Stovepipe, Jam, Etc.

Can’t remember when I’ve had a stovepipe or jam.
However, I reload so my rounds are tailored for my pistols. I would say most jams are magazine related. New, heavy springs sometimes are the culprit.
I shoot weekly, so it’s important to have a setup that runs. Even more important for an EDC pistol and ammo.

I have firearms that have never given me a malfunction. Even after shooting thousands of rounds. Sometimes I like to GIVE myself a malfunction to practice reaction drills.

Most of the repetitive malfunctions you see come from sheer pigheadedness. When I was in a four-day handgun self-defense course one fellow couldn’t shoot two rounds without a malfunction. He had chosen an unusual caliber, 10 mm I think, and kept trying to use a brand of ammo that just wouldn’t work. He just wouldn’t give up on it. Most folks find what works and use it.

I have had very few jams/stovepipes with my autoloaders. It is kind of interesting. I had read about limpwristing on the forums but never experienced it. I took one of my sisters out to let her shoot a few years ago & it happened to her. I explained that she needed to keep a firm grip so the pistol had something to work against. It didn't happen after that.

Most of the problems I had I caused. It taught me about what not to do or that a particular pistol didn't like a certain type of ammunition.

0ne3 said:

Trying not to start a war here, however I am wondering. I have noticed at the range,the guys that shoot autos seem to always have some kind of problem. Is this a caricatoristic of them? I have seem all types. Do not get upset, just wondering.

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It is likely that their weapons showed a lack of development time and were rushed to market. Reliable feed and extraction are not an accident of nature. It has to be engineered into the weapon, and not all cartridge and weapon configurations are going to be reliable in this aspect. I am not a fan of straight walled cartridges because if tolerances are a little off, and they are not precisely aligned with the chamber, jams result. Take a look at double stack pistol magazines, that top round has to be precisely located in line with the chamber, timing and release of the round has to be precise, if not, failures to feed occur.

I have seen a surprising number of jams with the short barreled M1911's. I don't know what is going on, but shortening the slide sure did something wrong with the timing and the things were jam a matics.

In print gunwriters do not shoot enough rounds down range to determine function reliability. I remember when the Bren Ten came out, the writer only had 200 rounds, the glowing text of his article had to have been thousands of words. After the Bren Ten collapsed it was revealed the things were jam a matics. If you notice, the current trend for inprint gunwriters is to shoot maybe four, three round groups. The guy fires 12 shots total and recommends you buy a $1000 weapon on the basis of 12 rounds? You are most certainly not reading a real test report, where not only the inherent accuracy of the firearm is determined, but also, the function reliablity. And I don't think that is an accident either.

I have been shooting Bullseye pistol and because I want the lightest recoiling round, sometimes I have failures to eject or failures to feed. It is all because of powder lot changes and temperature changes. When you are operating a pistol at a minimum energy input, it does not take much energy loss to create a malfunction. The last match I fired, one good shooter was testing out a 22 LR conversion on top of a M1911 frame. And the pistol was having failures to eject. The night before, both the pistol and ammunition had been left out in 40 ish weather, and I suggested low temperatures as a cause. Because I have seen it and experienced malfunctions with cold ammunition. Also, I suggested that the firing mechanism was not delivering sufficient energy on the rims to properly ignite the primer compound. Cold weather is actually a more severe environment on equipment than hot weather. As proof, just try to crank your car, with a seven year old, recently deceased battery, on a cold day. Everything worked just fine in 70 degree weather, but the first night everything gets into the 40's, that car ain't starting, is it?

Malfunctions with semiautos, IMHO, are caused by grip (limp-wristing) and magazines tied for first, cheap or improperly reloaded ammo next, and gun QA or wear issues. Basically, anything in the system can contribute, but issues are not THAT common. When you switch to revolvers, grip and magazines no longer apply.

badkarmamib said:

are caused by grip (limp-wristing)

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always the excuse now-a-days... Why did this term not exist 30 years ago?

tarosean said:

always the excuse now-a-days... Why did this term not exist 30 years ago?

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I'm not a fan of the term but the advent of light-framed polymer pistols in recent years has exacerbated this issue. A heavy steel frame will resist rearward recoil (which is essential for a semi-auto pistol to function correctly) better than a super-lightweight polymer frame.

0ne3 said:

Is this a caricatoristic of them?

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well duh... You cannot exactly pull it off with a revolver or single shot...
In 40yrs of shooting pistols, Ive probably had <10 stovetpipes.

tarosean said:

well duh... You cannot exactly pull it off with a revolver or single shot...
In 40yrs of shooting pistols, Ive probably had <10 stovetpipes.

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On the other hand, I've had revolvers jump crimp or break parts. In general, revolvers are just as vulnerable as automatics -- and a revolver stoppage is much more difficult to clear.

5 of my 7 autoloaders have never had a single malfunction.

Parts wear, springs need replacing, guns need maintenance. Some folks don't maintain them until they malfunction.

Revolvers can malfunction also.

Notice that the Army had some problems with their new SIG pistols that made the news and got all the gun folks in a tizzy, but the most interesting factoid that was overlooked by the media was that something on the order of almost 90% of all the failures happened to a very small number of shooters...like 8 IIRC. (sorry if the numbers are wrong...going from memory but the gist of the statement is correct). Heaven Forbid anyone call out these few shooters who just couldn't seem to make the guns run while everyone else wasn't having any problems. Of COURSE it was a 'gun problem' as consumers expect that anything they buy should work for them....even if they don't understand how it works or what they need to do to make it run. Must be tough being a manufacturer these days.

"In general, revolvers are just as vulnerable as automatics."

That certainly hasn't been my experience. Mine has been pretty much the same as below:

"I have some guns (notably one rimfire semi-auto pistol) that are not very reliable. I have others that I have shot a lot and yet can't recall ever malfunctioning. I have one semi-auto that will reliably malfunction 2-3 times out of every 50 rounds when shooting aluminum cased ammo but that has never malfunctioned with brass-cased ammo. I have one semi-auto that will jam several times a box when shooting S&B ammo but that is extremely reliable with other brands. I have one semi-auto that will stovepipe once in awhile when shooting it one-handed with my weak hand but that very rarely malfunctions when shooting two-handed or one-handed with my strong hand. I had one, some years ago, that wouldn't make it through a magazine if I tried to shoot it one-handed but that was quite reliable when shot with both hands. I've had a few aftermarket mags that would reliably induce malfunctions in otherwise reliable guns."

I've had two revolvers malfunction ever (out of dozens): one because it had been abused before I got it, and one because it was defective from the factory. Most of my semiautomatics have jammed at one time or another. For instance, it seems like wonky ammo will often fit into the magazine, but won't chamber properly. If it's a revolver, the ammo won't fit into the cylinder in the first place if it's similarly out of spec, so you don't have the malfunction.

Get a few grains of powder under the extractor star and you won't say revolvers are immune to malfunctions. That is a nasty one and no remedial action will fix it. If you haven't had a malfunction with every type of handgun you haven't shot them enough.

IMO, what you are seeing is a lot of Newbies at the public range. They just bought the
latest Guns & Ammo plastic Flavor Of The Month. They don't know how to shoot, they just shoot.
Probably a bunch of limp wristing, and poor gun handling, is all. You can pretty much lock up
any auto-loader, if you handle it poorly.

If the range you're going to is completely full of semi pistol shooters having problems I'd like to see some proof.

I've been going to ranges of a variety for quite a while and haven't experienced anything of the sort.

I realize I'm just a drop in the bucket so it'd be nice to see a video or something of what you're experiencing so that others of us might be able to accurately make an opinion on your situation.

Haven't had a problem...ever since I got rid of my "sissy pistols". ahahahahaha

Well, I have had an issue or two with a few poor reloads--mine or someone elses.

M

If you were watching me and it happened most likely it was because I was working and testing a new round. When I start with a new load I always start low and many times the load will have problems cycling because they are too weak. With some it may also be the bullet design such as a flat point or hollow point hanging on the feed ramp.

Now I also now have a new S&W 380EZ that many are having problems with in regards to stovepipes. I believe it is related to the magazine.

I have had maybe 4 or 5 in the last couple of decades from all of my semis combined. 2 or 3 of those were one of my 1911's a couple of years ago with which I had never tensioned the extractor on, After a tweak of the extractor the problem was gone. Keep in mind this is many thousands of rounds and many of my pistols have 0 malfunctions. So I guess to answer your question my personal experience doe's not mirror your observations.

I've only had one semi-auto (out of around twenty) that gave me a lot of trouble-- a Springfield 1911 GI from back when they still made those. The thing would stovepipe every couple of magazines or so. It was a combination of a small, unflared ejection port and a very finicky extractor. None of my other 1911s have ever behaved as badly, even the tiny ones, where timing problems are said to be more common.

New shooters can do all sorts of things to wind up with malfunctions, like having a thumb up too high and dragging on the slide. I don't know about "limp-wristing," every semi-auto I've had worked fine if held loosely. Maybe a short-barreled 1911 would have trouble, but you have to hang on to those pretty tight anyway unless you want to hurt yourself.

tarosean said:

always the excuse now-a-days... Why did this term not exist 30 years ago?

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I’m not a fan of the term “limp-wristing” either. I prefer “not being behind the gun”. It seems like some people pick up a double stack gun and reach around it to get their finger just right on the trigger. Unfortunately, in doing so, they don’t support the back of the gun. Consequently, the gun short strokes. Call it inexperience or just poor gun handling. Or maybe misinformation. The belief that your finger has to be in some sweet spot on the trigger to shoot well.

Glocks, in my opinion, are about the most unforgiving with this. Light frames and stiff springs don’t help. Hold on tight!

On the opposite end 1911’s, which are about the most forgiving. Steel frames and modest springs help. A 1911 seems to just set in my hand without near as much effort.

0ne3 said:

Trying not to start a war here, however I am wondering. I have noticed at the range,the guys that shoot autos seem to always have some kind of problem. Is this a caricatoristic of them? I have seem all types. Do not get upset, just wondering.

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Are these the same guys that buy a thousand-dollar gun and then shoot the cheapest crap ammunition through it, never clean or do any preventative maintenance on it? These seem to be the same guys that shoot their pistols at the 10-yard line and actually miss the target completely. They do look cool doing it though.

Do they upset me? Not hardly.