1858 Conversion Cylinder

[Electrahog]

Whats your 1858 Conversion Recipe for Smokeless?

Anyone have a Red Dot Recipe for the 1858 R&D Conversion Cylinder they would care to share?

 

[Willie Sutton]

"By the way, yesterday I got a chance to examine an original 1858 Remington that had been converted to firing cartridges. Probably one of the ones converted by the factory under license by the S&W controlled Rollin White patent."

Very nice... these things are really interesting, aren't they?


Willie

.

 

[Electrahog]

Are you talking about a recipe for smokeless or blackpowder .45. To the OP, yes some people have used standard loads on there conversion. While it will not explode or anything nearly as dramatic you could potentially lose your loading lever or bulge the forcing cone. Cowboy action loads smokeless loads or authentic blackpowder cartridges are what they'll tell you to use. The 6 shot Taylor's (what I used to have) actually angles each chamber a fraction of a degree off center to allow adequate spacing for all 6 chambers. I spoke with Taylor's years ago when I had my Pietta 1858 about this exact issue. They assured my that there cylinder's would support the pressure of any .45 LC, but the gun itself is what would be in jeopardy.

Smokeless Low pressure cowboy loads.

 

[Electrahog]

"By the way, yesterday I got a chance to examine an original 1858 Remington that had been converted to firing cartridges. Probably one of the ones converted by the factory under license by the S&W controlled Rollin White patent."

Very nice... these things are really interesting, aren't they?


Willie

.

I think so, I love the design of the Remington 1858 never did like having to pull a pin out just to remove the cylinder.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Hmmmm. How do you get a cylinder out of the Remy? I have to pull a base pin . . . .



Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

 

[45 Dragoon]

Also, all my Colt style open tops have gated (read "proper",because of the design) conversions installed.so, no need to remove the cylinder except for cleaning.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

 

[Electrahog]

Also, all my Colt style open tops have gated (read "proper",because of the design) conversions installed.so, no need to remove the cylinder except for cleaning.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

I was to poor to buy a factory conversion, so I used a R&D that Taylors and Co Sells and that's how I get the Cylinder out. Your Kidding Right?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

With a Colt style C&B, it makes sense to have a loading gate for a cartridge conversion cylinder because otherwise you would have to drive the wedge out and remove the barrel every time you loaded or reloaded it.

But it is so quick and simple to remove the cylinder from a Remington that it makes sense to just pop the cylinder out to reload. Put the hammer at half cock, drop the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, roll the cylinder out into your hand. Pop out the empties and drop in five fresh rounds. Roll the cylinder back into the frame, push the cylinder pin back in place and latch the loading lever. I can reload a Remmie with cartridges faster than I can a Colt because like any single action revolver, with a Colt you have to pop the empties out and reload one chamber at a time.

 

[Electrahog]

Howdy Again

With a Colt style C&B, it makes sense to have a loading gate for a cartridge conversion cylinder because otherwise you would have to drive the wedge out and remove the barrel every time you loaded or reloaded it.

But it is so quick and simple to remove the cylinder from a Remington that it makes sense to just pop the cylinder out to reload. Put the hammer at half cock, drop the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, roll the cylinder out into your hand. Pop out the empties and drop in five fresh rounds. Roll the cylinder back into the frame, push the cylinder pin back in place and latch the loading lever. I can reload a Remmie with cartridges faster than I can a Colt because like any single action revolver, with a Colt you have to pop the empties out and reload one chamber at a time.

Do you think it is possible to use Red Dot in a Remington 1858 Uberti that has the Taylors & Co. R&D Conversion Cylinder in it for light pressure cowboy loads?

 

[45 Dragoon]

Electrahog,
In post 29 you said you never liked pulling the pin to remove a cylinder. I was teasing you because you HAVE to pull a pin (base pin) on a Remy or pull a wedge on a Colt /style to pull the cyl.
I shoot reg. factory rounds in my Dragoons/Walker, 1860 (Pietta) and Remmington with R&D 6 shot cyl. No probs. The frames of these guns are forged (the Dragoons and Walker are so big, I dont think that would even matter) the barrels have a fast twist suitable for .45 Colt and all tend to be quite accurate. My reloads are put together just as if I were loading for a new Colt right from the factory.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Do you think it is possible to use Red Dot in a Remington 1858 Uberti that has the Taylors & Co. R&D Conversion Cylinder in it for light pressure cowboy loads?

Disclaimer: You asked my opinion, and this is just an opinion, worth exactly how much you paid for it.

Yes and no on Red Dot in 45 Colt. If you could find official data for cowboy loads using Red Dot in 45 Colt, then I would say yes. Unfortunately, there is not much official data for Red Dot in 45 Colt. No, I do not recommend wild catting unless you have many years of experience reloading.

Red Dot is made by Alliant. If you go to their website you can enter their on line reloading guide.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx

Alliant's data for Cowboy Action loads only lists three loads for 45 Colt, all using a 230 grain bullet. Bullseye, American Select, and Unique are the only powders listed, and frankly I think their charges are a little bit on the high side. I just searched my manuals, and I only found two recipes for Red Dot in 45 Colt in my well thumbed Lyman Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook, 2nd edition. No, I am not going to tell you what they are, you should look them up for yourself. Never trust data you get from an unofficial source over the internet, you never know what typos may be included.

With Alliant products I would have no problem with any starting loads published for Unique in 45 Colt. There is lots of data available on Unique.

Hodgdon (the maker of Trailboss) has a much better on line data website.

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

You simply choose what type of round you want; pistol, rifle , or shotgun, then select the cartridge. You can select the bullet weight too. I would stick with 200, 215, and 225 grain bullets for cowboy loads. The beauty of the Hodgdon site is it gives you both pressure and velocity for starting loads as well as max loads. Check out Trailboss starting loads. I would be comfortable with anything down around 8000 psi in a Remington with a conversion cylinder. Remember what I said some time ago. Velocity alone tells you nothing about how safe a particular load may be for a particular firearm. Pressure is the important thing to bear in mind to be safe.

P.S. Reading between the lines now. I suspect you like Red Dot because that is what you have available. In better times when powder was more available than it is now, I always recommended not trying to make the one or two powders you like fit all purposes. Use the right powder for the right purpose. I would not hesitate to put starting loads of Unique or Trailboss in a Remington 1858 fitted with a conversion cylinder. At some point in the past I put some of my own light Unique loads through one of my Remingtons. No, I am not going to tell you the load, data is easily available. See if you can find some Unique or Trailboss.

 

[Electrahog]

Disclaimer: You asked my opinion, and this is just an opinion, worth exactly how much you paid for it.

Yes and no on Red Dot in 45 Colt. If you could find official data for cowboy loads using Red Dot in 45 Colt, then I would say yes. Unfortunately, there is not much official data for Red Dot in 45 Colt. No, I do not recommend wild catting unless you have many years of experience reloading.

Red Dot is made by Alliant. If you go to their website you can enter their on line reloading guide.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx

Alliant's data for Cowboy Action loads only lists three loads for 45 Colt, all using a 230 grain bullet. Bullseye, American Select, and Unique are the only powders listed, and frankly I think their charges are a little bit on the high side. I just searched my manuals, and I only found two recipes for Red Dot in 45 Colt in my well thumbed Lyman Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook, 2nd edition. No, I am not going to tell you what they are, you should look them up for yourself. Never trust data you get from an unofficial source over the internet, you never know what typos may be included.

With Alliant products I would have no problem with any starting loads published for Unique in 45 Colt. There is lots of data available on Unique.

Hodgdon (the maker of Trailboss) has a much better on line data website.

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

You simply choose what type of round you want; pistol, rifle , or shotgun, then select the cartridge. You can select the bullet weight too. I would stick with 200, 215, and 225 grain bullets for cowboy loads. The beauty of the Hodgdon site is it gives you both pressure and velocity for starting loads as well as max loads. Check out Trailboss starting loads. I would be comfortable with anything down around 8000 psi in a Remington with a conversion cylinder. Remember what I said some time ago. Velocity alone tells you nothing about how safe a particular load may be for a particular firearm. Pressure is the important thing to bear in mind to be safe.

P.S. Reading between the lines now. I suspect you like Red Dot because that is what you have available. In better times when powder was more available than it is now, I always recommended not trying to make the one or two powders you like fit all purposes. Use the right powder for the right purpose. I would not hesitate to put starting loads of Unique or Trailboss in a Remington 1858 fitted with a conversion cylinder. At some point in the past I put some of my own light Unique loads through one of my Remingtons. No, I am not going to tell you the load, data is easily available. See if you can find some Unique or Trailboss.

I am new to reloading but I understand what your saying, man there just isn't no powder to be found right now.

This is the information I was going by but it's not up to date: Could you have a look and see what you think, I really would appreciate the advice.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...woHQBw&usg=AFQjCNE4_7kGMY72MitQcGHri1fmSjNz6w

I don't have a Lyman reloading book only the Lee 2nd edition and it doesn't say anything about 45cowboy loads that I could find unless I overlooked it.

I have a bench full of new reloading equipment and no powder to do the job with except Red Dot, how frustrating is that?

Thanks for your help I appreciate it, you sound like your knowledgeable that's a good thing for sure.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Turns out I have a hard copy of that Alliant data from 2005. It has the identical data that you have, at least for Red Dot. The Cowboy data in that Alliant publication is a teeny bit hotter than the loads in my Lyman book, at least for 250 grain bullets. And it is a bit lighter than the data for standard loads in Lee.

That is the problem with 'cowboy data'. Since there are no official SAAMI specs for cowboy loads regarding pressure, each powder manufacturer just takes a guess at what cowboy loads should be. I am sure the powder manufacturers have records of the pressure data, but they do not share it with the public.

Bottom line is, you can usually use most powder manufacturer's starting loads for cowboy loads. The whole point of cowboy loads is to generate as little recoil as possible for fast repeat shots. Most cowboy shooters are not particularly concerned with pressure, they just want to shoot fast. In fact many CAS shooters will make up loads significantly below manufacturer's suggested starting loads. I do not recommend you do that, particularly if you are a beginner. For peak accuracy, some powders require a relatively heavy load, Unique does. Again, for a conversion cylinder in a C&B revolver I strongly suggest you do not do that.

I have to caution you that I have absolutely no experience loading Red Dot in metallic cases, all my experience with it has been in shotguns. Did not mean to lead you down a garden path. But comparing the cowboy data in the Alliant publication to data in some other manuals tells me that you should be OK with the Red Dot data in your conversion cylinder, as long as you stay down near the starting loads. I suggest you try the 200 grain or 225 grain starting loads if you have those bullets available. The 250 grain starting loads are probably fine but might generate a bit more recoil than you want to deal with.

 

[Electrahog]

Howdy Again

Turns out I have a hard copy of that Alliant data from 2005. It has the identical data that you have, at least for Red Dot. The Cowboy data in that Alliant publication is a teeny bit hotter than the loads in my Lyman book, at least for 250 grain bullets. And it is a bit lighter than the data for standard loads in Lee.

That is the problem with 'cowboy data'. Since there are no official SAAMI specs for cowboy loads regarding pressure, each powder manufacturer just takes a guess at what cowboy loads should be. I am sure the powder manufacturers have records of the pressure data, but they do not share it with the public.

Bottom line is, you can usually use most powder manufacturer's starting loads for cowboy loads. The whole point of cowboy loads is to generate as little recoil as possible for fast repeat shots. Most cowboy shooters are not particularly concerned with pressure, they just want to shoot fast. In fact many CAS shooters will make up loads significantly below manufacturer's suggested starting loads. I do not recommend you do that, particularly if you are a beginner. For peak accuracy, some powders require a relatively heavy load, Unique does. Again, for a conversion cylinder in a C&B revolver I strongly suggest you do not do that.

I have to caution you that I have absolutely no experience loading Red Dot in metallic cases, all my experience with it has been in shotguns. Did not mean to lead you down a garden path. But comparing the cowboy data in the Alliant publication to data in some other manuals tells me that you should be OK with the Red Dot data in your conversion cylinder, as long as you stay down near the starting loads. I suggest you try the 200 grain or 225 grain starting loads if you have those bullets available. The 250 grain starting loads are probably fine but might generate a bit more recoil than you want to deal with.

Well I found some Bullseye when I went to pick up the Red Dot so I backed away from the RD and Bought the Bullseye instead at least it has an up to date recipe for the Cowboy loading Data, but now I read that the RD has Bigger flaked powder and will fill the big case better then the BE, so should I have bought the RD instead ? (yep I'm confused) Just one other thing does the case matter that much, they recommend the Winchester case and I have the Hornady case. Thanks for your time I appreciate it

 

[EljaySL]

The brand of the brass is of no real significance.

The right answer on the Bullseye is that there's no rule of thumb, you need to find somebody's load data. The somewhat less right answer is that since you're moving to a lighter bullet you're moving in the direction of safety and nothing bad should happen if you use the same amount of powder.

 

[Electrahog]

The brand of the brass is of no real significance.

The right answer on the Bullseye is that there's no rule of thumb, you need to find somebody's load data. The somewhat less right answer is that since you're moving to a lighter bullet you're moving in the direction of safety and nothing bad should happen if you use the same amount of powder.

Thanks for the reply, so I am somewhat correct that a heaver bullet will use less of a load and a lighter bullet will use a heaver load? The Alliant websight has a cowboy data load specifically for the 45 colt using Bullseye powder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks for the reply, so I am somewhat correct that a heaver bullet will use less of a load and a lighter bullet will use a heaver load? The Alliant websight has a cowboy data load specifically for the 45 colt using Bullseye powder.

Howdy again

Here is how it works. It all gets back to pressure. A heavier bullet will be more resistant to moving than a lighter bullet simply because of inertia. So with the same powder charge a heavier bullet will generate more pressure than a lighter bullet. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) sets standards for the Maximum allowable pressure for each cartridge. The SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi, if I recall correctly. Because of its resistance to moving, the SAAMI Max with any cartridge will be reached with a smaller charge of powder for a heavier bullet than for a lighter bullet.

You really need to buy a decent loading manual. One that shows lots and lots of loads. More than you are going to get on any powder company's website of in any of the free handouts that you can pickup. Spend a few dollars. Don't be in a hurry to start loading until you have the correct information. I recommend the Lyman Reloading Manual, currently in its 49th edition. You can buy it lots of places, including on line. As I said before, the starting loads (lowest pressure) loads for just about any cartridge can be used for cowboy loads and will be safe in your conversion cylinder. I am not going to go out on a limb and interpolate what a safe load will be with a particular bullet and powder if it is not listed, and you certainly should not.

One other thing. If you don't see a particular powder listed for a particular cartridge and bullet weight, there is usually a good reason. That powder is probably not suitable for that cartridge and bullet weight.

 

[Electrahog]

Howdy again

Here is how it works. It all gets back to pressure. A heavier bullet will be more resistant to moving than a lighter bullet simply because of inertia. So with the same powder charge a heavier bullet will generate more pressure than a lighter bullet. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) sets standards for the Maximum allowable pressure for each cartridge. The SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi, if I recall correctly. Because of its resistance to moving, the SAAMI Max with any cartridge will be reached with a smaller charge of powder for a heavier bullet than for a lighter bullet.

You really need to buy a decent loading manual. One that shows lots and lots of loads. More than you are going to get on any powder company's website of in any of the free handouts that you can pickup. Spend a few dollars. Don't be in a hurry to start loading until you have the correct information. I recommend the Lyman Reloading Manual, currently in its 49th edition. You can buy it lots of places, including on line. As I said before, the starting loads (lowest pressure) loads for just about any cartridge can be used for cowboy loads and will be safe in your conversion cylinder. I am not going to go out on a limb and interpolate what a safe load will be with a particular bullet and powder if it is not listed, and you certainly should not.

One other thing. If you don't see a particular powder listed for a particular cartridge and bullet weight, there is usually a good reason. That powder is probably not suitable for that cartridge and bullet weight.

Question the recipe for Alliant Bullseye recommends a 230 gr Projectile at 6 grains of powder = 815 FPS. I would rather use a 200 gr projectile so I wonder how much I would modify the powder load to compensate for the difference of the lighter bullet? It seems that a heaver bullet uses less powder and a lighter bullet uses more from what I can tell. And since you know about the R&D Conversion, I thought you might could answer this for me, i really do appreciate it. Do you think Red Dot is a better choice then the Bullseye powder for the 45 colt as far as position and effectiveness ?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Question the recipe for Alliant Bullseye recommends a 230 gr Projectile at 6 grains of powder = 815 FPS. I would rather use a 200 gr projectile so I wonder how much I would modify the powder load to compensate for the difference of the lighter bullet? It seems that a heaver bullet uses less powder and a lighter bullet uses more from what I can tell. And since you know about the R&D Conversion, I thought you might could answer this for me, i really do appreciate it. Do you think Red Dot is a better choice then the Bullseye powder for the 45 colt as far as position and effectiveness ?

I'm getting a little bit tired of saying this. You are a beginner. Do not attempt to modify published loads until you have a lot of experience under your belt. If you can't find the load you want with the specific powder and bullet you want, choose another bullet or powder. Yes, I know powder is hard to find now, but that is my advice.

Personally I have never liked Bullseye. It is the favorite of many, many shooters, particularly with 38 Special and 45 ACP, but I have never felt comfortable using it. Bullseye is the fastest powder made. Many shooters like it because it it is very economical and and requires smaller charges than most other powders. The problem with Bullseye, at least from my perspective, is it has a very narrow range of charge weights from min to Max. An error of a few tenths of a grain could easily put one over the Max charge. That is why I like Unique. Much wider range of charge weights, and it is bulkier, so it takes up more volume in the case. An accidental double charge is easier to spot. Given the choice between Bullseye and Red Dot, I would choose Red Dot, but only if I could find appropriate published data for the cartridge and bullet combination I want to make.

 

[BSA1]

Listen to Driftwood. I don't use Bullseye for the same reason he doesn't. I have seen three handguns blow up at CAS matches due to probable double charges using fast burning powders and one mystery incident that split the barrel.

Inexpensive used reloading manuals are easy to find on eBay. I have old ones going back to the 1930's.

 

[Electrahog]

I'm getting a little bit tired of saying this. You are a beginner. Do not attempt to modify published loads until you have a lot of experience under your belt. If you can't find the load you want with the specific powder and bullet you want, choose another bullet or powder. Yes, I know powder is hard to find now, but that is my advice.

Personally I have never liked Bullseye. It is the favorite of many, many shooters, particularly with 38 Special and 45 ACP, but I have never felt comfortable using it. Bullseye is the fastest powder made. Many shooters like it because it it is very economical and and requires smaller charges than most other powders. The problem with Bullseye, at least from my perspective, is it has a very narrow range of charge weights from min to Max. An error of a few tenths of a grain could easily put one over the Max charge. That is why I like Unique. Much wider range of charge weights, and it is bulkier, so it takes up more volume in the case. An accidental double charge is easier to spot. Given the choice between Bullseye and Red Dot, I would choose Red Dot, but only if I could find appropriate published data for the cartridge and bullet combination I want to make.

Yea your right since there is no powder to buy that is correct one to use, I am selling this equipment and forgetting it. The aggravation of this is just not worth saving any money, it's easer to just be robbed buy the people selling the dam bullets and forget the frustration of learning! Not enough good data for the powder that is available and to many variations of opinions on what's correct and what's not. Now you don't have to say anything about it to me anymore nether does anyone else.

 

[EljaySL]

If you're that impatient and easily frustrated you probably shouldn't get into reloading.

re: your earlier question - "so I am somewhat correct that a heaver bullet will use less of a load and a lighter bullet will use a heaver load?"

It's more like the lighter bullet gets moving faster so the pressure buildup works differently and you can go a bit heavier with the powder and maintain a level of safety. With a heavier bullet you have to be more careful because the pressure's going to build up before it starts moving. So you'll notice heavier bullets have lower max loads but that doesn't let you predict the load if you don't have load data.

I was using Bullseye in my 45 Colt conversion cylinder with 255gr cast bullets until I managed to find some Trail Boss. But I kept the load very low (I think I was around 650-700fps) and I was never comfortable with the possibility of double, even triple loads fitting in the case. It's just not a very newbie friendly situation, especially for somebody who resists sticking to the load manuals.

I've loaded... not vast numbers of rounds compared to some people but somewhere in the 15K - 20K range total, both handgun and rifle. And just yesterday I let myself get distracted and I charged a .30-06 round twice because instead of checking if there was powder in there I just dumped another batch down there like a moron. Can you imagine shooting a double load .30-06?

Know what happened?

Powder spilled EVERYWHERE because I never use a load that fills less than half the case. Kind of hard to miss when that happens. When you don't have layers of protection like that even a single mistake - one single moment of distraction - and you could be making yourself a little grenade.

 

[dickydalton]

Yea your right since there is no powder to buy that is correct one to use, I am selling this equipment and forgetting it. The aggravation of this is just not worth saving any money, it's easer to just be robbed buy the people selling the dam bullets and forget the frustration of learning! Not enough good data for the powder that is available and to many variations of opinions on what's correct and what's not. Now you don't have to say anything about it to me anymore nether does anyone else.

Yours
is defiantly a LOW ROAD Post.
If you are too cheap to learn properly then you shouldn't reload.
Driftwood probably saved your life.

 

[goon]

Yea your right since there is no powder to buy that is correct one to use, I am selling this equipment and forgetting it. The aggravation of this is just not worth saving any money, it's easer to just be robbed buy the people selling the dam bullets and forget the frustration of learning! Not enough good data for the powder that is available and to many variations of opinions on what's correct and what's not. Now you don't have to say anything about it to me anymore nether does anyone else.

The only opinions that matter are the ones who want to keep your hands and face attached to your body, and that is what Driftwood and others who tell you to stick to tested loading data from a manual are doing. Reloading isn't difficult or unsafe, but it takes some care and following the rules.

I've used Unique in a lot of different cartridges and though it's a little dirty, it does work fairly well in many handgun rounds. If you're looking to have only one powder on hand, I'd try getting a pound of Unique before you give up. Finding the right powder right now is like finding ammunition - get it when it's there and buy as much as they'll let you leave the store with.

 

[BSA1]

Driftwood,

Getting back to my original topic how well does a 44 COLT conversion cylinder work in the 1858?