 rifle. Advertising at the time was quite colorful, hinting that the round had done a lot more than it had actually done historically. Helping create the legend, or myth.

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You can keep repeating this nonsense but it won't make it true. I would proclaim that anyone who thinks a .458", 500gr slug at 1300fps is "too weak for anything larger than deer or Indians", doesn't know their posterior orifice from a hole in the ground.

jmr40 said:

Of course modern loadings make the round a legitimate large game round. But at the cost of excessive recoil. A 30-06 class cartridge will take any game animal you can take with the hottest 45-70 loadings, but with half the recoil.

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More complete nonsense. The .30-06 true believers are almost as frothy as Glockophiles.