1858 Conversion Cylinder

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BSA1

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Please forgive this thread. I have some questions about Conversion Cylinder for 1858 Pietta. I thought there was a thread recently about them but I can't find it. I never have any luck with the search function. I must not use the right key words.

If you know the thread please post the link.

Otherwise my questions are;

How accurate is the Pietta with the 45 Colt cylinder? What are the size of the cylinder throats and the barrel? .452 or .454" bullets?

I was always of the opinion that only low powered 45 Colt loads should be used with the Conversion. I thought I read a discussion about the strength of the cylinder and gun on THR (that's the thread I am trying to find) that said otherwise.

What power range with smokeless powder?

Any other comments always welcome.
 
I had one. This is the picture of a target at 25 yards using the 200 grain LC cowboy action loads,

The Uberti models will give you a dovetailed front sight, otherwise you have to get a 'target' model Pietta or the Pedersoli, to get their adjustable sight Remmy. That's one reason I like the Colts they can be adjusted by re-cutting the hammer sight.

attachment.php



That Remmy is right out of the box, so they're pretty accurate with the R&D conversion. I don't know anything about the Kirst conversion, never had one.
 
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BSA1,

My experience is with a '58 cap and ball Pietta with a Kirst conversion cylinder in .45 C.

The chamber at the face is a bit narrower to size the ball/bullet before it enters the forcing cone.

Therefore, a soft lead ball/bullet and a fairly light charge is necessary to keep the force on the frame to a minimum.

The cylinder itself is plenty stout, but the Italian repro frame is not.

Lots of fun and very accurate. 250 gr bullets shoot high, round balls hit spot-on.

I made the mistake of shooting a hard cast bullet with a full load of Swiss behind it and I thought the gun was going to fly out of my hand.

35 grains of BP behind a .454 round ball makes a nice cartridge to blast things at the range and not be hard on the frame.

A factory conversion would have the proper chamber/bore dimensions and give you greater flexibility with your loads.
 
BSA1, here's a link to Kirst's FAQ page -

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/FAQs.pdf

They specify a maximum pressure of 12,000 PSI - this is below the SAAMI standard - you are correct that the conversion cylinders are supposed to be used with reduced-power "cowboy" loads.
 
Well BSA, you lookin for a good Remmy???? :)

For ultimate accuracy with loose powder and ball loads, there's always the Hege. :what:
 
Howdy

First off, you need to know there are three different outfits making 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington, and they are all different.

There is the Kirst five shot version, the R&D six shot version, and the Howell Old West five shot version.

A little bit of history is involved here. It is physically impossible to bore six parallel 45 Colt chambers in a cylinder that will fit in the 1858 frame and not have the cartridge rims overlap. The distance from center of the cylinder to center of the bore simply will not allow it. So there have been three separate solutions to the problem. Kirst went with a five shot cylinder with a 'dummy' position. The five 'real' chambers are spaced so that rims will not overlap and the 'dummy' position takes up the sixth position. The ratchet teeth are arranged to allow for the different spacing. In addition, Kirst uses a spacer plate that is screwed into the frame with just one stationary firing pin. The beauty of the 1858 revolver is that it is quick and simple to pop the cylinder out for reloading, so if you want to pop the cylinder out every time you reload, that is not a problem. If you want to load through a loading gate, you must cut a groove into the frame where the loading position would be. There is no actual loading gate, the position of the cartridges when the gun is loaded keeps them from falling out. Just don't point it skyward when you cock the gun, or a round may try to fall out of the cylinder. Many of the original Remington conversions were done exactly this way.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?page=1

Kenny Howell had a different idea. He angled the chambers out ever so slightly, less than 1/2 of one degree, so that six 45 Colt chambers could be drilled and the rims would not overlap. Before you ask, no 1/2 of one degree makes absolutely no difference either safety wise or accuracy wise. The bullets make the transition from chamber to bore with no trouble at all. In addition, rather than using a spacer plate screwed to the frame, Kenny Howell used a separate cap for the cylinder that rotates with the cylinder. The cap has six separate firing pins, one for each chamber. With this design, you pop the cylinder out to reload, cutting a loading gate slot would not work. Again, since the cylinder pops out of the 1858 so easily, this is a very efficient system, pretty much the same as Clint Eastwood did it in Pale Rider. These cylinders were marketed under the name R&D and were marketed exclusively by Taylors. If you see them on sale from another distribution, they bought them from Taylors.

The idea for the angled chambers was different enough to be patented, and Kenny Howell patented his design. At some point, Taylors bought the patent from him. Taylors continues to sell these six shot, angled chambered cylinders, but they are manufactured by somebody other than Kenny Howell.


http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/conversion-cylinders-for-1858-remington-steel-frame-44-caliberbp.html

Lastly, fairly recently Kenny Howell himself decided to get back into the conversion cylinder business, but since he sold the patent for his six shot cylinders he can no longer produce them. So all the 45 Colt cylinders for the 1858 that Kenny Howell's Old West Conversions company sells are five shots, with a multiple firing pin cap similar to his old six shot design.


http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/shop/productinfo.cfm?catID=261&productid=818&cfid=2974143&cftoken=634c1f4b02ec14b7-2491C470-923F-0C65-30A44DDD655DCBDD

When I looked into this a bunch of years ago I decided to go with the six shot version being sold by Taylors.

RemmieandCylinder.jpg

That is an old EuroArms Remmie that I bought in 1975, it turns out the cylinder for a Pietta fit it just fine. Yes, there are slightly different chamber spacings for the Pietta and Uberti versions. There was another one for the Ruger Old Army.

The chamber throats on this cylinder are right on the money at .452. The actual groove diameter of my old Remmie is .449, rather than .451, so I always shoot bullets sized to .452 in it. I always shoot it with Black Powder, either 45 Colt with about 35 grains of FFg and a 250 grain soft lead bullet, or 45 Schofield with about 28 grains of FFg and a 200 grain soft lead bullet. I usually use the Schofield load as it stresses the frame less at the very thin cross section where the loading lever passes through the frame. These cylinders are made of modern arsenal steel, and are stronger than the original C&B cylinders. It is specifically recommended to stay with 'cowboy loads' if you are going to shoot Smokeless in them. No hot stuff, and lead bullets only! As far as tolerances are concerned, I have two Remmies equipped with these cylinders, and they are the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own, more accurate than my real Colts, Rugers, or clones. This is because the tolerances on the chambers are very tight. I actually use one of these cylinders as a cartridge gauge when loading 45 Colt. If a round drops into them, I know it will drop into the more loosely toleranced chambers of a Colt, Ruger, or clone.
 
I have an R&D 6-shot conversion cylinder in a Pietta 1858. Using Missouri Bullet bullets handloaded, frankly it is the most accurate revolver I own. With care at 25 yards, shots touch each other. The conversion is more accurate than the gun was with BP and balls or mini balls.
 
I have one of the Taylors conversions as well. I shoot it more with black powder but I do have a light smokeless load for it using trailboss and it works great either way. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a load that works but obviously it's nice to be able to chrono the results as a sanity check that you have some idea what's going on in there (not a direct measurement of pressure obviously, but it's something).
 
I read that you should use slightly lighter loads in the 6-shot cylinders vs. the 5-shots because of the 6th chamber, there's really not a whole lot of metal left in between them.

Either way if Taylor's would just make the 6-shot cylinders with a gate, I'd just have to upgrade from my 38SPL. Kirst conversion. Really would like the extra bang of the .45 but want a proper conversion that I don't have to remove the cylinder to reload every time and a 5-shot revolver just ain't right.
 
I just signed on to the forum and I would really like some help here or point me to the right thread I am lost. Does anyone have a recipe for the 45 Colt Cowboy loads, you know the 850 fps or less kind for the low pressure type bullets that are used in the Taylors & Co R&D conversion Cylinders. What's your recipe for 45 Long Colt Cowboy action reloads? Can anyone please help ?
 
Are you talking about a recipe for smokeless or blackpowder .45. To the OP, yes some people have used standard loads on there conversion. While it will not explode or anything nearly as dramatic you could potentially lose your loading lever or bulge the forcing cone. Cowboy action loads smokeless loads or authentic blackpowder cartridges are what they'll tell you to use. The 6 shot Taylor's (what I used to have) actually angles each chamber a fraction of a degree off center to allow adequate spacing for all 6 chambers. I spoke with Taylor's years ago when I had my Pietta 1858 about this exact issue. They assured my that there cylinder's would support the pressure of any .45 LC, but the gun itself is what would be in jeopardy.
 
I read that you should use slightly lighter loads in the 6-shot cylinders vs. the 5-shots because of the 6th chamber, there's really not a whole lot of metal left in between them.

Interesting. Can you state where you read that? When a revolver cylinder fails, it usually fails at the thin cross section between the cylinder locking notches and a chamber, not at the walls between chambers. With the Kirst cylinders, the chambers are spaced so that the wall between chambers is just about as thin as the chamber walls with a six shot cylinder. With the Ken Howell five shot cylinders, the chamber walls are thicker, but the cross section between chamber locking notches and the chambers is still the thinnest cross section on the cylinder and still the most likely candidate for failure of the cylinder. This is true of almost all single action revolvers, including the Colt SAA. In addition, the notch provides a perfect stress riser where failure can occur. This is why Ruger moved the notches on their revolvers so notch is not directly over the chamber. Regardless, I would not put cartridges into a five shot cylinder that are any more powerful than I would put into a six shot cylinder.

Either way if Taylor's would just make the 6-shot cylinders with a gate, I'd just have to upgrade from my 38SPL. Kirst conversion. Really would like the extra bang of the .45 but want a proper conversion that I don't have to remove the cylinder to reload every time and a 5-shot revolver just ain't right.

If you study my photo you will see it is impossible to use a loading gate with the Taylors cylinder. The cap rotates with the cylinder. Cutting a loading gate would be self defeating. There is another thing to consider. When I was looking into conversion cylinders for C&B revolvers a bunch of years ago, there was a great deal of discussion about a little known ATF requirement. If you do not alter the firearm frame, but can pop the standard C&B cylinder back into the gun and it still functions as a C&B, then you have not altered its non-firearm status in the eyes of the Federal Government. Pop the C&B cylinder back in when you are done shooting and you still have a non-firearm C&B revolver. However if you modify the frame to allow the gun to accept cartridges, then you have irrevocably altered what was a non-firearm into a firearm. You are allowed to do this for your own personal use, but you are not allowed to ever sell the altered gun. No, I cannot quote you where this statute exists, I may even be wrong. But this was discussed at great length in Cowboy Shooting circles years ago, and that was part of the reason I decided to go with the R&D (Taylors) cylinder that does not require any modification to the frame. Besides, with practice I can pop the cylinder out of my 1858s, unload them and reload them much faster than I can with a conventional SAA through the loading gate. Just like Clint.

Are you talking about a recipe for smokeless or blackpowder .45. To the OP, yes some people have used standard loads on there conversion. While it will not explode or anything nearly as dramatic you could potentially lose your loading lever or bulge the forcing cone. Cowboy action loads smokeless loads or authentic blackpowder cartridges are what they'll tell you to use. The 6 shot Taylor's (what I used to have) actually angles each chamber a fraction of a degree off center to allow adequate spacing for all 6 chambers. I spoke with Taylor's years ago when I had my Pietta 1858 about this exact issue. They assured my that there cylinder's would support the pressure of any .45 LC, but the gun itself is what would be in jeopardy.

I have never heard of any of those things happening to a conversion cylinder equipped 1858. As I said in my earlier post, my concern was the area of the frame where the loading lever goes through the frame leaving two very thin cross sections on either side. I was afraid that continued pounding from heavily loaded 45 Colt Black Powder loads could eventually crack the frame in this area. You can see how thin the steel is here.

framethincrosssection_zpsa3d08704.jpg



As a matter of fact I designed a special 200 grain Black Powder bullet that eventually became very popular with Black Powder CAS shooters. It is known as the J/P-200 Big Lube bullet. That is the bullet I use in my 45 Schofield loads for my conversion cylinder equipped 1858 Remmies. Here is a photo of the components for my Schofield load, 45 Schofield case, 200 grain J/P-200 Big Lube bullet and 1.9CC (about 28 grains) of FFg.

45ScofieldComponents_zps41fac52a.jpg

I just signed on to the forum and I would really like some help here or point me to the right thread I am lost. Does anyone have a recipe for the 45 Colt Cowboy loads, you know the 850 fps or less kind for the low pressure type bullets that are used in the Taylors & Co R&D conversion Cylinders. What's your recipe for 45 Long Colt Cowboy action reloads? Can anyone please help ?

Howdy again. Unfortunately, there is no official SAAMI spec for Cowboy Loads in any caliber. SAAMI Max pressure for the 45 Colt round is 14,000 psi, if I recall correctly. The bit about 850 fps is a bit misleading, as it is pressure, not velocity that decides whether or not a cylinder will blow up. 850 fps with one powder may develop a very different pressure than 850 fps with another powder. As I said, there is no official SAAMI data on cowboy loads at all. Having said that, many reloading manuals and powder manufacturers will have a specific section listing 'cowboy data'.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/index.aspx



If you go to the Hodgdon website, you will have to wade through some data. For Cowboy loads for 45 Colt, I would start with a 200 (or less) grain bullet, and bring up the data. Then I would look at the starting loads, and go with one of those.

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html


However, I will add that in the Cowboy Action Shooting world, many shooters go well below the recommended starting loads. I do not recommend this, big, cavernous cases like 45 Colt can perform erratically with very light loads. You might wind up with a bullet stuck in the barrel, I have seen it happen.

P.S Some ammo manufacturers make Cowboy loads. Black Hills and Ultra Max make Cowboy Loads. But with the present shortage of ammo, good luck finding any.
 
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I won't be "street legal" to sell on this forum till Veterans Day, so my four new R&D cylinders (3 each 45 Colt & 1 each 38 special) will have to just stay in their plastic boxes.

Look for the ad in The Trading Post around the 11th of November.

If announcing something for sale in a post is against the rules, just delete this with my apologies. I looked in the Rules section & FAQ for guidance. I'm the "new kid on this block".
 
re: loads - if you can get some you might look into trail boss powder. It's bulky for its weight (actually little donut shapes) and you don't quite get that "little pinch of powder way down there" effect you might get with titegroup or similar.

Trailboss is made by IMR and you can get the data on the Hodgdon link above. Their FPS is pretty close to what I was seeing and they give pressures as well. With a 250gr cast bullet I find something in the 650-700fps range is pleasant to shoot, accurate, and the pressures should have a large margin of error according to Hodgdon.
 
My Howell conversion in my Pietta 5.5" Remmy is as accurate as ball, about 2.5" at 25 yards and shoots to the same POA. Now, MINE is in .45ACP and I shoot cast lead 200 grain SWCs over 5.0 grains Bullseye which give me about 900 fps out of my Ruger KP90DC, haven't chronographed the Pietta. Warnings with the cylinder stated LEAD non-jacketed bullets only, no faster than 1000 fps.

With .45 Colt cylinders, I'd stick to cowboy action loads, no hotter. I load a 255 grain bullet over 8.3 grains of Unique for my plinker load in my Ruger Blackhawk, but I'm afraid it'd be too much for the Pietta. This is why I got the .45ACP cylinder, already had a load waiting for it. and there'll be no confusion as to which round is what when I go out to shoot it. It was a safety consideration for me. My HOT hunting load for the Ruger is a jacketed 300 grain XTP HP, so I wouldn't likely mess THAT up, but the Unique load is more'n I'd want to shoot in the Pietta.

For reloading, I'd take EljaySL's advice for Trailboss and load. :D
 
I have never heard of any of those things happening to a conversion cylinder equipped 1858

Not sure if your familiar with duelist1954 on youtube but he mentioned he had lost a loading lever lock nut under the barrel from using regular federal .45 colt on a uberti. There is no risk if your using cowboy action loads, and definately none from blackpowder loaded cartridges. I have also heard from some people who have used full charge standard .45LC for years in their Pietta's and had no problems.

I would imagine frame wear would stack up a bit faster, but we would be taking 1000s of rounds down the road. I'd stay away from anything hot loaded and definitely anything P+ of course. Chances are you could go a bit hotter the cowboy action loads and be fine, but I'm sure the lawyers wanted to play it safe on this one. Thats and its easier to understand cowboy action instead of an exact fps or powder charge size.

How tight is the lockup on your loading lever, does it rattle around just from shaking it. I have never heard of damage to loading lever slot from heavy loads, but I could potentially see it if the loading lever was really loose, otherwise I probably wouldn't worry about it.

I had 2 Pietta 1858s and for some reason, only one worked with the conversion cylinder, the other one did a dangerous back-pedal just before the hammer came down. So it seems the Pietta's have as much variation in exact dimensions as some of the original 1858s.
 
Actually, I am very familiar with duelist1954. His Cowboy alias is Bottom Dealing Mike. I sent him a message questioning what happened. He replied that the loading lever catch at the end of the barrel popped out of its hole. He was shooting some fairly heavy Smokeless loads at the time, and he felt that even though the cylinder could handle the loads, the gun could not. That's why the latch shook loose. Like me, Mike only shoots Black Powder in his conversion cylinders now.

My concern with the area of the frame where the loading lever pops through has nothing to do with the lever itself. My concern is that the cross section of the frame is so thin in that area that repeated pounding from the concussion of heavy loads could possibly crack the steel. That is why I shoot 45 Schofield rounds with 200 grain bullets in my conversion cylinders. They will stress the steel of the frame less than the pounding of a full house 250 grain Black Powder 45 Colt load. And the shape of the 1858 Remington grip is slightly different than a SAA. Although I can shoot a SAA all day long with full power 45 Colt loads, the recoil from the Remington is a bit uncomfortable with the same loads. So I shoot the slightly less powerful Schofield rounds.
 
Driftwood,

Where do I get your bullet or better yet a mold (2 gang is fine)?

What do you size the bullet at?

Finally are you using Lee dippers for your b/p?

I keep talking myself out of the Conversion cylinder as I don't have any practical use for it but it keeps looking like a lot of fun to play with.
 
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BSA1

You can find molds for my bullet at Dick Dastardly's Big Lube website. The molds are six cavity molds. The bullet has been changed slightly from when I designed it, it is now a 210 grain bullet, but it is still essentially the same design.

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=71852f19-e55b-4d6f-aadc-4f3b186e6e27

I size them to .452. I used to use Lee dippers for my Black Powder loads, but these days I use a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on my Hornady Lock and Load AP.

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure01.jpg



I buy old Lyman 55 powder measures when I find them at white elephant tables. I remove the rotors and I keep them set for the various powder charges that I normally load.

LymanPowderRotors.jpg

I still use my Lee dippers when I don't have a rotor set up for a specific cartridge.
 
Regarding cutting a loading gate into a frame to allow cartridges to be loaded, this is said by our esteemed pard Driftwood:

"You are allowed to do this for your own personal use, but you are not allowed to ever sell the altered gun."


Not exactly.

You are allowed to do this for your own use, and you *are* allowed to sell it later. You just can't do it with the intent to sell it when you modify it. This has been a subject gone over at great length by many, and a reading of the BATFE rules make it clear. So file away if you want to use a gated conversion.


Conversion cylinders are a LOT of fun, and the 1858 makes using them easy. Love mine.



Willie

.
 
Howdy Again

I stand corrected on the legality.

By the way, yesterday I got a chance to examine an original 1858 Remington that had been converted to firing cartridges. Probably one of the ones converted by the factory under license by the S&W controlled Rollin White patent.

Looked just like this, with a thin backing plate secured to the frame, the cylinder had been shortened, removing the area where the nipples had formerly been.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_1858#mediaviewer/File:Remington_Conversion.JPG
 
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