Smashed shoulder trying to crimp?!?!?!?!

What crimp die are you using?

If your using a Lee die that seats and crimps like this

http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-223-rem-bullet-seatingcrimping-die

then back off of crimp then adjust the OAL. This die can crimp before bullet is fully seated and casus the shoulder to give as the bullet tries to continue seating after full crimp.

If the brass has stretched, and it will, and you haven't trimmed it, the case is too long and the crimp die is buckling the shoulder slightly.

I prefer to seat and crimp in two separate operations, and I trim .223 brass every time before loading.

Hope this helps.

Fred

It appears that you don't really need to crimp a .223. Do either of the bullets you're using have a cannelure?

I crimp everything that's going to be fed through an AR, but not for my bolt rifles. I've experienced bullets being pushed into the case in AR's, so crimping into the crimp groove prevents that. And yes, I have plenty of neck tension, but I also have rifles with pretty violent actions.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I have a slight crimp on my 223's for the AR too and I seat them to the cannelure. I don't worry about bullet jump and bumping shoulders back with the die I have because by the time the shoulder comes back after moving forward (as they do in a lee FL sizing die) it's around .003" set back. Accuracy is not my concern, function is.

If I were loading for a bolt gun I would not crimp and I would bump the shoulders and maybe adjust OAL for accuracy.

easy, just don't crimp it!

If your dead set you want to crimp, the lee factory crimp die is the only way to go. As people mentioned above the case length needs to be exact for a seating/crimping die to work properly or it will crush the shoulders. with the Lee factory crimp die the length doesn't matter and its impossible to crush a case.

someguy2800 said:

easy, just don't crimp it!

If your dead set you want to crimp, the lee factory crimp die is the only way to go. As people mentioned above the case length needs to be exact for a seating/crimping die to work properly or it will crush the shoulders. with the Lee factory crimp die the length doesn't matter and its impossible to crush a case.

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Lee factory crimp dies work very well. If neck tension/crimping are issues, this is the way to go. IMHO

You can't roll crimp into a jacketed bullet that doesn't have a crimp groove in it. That's where the shoulder deformation is coming from.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Stop crimping. A test you can do is take an uncrimped round, measure the OAL, cycle it 4 or 5 time then measure again. If you see any change it won't be more than a couple of thou. If it's more you have a neck tension issue, not a crimping problem.

I tried crimping a little when I started loading ammo for my AR ... I found the variation of the ogives verses the measured bullet movement( for non crimp) were within what I considered an allowed amount ... So I gave up crimping for my AR ...

I also am not a person that commonly puts the same bullet in and out of a chamber ...say like a policeman or armed guards .... May would have to do ...

I found that good neck tension is the key to bullet movement ... even in an AR ...

So no crimping for me ... and after many thousands of rounds ... no problems that I could place blame on non crimped ammo....

Larryswn said:

I followed the directions with the seat/crimp die and ended up with a nice little crimp that looks just like the high dollar factory stuff I had. Now, for some reason I can't crimp the 5.56 without smashing the shoulder.

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Unless you tiim each resized case back each time, the near .001" they grow in length can get pushed back by the seating die's crimp shoulder. You'll be better off if you make sized case mouths smaller in diameter so you won't need to crimp at all

As one of the few first couple dozen military people to shoot the M16 across the standard course of fire for service rifles at the 1971 Nationals, we all chatted about this crimp issue we knew would come up. Our brethren sitting on stools next to a bench where their bolt guns rested on supports atop a bench never crimped their 22 caliber bullets in case necks because they knew that caused accuracy problems. We decided to do the same and nobody had any bullet shift in any direction as bolt's slammed ammo against the chamber shoulder. Our 30 caliber semiauto service rifles had bullets over 3 times heavier and the weren't crimped in 7.62 NATO ammo. Their ammo slammed into the chamber shoulder faster than that of the M16 rifles did with theirs.

M1, 30 caliber 175 gr. with about .30 square inch of case neck grip, 9 fps bolt speed equals 314 ft-lbs energy.

AR15, 22 caliber 55 gr. with about .15 square inch of case neck grip, 7 fps bolt speed equals .060 ft-lbs. A 77 gr., bullet, .084 ft-lbs energy.

Bullet release force unknown, but with case neck grip pressure (psi) and friction indices the same for all, release force for 30 caliber bullets will be about twice that of 22 caliber ones.

See in the below link, the Garand cycle video at 1200 frames/second, and the one comparing it to an AR15.

https://imgur.com/gallery/3kabN

I've been called every name in the book for not testing bullets crimped in ammo for accuracy. Never had any reason to seeings how the best accuracy attained is without crimped in bullets. None of the competitive shooters getting best accuracy do it. Nor does Sierra Bullets. Figure out how to size cases so their mouths are a few thousandths smaller and that'll grip your slippery bullets tighter in case mouths and throats. Polishing down your die's expander ball a few ten-thousandths inch is a good place to start.

Ne're the less, some won't grasp this reasoning. While some do see better results from crimping, they would be better off finding out what was done wrong in their reloading to need partial fixing by crimping in their bullets.

The OP posted yesterday. Being suspicious (OK paranoid) I was sure he was referring to his own shoulder.

Case length consistency is very important. So is consistency in all aspects concerning handloading or just buy factory ammo and trust those folks.
The first 223 I handloaded I applied too much crimp and being little cases it bruised the shoulders on some until I figured out my problem. I took the ones that would not chamber and used an aluminum flat bar and rolled the shoulders out on most of them on the anvil and then they chambered.
I do lightly crimp but I am not a match shooter and my rifles and loads are more accurate than the shooter anymore so I think for my own use consistency is more important.
Handloading is a good hobby I took up because I love to shoot and you have to put all your daily issues with life away to concentrate solely on it for safetys sake. Peace at least for a while. Lol

I'm not an AR person but I do load for my father in laws and I've never had a problem with not crimping. I also load for my friends M1 garand and have not had an issue with not crimping those as well. On the garand we tested by loading the same round in the gun by dropping the bolt 10 times and measuring. Bullet didn't move.

Larryswn said:

Exactly, I'm crimping because it's for an AR-15. I'm using the Hornady crimp/seat die. The brass is brand new and fits in the headspace gauge perfectly, doesn't need to be trimmed yet. That's what's throwing me for a loop is my .223 brass has the same outer dimensions and Crimps just fine. The 55 grain stuff has a cannelure but the 68 grain does not. I have to put a lot of pressure on it to push it inside the case but...... this is a dumb question but would you crimp something without a cannelure anyway?

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I assume you are sizing the new brass?

Larryswn said:

Exactly, I'm crimping because it's for an AR-15. I'm using the Hornady crimp/seat die. The brass is brand new and fits in the headspace gauge perfectly, doesn't need to be trimmed yet. That's what's throwing me for a loop is my .223 brass has the same outer dimensions and Crimps just fine. The 55 grain stuff has a cannelure but the 68 grain does not. I have to put a lot of pressure on it to push it inside the case but...... this is a dumb question but would you crimp something without a cannelure anyway?

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I load for four assorted AR 15 rifles and have never had a need to crimp. I have always relied on bullet hold or neck tension. That being here nor there. Every time I have seen the problem you are experiencing it was a result of the seating die being run down too deep. I would try backing out the seating plug and running the die down on a known properly sized case. Run the die down till it is stopped by the case. This should be covered in the seating die instructions for your die. Once the die is setup begin running the seating plug down trying to seat a bullet. Run the seating plug down till you get the desired cartridge overall length you want for your bullet and case. Before you even seat a bullet make sure the brass will chamber in your rifle. The choice to apply a roll type crimp is entirely up to you but I would try with just using a neck tension method.

Ron