1858 conversion cylinder worth it?

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photo bucket is not going to stop being a pain. reports I've read
they are now claiming copyright ownership of all photos you have posted, and are making it so you can download
only with considerable difficulty. If you don't have pics saved o computer, you might lose them
I don't know about rest of you but I bought a cap and ball to shoot that, if I want shoot cartridge I'll do that with a cartridge gun
price? pietta averages $250 ( not on sale) a conversion cylinder about $200 so you are now in the price range of a better built better steel modern gun.
you want speed loads practice rolling paper cartridges no more time consuming than reloading and none of the cost for doing it
 
Ok,
So if I want to shoot a cartridge version of a converted 1860, I should get one from the factory instead of doing it myself (for basically the same $). Ok
So if I want to shoot a cartridge version of a converted Dragoon, I should get one from the factory instead of doing it myself. ? Problem is, nobody offers one. So, I shouldn't take advantage of the offerings from Kirst and decide that conversions are a waste? Hmmm . . . . I guess Kirst is an evil company that has to make a profit to stay in business which it has no business being in in the first place!? Sounds like the thought process of countries we fight to keep that sort of mentality from being taught/ used here . . . . .

If I thought along those lines, I wouldn't have the finest pair (yap, 2 of them!!), of the most accurate revolvers (mechanically and ballistically) I have ever and possibly will ever own in my life! This is even verified by a local customer of mine who shot them . . . . first time he'd even seen them . . . . . shot them better than his own revolvers . . . . . couldn't believe what he had done himself. . . . . made me happy as could be . . . . .

Yes, the price was about $730 and some change for each of the Dragoons and the conversions, but the money came out of MY pocket and I would gladly do it again knowing what I would probably end up with. A revolver that is as close to perfect mechanically and ballistically that I would have to pay considerably more for the same "factory" offering that would match what I have!

I guess I'm just too stupid to realize that I shouldn't be so pleased with my decision and shouldn't urge others to follow suit.
Maybe, Uberti will some day offer these wonderful revolvers already converted so we won't have to bear the burden of being so ignorant!
I reckon ignorance really is bliss!!

Mike
 
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45 Dragoon said:
I guess I'm just too stupid to realize that shouldn't be so pleased with my decision and shouldn't urge others to follow suit.
Maybe, Uberti will some day offer these wonderful revolvers already converted so we won't have to bear the burden of being so ignorant!
I reckon ignorance really is bliss!!

Mike
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Mike, I guess I am kinda dumb my own self. See, when people pay $2000+ for a 1911 that requires a break-in period (which just means the manufacturer didn't finish the gun) $730 for a unique gun that you are delighted with doesn't seem so bad. But what do I know? I'm silly enough to have gotten my own Kirst conversion and plan on buying another for a different gun.
SlGuleR.jpg
This'n is destined for a .45 gated conversion. Yeah, I can shoot it with BP and caps- but I don't want to. I got this gun specifically to make a cartridge conversion. Yes, if I want to shoot cartridges I could just buy a Vaquero like everyone else. BOOOOOORRRING. This one is unique- my own vision made real by my own skill and work. That's worth spending a few bucks extra to me.

The great thing about firearm hobbies is that there is a screw for every nut. Don't dog me out about wanting to shoot cartridges and I won't dog you out about shooting your front-stuffer. There's room at the range for all of us.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
Pop off the cap that contains the firing pins, drop in five rounds, YES FIVE, NOT SIX, pop the cap back on the cylinder and roll it back into the frame. How does that compare to dumping loose powder into a chamber, seating a wad, and seating a ball, X five (not six), then putting five caps on the nipples? There is just no comparison. After shooting the FIVE rounds
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So here's me standing on the ranges firing line. Load, raise gun, cock hammer, aim, fire, empty,reload repeat. But only five? Actually, with all my rim/center fire revolvers I load five, but not for some perceived safety issue, its because five goes into fifty even, six leaves two odds left in the box. Single action, double action, doesn't matter, hammer doesn't come to full cock until firing, gun doesn't leave the firing line loaded. Where it to, hammer on empty chamber makes sense.

Cap and ball, same conditions, only due its labor intensive loading procedure load all six, want more bang for my labor. In this case I've preloaded forty eight tubes with powder and ball, each in their own hole in the forty eight hole reloading block. Gun never leaves firing line loaded.

But then that's me, you guys do your own thing.
 
45 dragoon no I am not saying that, to each his own. While cartridge cylinders were a natural evolution, from what I have read, the guns were mostly returned to the factory for the conversion.
And yes Kirst and others have made this easier with theirs.
But I personally don't see a need for it. I bought C&B to shoot a historical weapon (replica) the way it was originally intended to shoot
Manually load the chambers add the projectile and cap and shoot. When I shoot it is for leisure and to just take my rime and enjoy it.
Not seeing how fast I can remove the cylinder, add new shells, and keep banging away.
I would use a semi auto if I wanted to do that.
And yes I do enjoy shooting my cartridge guns also.
But I practice doing my best to put each and every round precisely where I want it.
Growing up in the country, I often had to hunt for food for the table. Dad expected 1 rabbit or duck or pheasant for each round fired.
Then the Corps expanded on that. It just stuck with me.And I don't mind waiting for the smoke to clear to fire again.
the op asked opinions that's mine. But as always Mike shoot however and whatever you like, it's your money and your gun.
 
Well thanks DD.
(I don't think Uberti would convert my Dragoons for me if sent them back "to the factory")
I understand you may not have a need for the "conversion" thing but I tried to give you (and others) the reason for my "need". I can't make it any simpler than " nobody offers one". Or maybe I can - nobody makes a commercially available converted Dragoon that I can buy to satisfy my want of a converted Dragoon. There.

I understand that many folks think that;
- if you can't buy what you want, you should be happy with what is available.
- If I want to fan my six shooter, or "slip thumb" it, I should put it away and buy a semi auto.
- I can only imagine if I were going to shoot one round at a time, I should not load one chamber at a time but go out and buy a single shot pistol/rifle.

I think I'm happier enjoying life as I see fit, not like someone else sees it for me. That's the beauty of living in the USA, the freedom to pursue ones own desires/ambitions. As I've said before, I appreciate your service to our country (my family has/had a number of military personnel) but please allow people the ability to "do their own thing" with or without your ability to understand the "need" or the "why". I don't mean this to be so personal but you seem to insist that my wants don't make sense but yours do.
Yours aren't fun to me . . . . . . . mine are. Can't make it any more concise than that.

Mike
 
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Howdy Again

As I said earlier, I bought my first Cap & Ball revolver in 1968.

Been there, done that.

I don't put a whole lot of store in being excruciatingly historically accurate. I like to do what is practical.

And yes, I have fired Cap & Ball at Cowboy matches, where you spend a lot of time reloading. I'd rather slip in cartridges, thank you very much.

By the way, shot a big match this weekend. Two very experienced C&B shooters on my posse. Each one had a misfire (cap went off, charge did not). That cost them time on those stages. In fact, one even had a chain fire. I haven't seen a chainfire in a long time, not since I had one about 1970. He was stunned and did not know what had happened, he was really shaken up.

And no, not all C&B revolvers were factory converted, many were done by clever gunsmiths. When the Single Action Army came out in 1873, they were relatively expensive. There were thousands of old C&B revolvers in private hands. Often it was cheaper to convert a C&B to cartridges, rather than buy a new cartridge revolver.

Getting back to cartridge conversions, I'd rather spend my time at the loading bench whipping up some BP loaded cartridges, rather than messing with paper cartridges. Making BP cartridges is easy. No messing with paper or caps. Drop them in, shoot them, pop them out. What could be easier?

That's why cartridges were invented.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Of course cartridge conversions are also historically correct too, from the (mostly) Mexican long-cylinder conversions to Colt factory Richards-Mason conversions. Colt had literally tons of components for C&B revolvers and by 1870 they could see which way the wind was blowing... In 1873 a SAA cost $25- a Richards-Mason conversion cost $5. The cartridge conversions (actually new factory-built guns) were very popular for a lot of years after the SAA was introduced. You could return your gun to Colt for conversion and some did- but it cost as much as buying a new one.

This is way off-topic though. OP, only you can tell if it is worth it to you. As I said I'd try it wth cap-and-ball and see how you like that. If you don't the conversions will be there waiting.
 
noelf2 said:
Don't forget tax, shipping, and transfer fees. Brings those prices up to about $250, and for the cheapest revolvers available.
Click to expand...

And you have to add shipping on to the price of the conversion cylinder.

My state doesn't charge taxes on guns bought on the internet - YMMV.
So taking this one that no one bought at $175:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/672397297

Total out the door, for me, would be $175 + $23.90 shipping + $20FFL transfer = $218.90 OTD
The RIA revolvers have a bit of a following to them if you watch the youtube reviews. I'd rank em above the Taurus 85. I wouldn't be surprised if RIA didn't come out with a single action.

Fact is I don't think very many on here, if any own, shoot, and enjoy C&B revolvers with or without conversion cylinders for some reason of "saving money."
We shoot them because they are enjoyable and semi-historic.

Look at the financial outlay required to shoot a cap and ball revolver with BP or Substitutes past just buying the gun on sale.
You "need" (some of these you can make or do without) :
A nipple wrench
powder measure
powder flask
powder
ball
caps
wads

With experience you can cast your own ball, make your own wads, make your own powder, make your own caps. Still there are expenses in gearing up to do those things.

My 1st go at C&B was with the following:
Caps put on by hand. ($8.00 tin of 100)
Pyrodex pellets ($21 per can of 100) - yes you can get more shots out of a pound of powder but for me - the pellets were available and perfect for a 1st time BP shooter.
Nipple wrench $20
50 shots = $24.95 + shipping.
I can buy a 50rd box of 44 magnum for that.

I think we can agree we all wouldn't be posting here if we didn't like C&B revolvers. No need for anyone to get their feelings hurt.
 
4 dragoon we can always agree to disagree no harm in that. None of my remarks / opinions are meant to be personsl
could a machinist maybe make a cartridge cylinder out of and extra dragoon cylinder? No not cheap, but that would be an option

drobs to bad you didn't buy those accessories from me Would of been a lot cheaper
but all your accessories are still cheaper than a cartridge reloading setup
Myfeelings aren't hurt, and I did not intend to hurt anyone elses
 
I'd rather shoot Cap and Ball out out of my C&B revolvers. I've acquired a few conversion cylinders included with some purchases but never used the conversions yet (someday I'm sure) As others have mentioned, I have cartridge revolvers and pistols that I shoot cartridges out of so when I break out the C&B's it's loose powder, lead balls, and caps for me. Since the OP solicited advice, mine would be to at least give the lead ball projected by a percussion cap ignited Black Powder charge a chance a chance before you write it off.
 
And you have to add shipping on to the price of the conversion cylinder.
Click to expand...

Be patient and you get discount and free shipping. Last one I got was for a ROA, less than $200 with free shipping from MidwayUSA. Before that I got one for an 1858. $167 with free shipping. Combine sale with % off and free shipping. Can't lose. Never knew a dealer to give a free transfer. :D
 
I don't look at it as an either or situation. You can switch back and forth so I really don't see why it causes such a stir for so many folks.
It IS a permanent setup for me because of the ordinances where I live. I can't shoot out doors in my county so I'd have to drive to another county to do so. But, I have an indoor range 10 minutes away from me!
I shot 2 life times of blk pwdr in over 30yrs of shooting so, I know it rather well. When I got time to "scratch the itch again is when I learned things had changed in my co. The answer for me was conversions fitted to my favorite open top revolvers. That would be the Dragoon series. I view it as the best of both worlds! My favorite revolvers minus the clean up!
Not to mention, if I hadn't done this, I wouldn't be doing what I do today. So, they may mean a little more to me than the average Joe but, there's no reason really to over think this thing.

DD, yes, you could make/have made a cartridge cylinder out of the Dragoon cyl but why would you? If you did, it would remove the "convertible " aspect of it and end up with a lesser cylinder. The modern conversion cylinders are made from modern ballistic materials that can handle the modern cartridges. The frames are plenty strong enough as a support system for the cylinders. There's no need to throw safety out the window . . . . .

Mike
 
45 Dragoon why do you say your conversion cylinders are permanent. I suggested having one made, as you said you want one.
Take it out when you want BP CB put it back when you want cartridge. Yes I know the commercial conversion cylinders are strong enough, not sure about the factory cylinders.
I was inferring buy an extra dragoon cylinder and modify that one
 
DD,
Oh, I got ya! Thought you meant doing away with the cap cyl and making it a cartridge cylinder "from now on". Well, I don't ever even think about me shooting bp any more. Guess I just got my fill of it and the cleaning of it. Nevertheless, I still find the revolvers from that time to be the most fascinating. And, fortunately for me, the conversions were a natural progression and that allows me to still enjoy the revolvers I favor, shoot my reloads (reloading since about 1985/86) when I get a chance nowadays, bring um home, wipe um off and put I'm up!! Makes life simple!!
Mine are a permanent setup because they are very close tolerance (.0015" bbl/cyl clearance), very light action (right at a 3 lb hammer draw). Not sure they would function as a cap gun without a total rebuild. They do exactly what I intended them to do and it is a thrill every time I shoot them. I clean them maybe once a year and have a special " multi removable" thread locker type compound on the screws so they won't loosen when you shoot. They are pretty much 19th century open top style revolvers that will perform with some quite high end S.A.s of today.

Mike
 
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One thing I wish. Remington had offered a larger cylinder that would hold 50 gr. That would of been a nice revolver to own
 
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them. As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.
Click to expand...
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them. As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.
Click to expand...
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them. As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.
Click to expand...
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them. As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.
Click to expand...
 
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Try Imgur.com- never had an issue with them. As mentioned I have a Kirst converter- they specify lead bullets only, loaded to less than 1000 fps. This isn't because pressure might blow up the cylinder- it's because the forcing cones of C&B revolvers are generally not tempered. This means that jacketed or very high velocity ammo can crack the forcing cone, which will pretty much ruin your revolver. I've seen a gun this happened to- a .45 ACP converted 1858. The fellow shot cheap jacketed range loads through it and the forcing cone split after onIy a couple boxes. I stick to mild, pleasant to shoot loads in my Kirst-converted Remington- a 200gr. LRNFP at about 750 fps.
Click to expand...
 
First off, I don't get the repetitive posting so I'm not sure what the meaning is . . . . unless you stutter, in that case, I apologize. (Lol)

I may be wrong but I don't think any "normal" 45acp factory rounds exceed 1000 fps so I don't think the "cracked forcing cone" thing is a problem. (First I've heard of that) In fact, I think without looking at any reloading tables, they run around 750 -850 fps (?) with a 230 gr.lead bullet. Just as no 45C rounds with 250 gr bullets exceed 1000 fps.
The higher pressure of the acp is handled by the cylinder, the support system is fine. Same for the open top conversions. They aren't chambered in "Magnum" rounds so there shouldn't be much problem staying safe with a conversion cyl.

Mike
 
45 Dragoon said:
First off, I don't get the repetitive posting so I'm not sure what the meaning is . . . . unless you stutter, in that case, I apologize. (Lol)

I may be wrong but I don't think any "normal" 45acp factory rounds exceed 1000 fps so I don't think the "cracked forcing cone" thing is a problem. (First I've heard of that) In fact, I think without looking at any reloading tables, they run around 750 -850 fps (?) with a 230 gr.lead bullet. Just as no 45C rounds with 250 gr bullets exceed 1000 fps.
The higher pressure of the acp is handled by the cylinder, the support system is fine. Same for the open top conversions. They aren't chambered in "Magnum" rounds so there shouldn't be much problem staying safe with a conversion cyl.

Mike
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Sorry, safari browser on my phone went funny with replies so I had to download Chrome.

I wonder if the hardness of factory lead bullets (like the ultramax 230gr LRN 830 fps load) is much different than the round balls commonly available?
 
just guessing here. But I would guess one or more chambers are not in correct alignment with the forcing cone. the bullet is hitting the cone off centered, and if the projectile is also hardened just add to the problem
 
DD, I was thinking the same thing! The condition of cylinder/chamber alignment would play into f.c. problems for any revolver.
I know '72 open tops had a problem chambered in 45C early on but they fixed the problem. I've never heard of a problem with conversions in Remingtons.

Mike
 
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