.358 Winchester?

I don't know. It seems it should have been a real winner.Takes the place of the old .33 and .348 Win(I have one of these) and way better than the old .35 Rem. I always wanted one but not now.

This is a question that has been asked many, many times. Probably a combination of poor marketing, low velocity and high recoil. 35's generally aren't a popular rifle caliber, it's anybody's guess why.

I'd love to have one in a 99 or 88 lever-gun. I'm pretty sure there was a guy that posted an AR-10 build here using the 358 Win.

ive got an old 760 converted to .358 ive only shot 158 grain cast out of it, TONS of fun !

I decided recently that I need to build one. I love the idea of being able to use 357 bullets for small game and no recoil and then loading some heavy thumpers for big game in the woods and being based on 308 is perfect for me.

Maybe when bullet tech wasn’t as refined and consistent as today the 35 caliber was more popular but at that time the Whelen overshadowed it.

And of course today everyone wants low drag high bc bullets to be able to shoot long distances and anything that was considered a brush gun 30 -50 years ago is now obsolete.

Recoil is also a 4 letter word to many rifle shooters as well whether they want to admit it or not .

It shoots the same bullet weights as 30-06 to the same speed AT THE MUZZLE with about the same recoil. It shoots bullets one weight heavier than 308 about the same speed AT THE MUZZLE with about 25% more recoil.

You can kill anything in North America with a 30-30 AT THE MUZZLE. It is what rounds do a little farther away that matters. And with similar bullet weights the smaller caliber will always give deeper penetration.

If we load 180's in a 308 and 200's in a 358 the 308 already has a big advantage in penetration on larger game at all ranges. The 358 as a significant edge in energy AT THE MUZZLE (about 300 ft lbs.) but at only 75 yards it is a tie, and the farther down range you go the greater the advantage 308 has. At only 200 yards the 308 shooting 180's has a 300 ft lb advantage in energy, shoots flatter, is more accurate, will penetrate deeper, and has about 25% less recoil.

Of course we can shoot 200's in a 30-06 for about the same recoil as 358. Once again the 30 caliber bullet will penetrate deeper on large game. AT THE MUZZLE energy numbers are roughly the same. But the 30-06 has a 500 ft lb advantage at only 200 yards. Most people wouldn't consider 200 yards long range and even at 100 yards the 358 is way behind 30-06 and slightly behind 308.

I'm not opposed to greater recoil if I gain something for it. But getting hit with 25% more recoil and getting less performance just doesn't make sense.

Many of the larger calibers are hold overs from black powder days and 19th century bullet technology. 100 years ago the 35 calibers MAY have offered a slight advantage with the poor bullets of the day. But with 21st century bullets anything over 28-30 caliber is a step down in performance until we get to 375 mag and larger.

The 358 winchester is a very easy round with lots of power for a short action.
Why is not more popular? Well why is also not more popular the 35 whelen that offers magnum like killing power?
Both very powerfull deliver lethal medicine at the ranges most people hunt.
they also put the rounds in the thumper category and give the option to shoot pretty inexpensive bullets
one can even hunt big game with like the 200gr speer tmj with flat metplat. I got 3,000 of those at 12cents each.
I think there is no much education about ballistics unless is promoter by marketing and internet.

jmr40 said:

The 358 as a significant edge in energy AT THE MUZZLE (about 300 ft lbs.) but at only 75 yards it is a tie, and the farther down range you go the greater the advantage 308 has. At only 200 yards the 308 shooting 180's has a 300 ft lb advantage in energy, shoots flatter, is more accurate, will penetrate deeper, and has about 25% less recoil.

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What 308 Winchester and 358 loads and rifles are those ones?
If only energy but not momentum and section had something to do with killing power then perhaps, but the 35 bore is well known for fast killing in its many variants.
ft-lb alone don't say much imo.

How many deer would it take to fill an average sized dump truck? That’s roughly how many I’ve killed with a .358 BLR

Honestly, I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate, but I have lost count. It’s the only rifle I hunted with for 30 years. I’m a fan of the rifle and caliber

I put the BLR away when I couldn’t readily find ammo for it but once I started reloading it came back out of the safe. My 14 year old is hunting with it now

Why isn't the .358 Winchester more popular? Because it got labeled early on as a 'short to medium range woods cartridge.' But the .35 Whelen never got that tag, even though there is very little difference in performance between the two.

The .358 is extremely versatile, with the handloader being able to use every .358 diameter bullet, from 110 grain handgun to 250 grain rifle bullets and able to fire them from a short action gun.

It should have been more popular. But it isn't. Everybody thinks they'll be taking 500 yard shots. The availability of factory ammo is the downside for those who don't reload.

I think it's a classic victim of the "caliber doughnut" - the fact that all the calibers between 6.5mm or 7mm and .375 don't really let you address any new game. They just beat you up more and give you a loopier trajectory going after the same stuff you could have addressed with a smaller gun.

Llama Bob said:

I think it's a classic victim of the "caliber doughnut" - the fact that all the calibers between 6.5mm or 7mm and .375 don't really let you address any new game. They just beat you up more and give you a loopier trajectory going after the same stuff you could have addressed with a smaller gun.

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This doesn't make any sense to me.
It will pretty much depend on the animal type, weight and the environment too.

Lets take two examples the super easy to make 358 winchester with a 225gr partition for a large bear or moose.
Another could be the 25 whelen with a 200gr accubond for a large Elk.
I am not even getting into the Norma MAgnum or 358 STW.
What would be the equivalent in somethign below 6.5 or larger than 375?

Or maybe I misunderstood ??

Also a lot of the 358 Winchester and 35 whelen data is obsolete and based on old actions and brass.
Modern actions and brass can run at the same pressures as any other popular rounds and magnums.
Modern actions even lever actions like the BLR @Nature Boy mentioned will gladly take the pressure and will provide magnum like killing power on a lower budget.

If I'm going after a large bear or bison, they're at least potentially dangerous and in the bison's case thick skinned and I'll use a .375 or possibly larger depending on the likely shot distances.

For everything else in North America, I'll take a .264WM or 7mmRM and have something that shoots flatter, penetrates deeper, and has less drag. There's no question that heavy 6.5mm works well on moose and similar - more moose have been shot with the 6.5mm than any other caliber.

My guess would be recoil compared to that of the .30-06/.270/.308.

recoil was why I passed on building one.

Llama Bob said:

If I'm going after a large bear or bison, they're at least potentially dangerous and in the bison's case thick skinned and I'll use a .375 or possibly larger depending on the likely shot distances.

For everything else in North America, I'll take a .264WM or 7mmRM and have something that shoots flatter, penetrates deeper, and has less drag. There's no question that heavy 6.5mm works well on moose and similar - more moose have been shot with the 6.5mm than any other caliber.

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Oh, ok. I misunderstood at first like a 6mm or a 40 caliber and up would do anything better. Of course they have their roles too.
But like the 375 you mention the 35 is a true hunter bore for the average range most people hunt like in the northern woods
and with something as simple as necking up a 308 case one has magnum like killing power if needed. Not just for deer for
for defense against dangerous game. In many ways is similar to the 375 for the same capacities. Take the 35 whelen another
super easy and brutal on any game. Either one can shoot very flat to kill medium to large game to 500 yards or to be used
as Brush cartrige with 250-270gr bullets given the proper twist.
Smaller calibers including the 338 federal and popular 30 calibers do not fair so well in thick brush country.

The 358 and 375 are possibly the two last bores that make sense ballistically talking. Of course one can get amazing heavy bullets
in 416 and 50 cal but those are expensive and if dedicated to long range require BMG type cases and actions.

Another advantage of the 35 bore is that one can use popular pistol bullets some in amazing bulk deals. Before the summer I got
3000 bullets from speer TMJ 200gr for 12cents each. The powder in my 35 gunner or the 358 is not that much so for that kind
of investment one gets a huge return.

The 358 winchester will also drive a 160gr cutting edge bullet close to 3000fps from a 22" barrel. It will shoot flatter than the 308
at average distances and while is not for long ranges will show very broad and deep wounding. Almost too much for small deer, hogs
or small bear. But I think the sweet spot is 200gr sp / 225gr partions or a 250gr speer or partition for deep penetration like a large moose or bear.

Some folks enthusiasts of the 9mm, 357 for pistol and lever might find the 358 and/or 35 whelen a perfect caliber for friendly
budget shooting with some of the same bullets and some popular rifle powders.
If one could have only one bore to share all bullets between pistol and rifle the 35 bore would be perfect to share everything across.

One can load some 357 calibers like a 357 mag or max casing not just to shoot the same bullets but also bird loads given some
careful consideration to specialty reloading. Will not be as efficient as the 410 but it can be pumped hotter with lead ball too.

Also amazing subsonic loads up to 310gr penetrators given the proper twist.

The 30 caliber is amazingly versatile too but for pistol they are somewhat restricted and for subsonic or largest game they max out
faster. It only gets better in the long range at much longer distances and even in those situations is questionable for what animal.
The 7mm is hard to beat no matter what objective in terms of recoil vs. ballistics efficiency.
The 6mm and 6.5 are popular for target and small-medium game at modest ranges but it is quickly maxed out for serious game
and not that practical for all terrain thick woods type of cartriges.

So many options with the 35 bore.

greyling22 said:

recoil was why I passed on building one.

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Recoil is not more than the 308. you have 160 and 180gr bullets too. Yet the type of killing one can do with the largest game has to come from
somewhere. I don't know any caliber that is a fast killer for large game that is going to give low recoil unless loaded below average.
200gr spitzer loaded at moderate speeds are also not that bad neither.

A 160gr bullet loaded at low 2600fps is going to feel like a 7mm-08 for most.

Everything is relative. Recoil is subjective to other things too.

I adore my .358win BLR. IF it wasn't for the LOOOOONNNGG creep in the trigger pull, it would easily be my favorite gun/cartridge. It weighs about like my Rem Model Seven in 7mm-08, kicks a bit more, but NO WHERE as much as some would lead you to believe. It's about like a 180gr in an average .30/06. Enough to be gratifying when shooting at something as big as you are! But certainly not painful. Nothing like a .300winmag in a 9lb rifle nor a 1oz slug in a 8lb Remington 870.

With a 200gr Hornady PtSpt, sighted +2.8" at 100yds, zero at 200yds, it's 12" down at 300yds. Not exactly a "rainbow" trajectory. 95% of my shots are either 15-100yds or 160-210yds. Either way, for 95% of shots, it's Point and Click (BANG)! Dead deer/pig/bear.
The hype of magnumitis has consumed us...
.300RUM vs. .358? .358win by a length! Plus, no cut to the forehead!
.257wby vs. .358? Under 200yds, .358 by a 1/4mi.!!!
3lbs lighter, second shot available at the flick of the wrist.

But, I take exception to the .358 being significantly better than a .35Rem. If discussing factory ammo, a qualified yes, Handloader, NO!
Maybe, just maybe, a "smidgeon" better, due to easy brass formation from .308 brass... But just for "fun", I've formed useable.35Brass from .308win. A LOT of work, but useable.
The .358 just didn't get the marketing hype. It's stood for 60yrs solely on its merits. And getting better with age!

I haven't even mentioned the 200gr FTX, 225gr Sierra G.K. or 200gr Nosler Accubond of which the latter two have been "unobtanium" since I aquired the .358 from the widow of a best hunting buddy in 2013, who passed away in 1998. Of his 40+guns, it too was one of his favorites.

cp1969 said:

Why isn't the .358 Winchester more popular? Because it got labeled early on as a 'short to medium range woods cartridge.' But the .35 Whelen never got that tag, even though there is very little difference in performance between the two.

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You're quite right; the 200fps or so of V0 difference for the same bullets is a bit of a mental divider which puts the Whelen into the lower echelon of big game cartridge category. Practical differences are negligible but the 3000ft-lbs E0 looks quite a bit weaker on paper than 3500+ that's knocking on the door of the venerable 9.3x62 and even some .375H&H loads. Momentum and TKOF, arguably more useful yardsticks, would do .358 more justice but in a world of joules, foot pounds and high velocity magnums the numbers game is rigged by default.

Even the more modern attempt, .338Federal, didn't quite catch on, despite its high chamber pressure spec and hot, 2800fps+ 180gr factory loads.

my 35,s are a rem 7600 in 35 whelen and a ruger #1 in the whelen, as they are basicly the same weight as a 35 rem or a 358 as the actions are the same. to me the 358 on a sa rem or a small ring mauser would be a fantick woods rifle. eastbank.

I use an AR in .358 WSSM for deer. Recoil is quite moderate for the amount of power. It's taken deer to a lasered 279 yards.

Internet warriors can chirp about 300-400 yard shots all they want. A deer at 300 yards in most hunting situations is a small, small target around here.

greyling22 said:

recoil was why I passed on building one.

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I loaded in down for my son with 180g bullets running at 2,400 fps. A lot more pleasent in a light carbine like the BLR.

I’m working up some heavier loads for me this week as I still hunt with it as a back up

GooseGestapo said:

I adore my .358win BLR. IF it wasn't for the LOOOOONNNGG creep in the trigger pull, it would easily be my favorite gun/cartridge.
But, I take exception to the .358 being significantly better than a .35Rem. If discussing factory ammo, a qualified yes, Handloader, NO!

Click to expand...

Hi Goose,
I am not an expert on the BLR but I admire the gun. It seems to me the triggers are designed by lawyers and not engineers.The good thing there is an upgrade that will bring it down to 3lbs.
I think the whole idea behind the lever actions is for folks to be able to shoot and operate safely with gloves so they do not have much incentive in making light triggers.
The advantage of the BLR as you know is that at least there is no chance of glove pinching as the actual trigger lower assembly comes down with the lever all in one piece.
That to me is a huge advantage along with the detachable mag, bolt and modular nature, take down or not.

Regarding the 35rem I think it can be pumped to a very decent point with 200gr as you stated but the 358 can also be pumped to amazing levels and will also take 225 to 250gr bullets to decent
speeds depending on COAL. So it is more flexible in that sense from lighter loads to the heaviest possible given the proper twist.

One thing is clear, the 35 calibers are well known fast killers just like the 375. No need for higher calibers imo.

eastbank said:

my 35,s are a rem 7600 in 35 whelen and a ruger #1 in the whelen, as they are basicly the same weight as a 35 rem or a 358 as the actions are the same. to me the 358 on a sa rem or a small ring mauser would be a fantick woods rifle. eastbank.

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That is a good point. Even something budget like a simple axis with factory magazine will give up to 2.5" coal for a short action rifle.
So if one reloads and with a tad extra freebore the 35W chamber will give some room for the longest premium 358 bullets.
Since one will most likely order a new barrel the twist must be a consideration and in this case one could take more advantage of the 250gr bullets including lead free.
The barnes need more speed but the GS customs activate reliably all the way down to 1,700-1600fps and with a G1 of .48 is nothing to be overlooked for a specialty type of load.
This would be perfect for the whelen IMO although results might not be much different than a more affordable 250gr partition or the 225gr partion for the 358w.

The 358w can be safely pumped to 2600fps with a 225gr partition and standard coal.
IMO these are better bullets than the SGK used by buffalo bore that need a lot more impact speed to work the best.

This is how the 358 looks like with a partition and 10mph wind.



The 308 was mentioned earlier so lets see where we fall with a 180gr partition...
This doesn't show true killing power that also comes from momentum and frontal section...





For a brunch buster and very large game the 270gr sirocco or 275gr woodleigh is ideal using slower powders thus the faster twist consideration. If one goes with a 10 twist there are also the 310gr FMJs
and several cast that go all the way to 320gr for specialty/subsonic work but also to get in the sub 2000 fps. these obviously for brush and penetration.

Bottom line, the 35 caliber has the power to derail the game and stop it where you shoot it.

For handloaders, Hornady still makes cases for the .358 win, generally in stock at Midway