LIMP WRISTING - Anectdotal Evidence or Scientifically Based?

My only help (if you can call it that) is on 3. Tightening all of the fingers of your grip hand during trigger press, or too little trigger finger (using the tip) are the two most likely causes of shooting left.

1. I don't know for sure but I've seen it happen with my SA XDs. When I shoot it, it's fine. When my friend and his wife shoot it, it has FTFs. I'm pretty sure it says in the manual that limp wristing will lead to malfunctions. Think about it. The recoil spring is meant to shove the next round up the feed ramp and in the chamber. It is sprung to a specific weight and when the gun fires it is designed to operate as if the opposing force on the grip is present, not just on the opposing force that would be created by the gun's inertia alone. If the forward force of the recoil spring is not opposed by great enough force (pressure of a tightly gripped hand and somewhat rigid wrist), then the recoil spring may not be fully compressed when cycling, and the next round may not be engaging the breach face or extractor properly. Sure seems like it could cause problems to me. Studies? Doubt it.

2. Personally I feel a gun should function 100% out of the box, but there are things going on when a pistol is brand new.

Springs may loosen up slightly to the proper weight to cycle the gun properly. Triggers tend to smooth up leading to a better grip, and trigger to finger interaction. You are learning how to grip a new gun and what the recoil impulse feels like.

When I hear a gun needs a break in period, I think it's more that the shooter needs to be broken in to shooting a new gun, and the internals need to be smoothed out with a little use. The gun should function out of the box if you are shooting it properly. The 500 round break in period is also meant to test the functionality of the gun and make sure there isn't in fact a real mechanical problem. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the issues you had. If you like the gun, keep shooting it, and do a lot of dry fire practice. If it doesn't function 99% by the time you are ready to carry it, perhaps contact the manufacturer.

3. I'd venture to guess you have too much finger on the trigger. It's a common issue, especially if you have larger hands. You may be jerking the trigger a bit too or if the trigger is a bit heavy, you may be tightening your grip a bit as you pull the trigger. Found this Googling.

I don't know how scientifically limp wristing has been studied, but I believe it is real. A gun with a heavier frame is often less susceptible to limp wristing than a gun with a lightweight frame.

I don't know about your other guns and shooting left, but Glock's do have a general reputation for shooting left.

Glocks (9mm versions, and I'll suspect .380 versions as well), and 9mm HK's are also known for being slightly over-sprung, designed for full power defensive ammo (usually 124 gr and up and + P even), and most training ammo is lightweight 115gr, and less powerful. This often creates problems when the gun is new. Using more powerful ammo or letting the springs break in will usually fix this issue.

I think I remember a video on Military Arms Channel when he was consistently able to cause malfunctions on a Glock by limp wristing. He's not a scientist but the physics make sense.

1. Glock certainly sees it as an issue, enough to include it in their armorers manual.


2. Even my guns that explicitly state "break ins" in their respective manuals have never had an issue going well beyond that point without an issue.

***you didn't state your total number of rounds shot.. 2 failures in 50rds is a lot different than 2 in 1000rds.

I own 5 glocks (Full sized).. However, if they required that I had a death grip every time, I wouldn't own any.. A gun has to work no matter my grip or anyone elses IMO...

3. are you cross eye dominate?

1. Yes, limp wristing as a source of autoloading pistol malfunction has been proven. Yes, it has been proven. You can perform this "testing" for yourself by holding loosely, or holding the pistol upside down, choking the bottom of the grip between your index and thumb, and firing with your pinky finger. It also happens with many semiauto shotguns; held tightly to the shoulder, they'll feed fine, held loosely, especially by lighter shooters, they'll mis-feed. My take? It's real, it happens. Fixing it is easy, through either or both of technique or mechanical modification.

2. Did you perform a strip, clean, and lubricate of the pistol before firing? Factory fresh, dry pistols can misfeed, regardless of brand. Give them a little loose juice and they behave as they should. If you did this and it still misfed, I'd look at how the misfeeds are happening - ejection, extraction, and feeding are all very simple processes, and simple enough to troubleshoot. Ask the pistol what's ailing it, it'll tell you.

3. Multiple issues can cause left impacts with a well-regulated pistol. Too much finger on the trigger, tensing the wrist, tightening the grip, sympathetically "pulling the trigger" with the index finger of your support hand, jerking the trigger, punching the recoil, etc etc. Break down your trigger pull mechanics and it'll reveal itself. Dry fire practice and ball & dummy with a partner...

Limp-wristing is not an "annecdote," it is a result of basic physical laws. Most semi-auto handguns are recoil-operated, and depend upon the motion of the slide relative to the frame in order to cycle. The recoil forces drive the slide backwards against the resistance of the recoil spring. That recoil spring is, at the same time, being compressed against the frame. If the frame moves out of the way, then the spring doesn't compress and the slide doesn't move in relation to the frame.

You can move the frame at 100mph, but if the frame is moving at 100mph in the same direction, the gun won't cycle. It's the relative motion of the slide to the frame that cycles the action. If the frame moves too much, then the slide doesn't move enough relative to the frame to cycle the action. With a heavy frame, the frame's own inertia provides enough resistance to acceleration to permit the relative motion of the slide. But with very light frames (like small polymer frames, for instance), you really need some inertia from the human using the gun in the equation. The only way to effectively couple the body's inertia to that of the frame is with a very firm grip. If you don't have that, then the frame may move too much in response to the force exerted by/on the recoil spring, and will not allow enough relative motion between the slide and frame.

Short version: Yes, it's real. Because physics.

As to your question about break-in: Breaking a gun in that is having "limp-wrist" problems can happen. Because 1. the recoil spring can get a bit softer, which reduces the force transmitted to the frame prior to the slide reaching the end of its rearward travel and 2. people often learn to grip the gun more firmly as they get experience with it.

ATLDave said:

Most semi-auto handguns are recoil-operated, and depend upon the motion of the slide relative to the frame in order to cycle.

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That's what I was trying to say. You worded it much more concisely and clearly though. That word relative is really important when it comes to recoil operated guns.

It is IMO a great reason why new shooters should start out on a revolver if they are willing. No relative motion to worry about.

Or a metal-framed, full-sized semi-auto. It's the lack of inertia of polymer frames (and small alloy frames) that caused the "epidemic" of limp-wristing.

If some one is getting failures and gives the gun to another shooter who doesn't, is that anecdotal or scientific? I would consider it scientific because its a trouble shooting procedure to isolate the problem even though its a small sample size.

My experience is if shooting left the first thing I do is put more finger on the trigger rather than less. Because the finger is essentially pushing the trigger and gun left. Too much finger pulls the gun right. There can of course be a lot more to it than just that. But with an experienced shooter shooting a new gun its what I would recommend first. My experience with a G42 is I need more finger on the trigger than I do with a G26 or else I shoot left.

1st- I have no scientific data regarding limp-wristing, BUT- I have witnessed it. I was a trainer for several years in the military. Usually I worked with male Soldiers assigned to SOF units (team personnel). SOMETIMES I was tasked to train support troops, both male and female (back then there were only these 2 choices, but I digress). The malfunctions commonly associated with limp-wristing were much more frequent among the less experienced (and typically smaller) support Soldiers and were most common with the females. Along with the malfunctions, the effects of the recoil were more evident by the amount of muzzle rise that was occurring, which was WAY out of proportion for the M9 pistols being used. This, of course, is a symptom of poor grip and to a lesser degree stance.
2nd- I have never considered a 500 round "break in" to be necessary for any off-the-shelf modern pistol of decent quality. Especially not a Glock.
3rd- another poster was kind enough to post the circular shooter's chart above. This is a very good guide to assess handgun performance IF the results are consistent, and the firearm is in good working order.

I have two G42 pistols and after hundreds of rounds through each am still waiting for the first failure.

i also had the hitting left problem but cured that by putting the trigger into the first joint of my trigger finger.

Sometimes the lighting can cause you to shoot a bit to the left or right depending on how it's hitting the sights. And....everyone has a slightly different eyeball with some having astigmatism or other anomaly that will cause us to shoot to a different POI. Some shooting friends had guns that hit well for them...and me, but others were right on for them but I was always off a bit. It's all in the eye.

And 'limp wristing' is most certainly a real phenomenon as many have opined. My Colt Delta is a really good example of this being 100% in my hands but one lady shooter had total jamming with every shot and just couldn't hold it hard enough for it to work. This type of thing would make producing a pistol for a large Police force quite a task...being as some of them would likely be weaker than others and while the majority would have no problems with the guns...there would be a few with major issues and you know what would be made of that. Trying to make a pistol that will work in anyone's hands would be quite the trick...but many modern examples do exist that come darn close.

It isn't just your wrist. If you allow your arm to rise and 'go with the recoil' like you would if shooting a hard kicking hand cannon, you can cause the same problem. My wife shoots her G43 with no problems at all, but my G42 gives her fits, it's always functioned great for me with one exception, weakly loaded reloads. I added a little more powder and it was again 100%. I suspect the extra recoil in the G43 let the gun function better.

I compare limp wristing to participating in a tug of war. Even the largest strongest team cannot win if they cannot grip the ground. The firearm needs to push agains something to operate reliably.

Women are experts at getting 9mm and .380 Glocks to fail due to being afraid of the slide, holding the pistol way too low, and too weakly.

-low powered ammo like 9mm and .380 is more prone to this, use the hottest 9mm and .380 you can. .40, .357,10mm, .45 are less prone, they have more power to cycle the slide.
-higher powered pistols also have stronger recoil springs, more power to go into battery with
-I can replicate this easy with a G19.4 with one of the early batch too strong recoil springs. Weak ammo and a weak grip wouldn't allow the gun to cycle well, and "brass to face".
-use a proper combat grip, as high as possible
-if you have long hands, use the darn G4 larger backstraps. I'm so tired of Gorilla hands guys using no back strap then complain about a bad grip or shots drifting left.
-lube the gun, the rails, the barrel outside, the lugs
-Detail strip the slide, it's 5min of time, harmless to the Glock, and key for extractor health.
-I often drag my thumbs on the slide, 9mm's hate this, 10mm and .45 don't care. LOL.
-Glock don't require a death grip, they require a decent grip. But there's no shame trying .40 or .357 if you get lazy with grip sometimes.

I had a FTF for the first time IDPA w/ 1911 .45ACP a year ago for no good reason using my non-dominant hand. Happened to a few others at the same session. Non-dominant hand. Then I read about limp-wristing. Has not happened to me since I grip the gun like I should. Mention it to others whenever I see it.

I have seen a lot of 1911s shot and I have shot quite a few myself. Limp-wristing
with the old 1911 is real.

Zeke

Hanzo581 said:

I think I remember a video on Military Arms Channel when he was consistently able to cause malfunctions on a Glock by limp wristing. He's not a scientist but the physics make sense.

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Here's a couple of those videos

I have experience with limp-wristing which goes back many years, and involves
many shooters with autoloaders. In one such case, a woman's CC pistol would
lock up after every shot. The pistol would shoot fine, when shot by the rest of us.
She started doing arm and wrist strengthening exercises, and the pistol stopped
locking up, after a month or so she had it running like a sewing machine.

Now, although I hate glocks, given their reputation, I would hazard to say you
probably limp-wrist the occasional shot.(i.e. NOT the glock's fault) The way I
got over it was using a
Desert Eagle .44 . It's big, heavy, and it will absolutely stove pipe, if you don't
get and hold a very firm grip while firing. A sort of heavy "limp-wrist detector".
After firing a couple boxes of .44 thru
the DE, I came back to the smaller calibers, and have had no problems since.
So, sometimes the simplest answer is a little physical conditioning, on your behalf.

One thing that I was taught and found helpful is that squeezing the gun tighter with my hand was not the solution. Doing so only ensured that I would not hit the target. A firm grip is good but a death grip is not.
Proper alignment of the hand and forearm was the biggest factor that I was not doing correctly.

Zendude said:

One thing that I was taught and found helpful is that squeezing the gun tighter with my hand was not the solution. Doing so only ensured that I would not hit the target. A firm grip is good but a death grip is not.
Proper alignment of the hand and forearm was the biggest factor that I was not doing correctly.

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Hold the pistol in your strong hand. GRIP it with your weak hand.

JTQ said:

I don't know how scientifically limp wristing has been studied, but I believe it is real. A gun with a heavier frame is often less susceptible to limp wristing than a gun with a lightweight frame.

I don't know about your other guns and shooting left, but Glock's do have a general reputation for shooting left.

Click to expand...

Late 90s (when ammo was still fairly cheap) went to the range for a church night. I have a glock 20 (pre 90s ban) which for me also shoots slightly left but that's about it. I let one lady fire it and every single round stovepiped on her. My wife and kids have never fired that pistol.

Pretty much every pistol I fire seems to go left. But I have a very large but slender hand (finding gloves that fit has always been a challenge). I think its because the act of squeezing my trigger finger so far makes my wrist start to naturally roll. For me 1911's are the worst. The glock I also roll, that might be due to how for the trigger travels.

I have a 44mag revolver with a 10" barrel...would that help with limp wrist training as well? I'm not too interested in getting a DE. My sporterized 03A3 weighs less than a 50ae DE.