Limp-Wristing

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Geronimo45

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
3,345
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
I'm probably wrong, seeing as I've never seen a case of limp-wristing. But from what I've read here and elsewhere, here's a few observations:
1. Limp-wristing tends to affect blowback-operated guns more than locking lug (Browning design) systems.
2. Limp-wristing has a tendency to mess up lighter-weight Browning-type systems - polymer frames, etc. This may carry over into the little 'mouseguns' - Walther, Beretta.
3. Heavier handguns have less limp-wristing problems, generally speaking.
4. Limp-wristing will cause your wrist to break with .454 Casull.

Keep in mind that my remarks are wrong until proven correct. "All I know is what I read in the papers." Anybody have real-world data on limp-wristing problems, and what types of guns it effects most?
 
I've seen one case of limp-wristing with a Glock 19 in the hands of a small, lightweight Vietnamese-ancestry girl I took to the range one time.

She had almost no tension in her wrist muscles, and after being fired the gun flopped back to where it was almost pointing at the ceiling. As the action didn't have enough force to cycle, the ejecting round stovepiped.

That's my only experience with it, for what it's worth.
 
G45,

That looks like a list from the "Gun Myths" thread more than anything else. ;)

I've seen all steel 1911s as well as XDs "limp-wristed" just this weekend. I've seen 9mm and 45 limp-wristed. The only thing I've not seen limp-wristed were < .380s and revolvers.

For folks that have this problem, try putting a strip of medical tape from the web of your hand to each side of the wrist so that it pulls when your hand flips up limp-wristing. The tape isn't a reinforcement, but a proprioception "muscle memory" tool to remind your wrist not to let the flip occur.
 
I just wayched someone have trouble with limp wristing an HK .45 (IIRC). Are they blowback or locking lug? Just curious.
 
HK45? If it's a handgun in .45, it's probably locking-lug/Browning-style. Unless HK makes a .22, I'm guessing all their handguns are Browning-style.

Myths, you say? Good. I like the whole blowback setup. Simplicity is nice.
 
now i'm curious...

after reading this thread
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=227357
where 1911Tuner appears to put limp-wristing in the "myth" category, i guess i'd like a little more explanation. if guns are right and run with very light grip, then what is it about the grip that causes FTE? or, what is wrong with the gun that would cause that?
 
ANY semi-auto can be caused to malfunction by "limpwristing", given the right conditions. In order for the gun to function properly, the slide has to be able to outrun the frame upon firing in order for the slide to reach it's it's full rearward movement before the gas pressure quits pushing on it and and momentum runs out.
There are many variables that affect this. The strength of the recoil spring, the power of the load, cleanliness of the slide and rails, the bullet-to-barrel gas seal, the weight of the frame itself and, of course, the amount of resistance applied by the shooter.
If you were to suspend a semi-auto pistol cradled by 2 strings, one running under the dust cover in front of the trigger guard and the other under the tang or beavertail of the weapon, most pistols would malfunction nearly 100% of the time.
Given the amount of shooters that we deal with from day to day, we see this fairly often.
 
KelTec used to offer the P-40, which was a .40S&W version of their 9mm P-11. Key words here are 'used to' as they had SO many returned for functional problems but found most to be in perfect shape.

The problems were trying to shoot 40's out of such a light platform that they need a pretty tight grip to work properly. Kinda snappy in recoil, you know?

Those are the only pistols that I know of that are/were really succeptible to limp wristing. Most 1911 types should run, as Tuner said, with little regard to how they are held.
 
Geronimo45 said:
I'm probably wrong, seeing as I've never seen a case of limp-wristing. But from what I've read here and elsewhere, here's a few observations:
1. Limp-wristing tends to affect blowback-operated guns more than locking lug (Browning design) systems.
Click to expand...

Not from what I have seen, at least not due to the actual mechanism. I suspect that if more limpwrist problems occur with blowbacks it is because of the low energy cartridges they are designed around.

Geronimo45 said:
2. Limp-wristing has a tendency to mess up lighter-weight Browning-type systems - polymer frames, etc. This may carry over into the little 'mouseguns' - Walther, Beretta.

3. Heavier handguns have less limp-wristing problems, generally speaking.
Click to expand...

The lighter the weight of the pistol, the more likely it is to be affected by a limp wrist. With a heavy pistol like a 1911, the mass of the pistol itself is going to provide a good bit of resistance to the movement/rotation of the gun during recoil, but a light weight pistol doesn't have that advantage.

Geronimo45 said:
4. Limp-wristing will cause your wrist to break with .454 Casull.
Click to expand...

Never shot one, but somehow I doubt it is very likely. I don't think it wil cause a malfuntion, though! :D
 
I resemble that remark...I own one of the aforementioned Kel-Tec P40 pistols (now discontinued). I also have a P11 (same gun in 9mm) a couple of P32s, and a fair collections of other semi-auto pistols. I really wanted to like the P40, but could never get it to work reliably - even after returning it to Kel-Tec and trying a variety of ammo. It would sometimes get through a magazine or two without a jam, but rarely more than that. I don't think I limp wristed it - though the design may be such that it has to be held unusually firmly. I haven't had this problem with other guns - including some fairly lightweight .40s (I now use a compact Firestorm/Bersa Mini-40 as a replacement for the Kel-Tec). Anyway, it seems to me that if a 6'2" 240lb experienced shooter using a two-hand hold and firing deliberately gets jams due to "limp wristing" - it's a design flaw. Then again, if the gun works reliably for some shooters, I guess that's fine. Or it still may be something about my particular P40. I did install the +1 magazine extensions on all my P40 magazines and I've heard that that might contribute, though that doesn't seem likely to me.

Anyway, I don't mean to turn this into a Kel-Tec P40 discussion - just wanted to share my possible limp wristing experience. By the way, I'm very happy with my other Kel-Tec products (including my SU-16B) and, in general, with Kel-Tec's service.

Doug
 
Too many people I respect here claim the phenomenon to be real. I believe Pax even posted a picture once.

However, in my experience, in this specific market area, it has been used far too often to shift the blame from a malfunctioning firearm to the buyer. It's been done by several manufacturers and several gun shops. In each of these cases is was bovine scat.

So, although I believe it to be "real" it's correctly diagnosed perhaps one time in a hundred, or one time in a thousand. For so long as it's used by the lazy, the inept or the dishonest to deflect responsibility I doubt it'll graduate fully from the "urban legend" charge so often applied to it.

A pity, as this obfuscates the issue when limp-wristing is truely at the root of a problem.
 
Being a certified gunsmith and full-time instructor, I have, many times, taken someone's gun who claimed that it was malfunctioning and proved that it was nothing more than incorrect grip. I'll be the first to say that it FAR from being the ONLY reason that causes Type II malfunctions but it certainly happens often enough to be called credible and far from a myth.
There have been a few times in the last 3 years or so that I have actually purchased guns from a someone that swore up and down that the gun was to blame and, from the way they described it, I certain enough that it was related to grip that I bought them, test-fired them and sold them. They simply did NOT want to hear anything about them not holding right.
 
Generally speaking, I would assume anyone posting here about limp-wrist knows whereof they speak.

Sometimes, it can be hard to picture how the unscrupulous can "take that ball and run with it" if one has never done so oneself.

Still, a defensive handgun may well be called on to function in adverse conditions including one-handed, weak hand, impaired grip, etc. If your defensive handgun requires a splint, an Ace bandage, a two-handed grip that would shatter a coconut and / or that you "hold your mouth just right"...

...might be time to find a less fussy firearm.
 
Hawk, I think you make some good points: I see limpwristing used as an excuse for mechanical problems too often. Like DougB, I too own a P-40, but unlike his mine has been reliable. Was Doug limpwristing? Who can tell, but I somehow doubt it considering the other firearms he owns that seem to work fine for him.

To me, limpwristing is simply a training issue, like learning trigger control or a proper sight picture. Limpwristing does not require a "coconut shattering" grip, just a wrist that doesn't act like a hinge each shot.
 
To me, limpwristing is simply a training issue, like learning trigger control or a proper sight picture. Limpwristing does not require a "coconut shattering" grip, just a wrist that doesn't act like a hinge each shot.
Click to expand...
Precisely!
 
I ran into limp wristing once when I was selling a 1911 to a friend. The gun was a Springfield Loaded. I bought it used for almost nothing since the previous owner had broken the extractor by dropping his slide on a round in the chamber one to many times. The gun had some teething issues until the extractor got tweaked just right. I owned it for a few years after that, then sold it to a buddy of mine so I cuold get the cash together for another pistol I had been wanting for a while.

He couldn't get through a magazine with it without the gun malfunctioning. I took the gun back, and ran a hundred rounds through it with no problems. I asked him to shoot it again with me present, and viola!, the gun jammed. I cleared the jam, then fixed his grip. He was actually letting the gun kick up to almost a full 90 degrees, not just his wrist, but he was bending his elbow and rotating the shoulder somewhat. He ended up passing on the gun even after I fixed his shooting grip/tech and the gun ran fine in his hands. I sold it to another buddy and haven't heard any complaints.
 
For the longest time, I never really understood or believed the whole limp-wristing thing, because it has never happened to me. Since my break in period on my kimber 1911, it has been 100% reliable for me. On the other hand, it is almost guaranteed that it will jam on one of my buddy's ever time I take one them to the range.
 
"...might be time to find a less fussy firearm."

That would be a revolver who's functioning is not affected by limp wristing. What Desertscout has said is absolutely correct. You can demonstrate "limpwristing" by putting underpowered ammo in your gun. It will likely fail to eject. It is not a design flaw. You are simply not using it properly. I've seen many students fire their pistols all day long without a malfunction, then when they do opposite hand unsupported drills, they get malfunction after malfunction. That isn't because the gun stopped working. It's because they don't have the grip strength in their opposite hand, or at least aren't holding it as tight as they need to.
 
"Finding a less fussy firearm" is my heartfelt suggestion in the face of an incorrect diagnosis of limpwrist. This would not be my advice if the diagnosis was coming from Desertscout or most here.

I hasten to add that I'm not impuning anyone's advice here - I'm convinced it's "real". However, my "real world, in person, face-to-face" experiences with "limp wrist" are running at a 100% rate of bogusity. This is simply due to the observation that the experts who had dianosed "limp wrist" were also unable to make the gun run. Getting them to try it took far longer and cost far more than it should have.

The biggest difference is that those contributing to this thread will take the firearm and it'll work. Those I'm familiar with locally will offer a diagnoisis of limp-wrist while staring at the wall. Big difference. But for so long as the less scrupulous are doing so, limp-wrist will maintain some degree of "urban legend" about itself.

There are still occasional threads regarding malfs where "limp-wrist" is invoked prior to ascertaining if the gun works at all for anyone, not just the poster asking. It's advice like this that I have no respect for. If nobody can make it run, it's most assuredly not limp-wrist.

My issue with limp wrist isn't whether it exists, it's whether it should be the first guess as to why a gun won't run, particularly a newly purchased one.
 
I had it happen with my Sig P220 in .45 when I fired from my weak hand in an uncomfortable position (was during a combat training class). Wasn't positive this is what caused it so I intentionally tried with my right hand and a loose grip (only one round). Sure enough, ejecting shell stuck at an angle. Not enough recoil force to get the slide far enough back during cycling. W
 
I understand that holding some types of semi-auto shotgun results in jams. I have never owned a semi-auto shotgun, so I can't speak from experience.
 
I'm not going to use the term limp wristing but I like hso saw quite a few failures on semiauto's that were shot by ladies. One was very strange. As she shot the lever that locked the slide back would become engaged. I watched several times thinking she was hitting it accidently with her thumb she was not. This occured an average of three shots. I ran several mags through the gun one handed slow and fast, and I can run one very fast without a failure. It has something to do with not enough resistance but it could be torque not just resisting inertia thats involved. Whatever it is it is frustrating for the person involved and it is a cop out for gun dealers when a customer brings one back.

Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
Limp wristing
Replies
10
Views
944
Capt. Ct.
C
R
  • Locked
30S fail to feed, lets talk "limp wristing"
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
M1key
M1key
D
  • Locked
Limp wristing
Replies
14
Views
911
cz
C
O
  • Locked
Limp wristing?
Replies
14
Views
851
Vern Humphrey
V
S
Pistols that are less susceptible to limp-wrist malfunctions?
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
SterlingBullet
S
Back
Top