Yep, now that you mentioned it. Two of them?
What’s with the 300 blackout stigma?
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jmorris
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Yeah, they have walked down to the mule I get there in and sniffed around the back before.
We had a doe and fawn come up to us while we were baiting hogs with corn before, with a lab running around as well. We went to burying to keep them from setting off the radios, only hogs will dig it up.
We had a doe and fawn come up to us while we were baiting hogs with corn before, with a lab running around as well. We went to burying to keep them from setting off the radios, only hogs will dig it up.
Elkins45
Member
I would love the chance to use my Blackout on hogs. We don’t have them here and I have yet to figure out a good place to hunt them on public land. Everybody complains about how destructive they are but nobody ever wants to share any good public hunting spots.
I never could see much use for a 5.56 pistol, but when PSA started selling 300 BO pistol kits for $300 (minus lower, sights and mag) I couldn't afford not to play. No issues using all stock parts and aero lower. Having fun, and that's all I ask.
Good for you. Not splitting hairs about the effect of fast twist on hotter end of the load spectrum, particularly with lighter hence more fragile bullets, I can only conclude that I can choose any barrel for any rifle I like, have any of my regular gunsmiths machine, profile and chamber it any way I want in turnaround time of a day or so, and pick yet another suppressor over the counter from dozens of alternatives at the same time. Any bore, any thread, any style, any internal volume, any baffle design. If I don't happen to have a perfectly suitable one laying around in my spare suppressor bin, and between .22 and .458 calibers I usually do.
Were I forced to settle for what's available in factory configuration or wait for a suppressor more than the time it takes for the sales associate to check me out once I've chosen one off the shelf, things might be different. But they aren't. Last I checked there are thousands if not tens of thousands of very competent gunsmiths in the US, too, so restricting oneself to stock factory offerings is a matter of choice.
Bringing legislative issues and artificial unwillingness to use a gunsmith to get exactly what's needed is, well, artificial. Especially when an one-time investment of a few hundred bucks and being unprepared by not having the red tape for a perfectly suitable can ready at the time you need it are brought into equation. Providing that you need to wait for any red tape to clear to purchase one in the first place.
In purely ballistic and technical terms the discussion has been over before it even started.
edwardware
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I think I may need one of those before the next general election. What did you do for sights? Ever tried AR iron sights on the pistol?
" Not splitting hairs about the effect of fast twist on hotter end of the load spectrum, particularly with lighter hence more fragile bullets, "
You are being willfully obtuse in you level of understanding generalities about twist and it's effects and yet will fully ignorant as to details of application of twist.
Yes a 1 in 7 twist would probably disintegrate a 110 V Max IF IT WAS DRIVEN 3500 FPS.
Here's some fairly simple math for you bullet disintegration is going to come from RPMs or how fast the bullet is spinning.
At 3000 fps the 110 gr bullet in a 1 in 10 barrel is spinning over 10,000 RPMs faster than at 2000 fps in a 1 in 7 twist.
The fast twist in the Blackout isn't a problem not even a little one. Stop please
You are being willfully obtuse in you level of understanding generalities about twist and it's effects and yet will fully ignorant as to details of application of twist.
Yes a 1 in 7 twist would probably disintegrate a 110 V Max IF IT WAS DRIVEN 3500 FPS.
Here's some fairly simple math for you bullet disintegration is going to come from RPMs or how fast the bullet is spinning.
At 3000 fps the 110 gr bullet in a 1 in 10 barrel is spinning over 10,000 RPMs faster than at 2000 fps in a 1 in 7 twist.
The fast twist in the Blackout isn't a problem not even a little one. Stop please
"I think I may need one of those before the next general election. What did you do for sights? Ever tried AR iron sights on the pistol?"
I know you didn't direct this to me but I have irons and a QD 1-4X scope on my 10.5" and a cheap 2X prism on this 8.5", the SB tactical braces are the best things since sliced bread
I know you didn't direct this to me but I have irons and a QD 1-4X scope on my 10.5" and a cheap 2X prism on this 8.5", the SB tactical braces are the best things since sliced bread
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Mine has the SOB brace and currently wears a Vortex sparc red dot. Not entirely happy with that, so will probably try Magpul backup sights.
I have the 8.5" barrel and m-lok forend. I picked the kit up on special last year. If you are patient I am sure the opportunity will return, or there may be a different configuration that appeals to you.
I have the 8.5" barrel and m-lok forend. I picked the kit up on special last year. If you are patient I am sure the opportunity will return, or there may be a different configuration that appeals to you.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Those lighter bullets you refer to behave very different at .300BO velocities. No, it's not an issue. Now THAT is an "artificial" factor.Good for you. Not splitting hairs about the effect of fast twist on hotter end of the load spectrum, particularly with lighter hence more fragile bullets, I can only conclude that I can choose any barrel for any rifle I like, have any of my regular gunsmiths machine, profile and chamber it any way I want in turnaround time of a day or so, and pick yet another suppressor over the counter from dozens of alternatives at the same time. Any bore, any thread, any style, any internal volume, any baffle design. If I don't happen to have a perfectly suitable one laying around in my spare suppressor bin, and between .22 and .458 calibers I usually do.
Were I forced to settle for what's available in factory configuration or wait for a suppressor more than the time it takes for the sales associate to check me out once I've chosen one off the shelf, things might be different. But they aren't. Last I checked there are thousands if not tens of thousands of very competent gunsmiths in the US, too, so restricting oneself to stock factory offerings is a matter of choice.
Bringing legislative issues and artificial unwillingness to use a gunsmith to get exactly what's needed is, well, artificial. Especially when an one-time investment of a few hundred bucks and being unprepared by not having the red tape for a perfectly suitable can ready at the time you need it are brought into equation. Providing that you need to wait for any red tape to clear to purchase one in the first place.
In purely ballistic and technical terms the discussion has been over before it even started.
We have plenty of gunsmiths in the US but one that is worth a damn is not going to turnaround a barrel job in one day. A good one will take at least a few months. That ain't the issue. It's not an unwillingness to use a gunsmith, I have several custom guns that cost a lot more than a new barrel. It's paying $500-$600 extra for a custom barrel when it is completely unnecessary. Actually, it's more than that, it's stupid.
Suppressors in the US aren't like moderators in Europe. A good suppressor is going to run $800-$900 and due to the NFA of 1934 we have to pay a $200 tax stamp with a year wait. So being able to use the same suppressor for handguns and subsonic .300BO is going to be a factor for some folks.
In a purely ballistic sense, you completely disregard any point or argument that doesn't fit your narrative.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Chuck R.
Member
I have on mine (Scalarworks) with a lower 1/3rd co-witness with 9" barrel. I even mounted them back a little to leave room for a light mounted in the 12 o'clock the way I like it. The irons are serviceable and can make hits on a 2/3rds IDPA silhouette out to 200y, maybe further, but that's as far as I've tried it. I've gone with the MRO on my pistol rather than a LPV based on intended use. For a carbine I much prefer a LPV over a RDS unless it's a house gun.
Brothers from different muthers, waiting on my Gemtech One to get out of jail.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Nice! I still need to start the paperwork on my Hybrid.
You sure we shouldn't have gotten a 10lb AR10 instead???
You sure we shouldn't have gotten a 10lb AR10 instead???
Now that you're at it, and referred to ".300BO velocities", would you like to describe how a higher case capacity and CIP/SAAMI pressure caliber couldn't be loaded down to match them if need be, or shall we conclude that the OEM fast twist rate caliber you so admire is otherwise useless for more powerful cartridges?
Funny, really. Last time we discussed the ½mv² -principle of extremely heavy subsonic loads, including my 1000gr 12ga slug handloads and you were so vocal about how "unnecessary" energy, momentum and penetration are, based on your subjective opinions, and now all of the sudden the heavy (for caliber) 200-240gr subsonic loads are the greatest thing since sliced bread in your opinion, provided that they're launched from the allmighty .300BO...
Disregard. What a wonderful term of choice. There's another one from the Old Blighty, "flip-flopper".
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Nothing stopping you from doing that and you can do it with heavy bullets, if the twist rate is right. But then we run into all the other factors you've been ignoring. A faster twist is either necessary or it isn't. In the case of heavy bullets in the .300BO at subsonic velocity, it is. You do understand how that works, right? That longer (heavier) bullets require a faster twist?? Doubly so when they're slow???
You really wanna go there again? Wrong. I was vocal about how unnecessary (and impractical) a 1000gr 12ga slug is for friggin' deer.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-rifle-cartridge-for-subsonic-hunting.797184/
Sorry professor but my position has not changed and the above thread is barely even relevant to this one. Except the fact that I've taken three 2000lb bovines with the .44Mag since the above exchange. MaxP and gunsmith/friend Jack Huntington took Cape buffalo with revolvers this past spring.
Thank you for making my point for me. So, heavy, long bullets are, in your very opinion, "necessary" with .300BO and "unnecessary" and "impractical" with any other caliber. Based on your personal, subjective claim and nothing else, as you've presented it and still seem to cling to this generalized and contradictory claim.
All attempts at requesting an explanation, other than your subjective opinion spiced with a selection of recurring adjectives (see above), have been in vain. Even, and particularly, when presented with desired and intentional effects of these solutions with ballistic, scientific facts behind them and up to decades of first-hand experience putting them into practise. Ie. "Why is that?" -> "You're [disregarding] [an excuse] [unnecessary/impractical] [artificial context] [artificial limitations] [because^H^H^H^H^H^H^H *silence*]"
The saddest part is the risk that some people with little or limited experience with subsonic loads, suppressors and ballistics may mistake your opinions for facts. No matter how eloquent they are, simply pointing out the glaring discrepancies and double standards (see above, again) raises questions that remain unanswered, unless you count yet another torrent of subjective adjectives as such.
I don't. And it seems that this thread has outlived its usefulness and wasted its potential of waking people up about a catchy name and clever marketing doesn't constitute the only - or in most cases, even an optimal - solution for a subsonic or sub+supersonic rifle caliber, not even on the AR platform, by a long shot.
And that's what it's really all about. Anyone can read the usual marketing pitch, swipe a credit card and walk home with whatever has been touted as the "ultimate" solution. Even when it isn't and has a very limited market share wherever suppressors and sub/supersonic combination rifles and calibers have decades of history of being the norm. For example, in northern Europe .308 is by FAR the most common suppressed centerfire rifle caliber, for a number of reasons, and none of the problems you've recently hypothesized. 7.62x39 is a close second.
If any of the points you've made so far had real-world validity you claim they might have, the BO would have gained a substantial market share by now, but it hasn't. In spite of AR being by far the most popular semiauto rifle in these regions, too, in regard to the BO the only objective reason to choose it over something else, ie. feeding nicely through stock mags and magwell. Still... no.
Food for thought.
Good Lord that sounds like MSM and Trump derangement syndrome.
You've effectively and totally taken statements out of context, misrepresented them and the made non sequitur rebuttals with misrepresented facts.
How many of those hunters in Europe are shooting subs?
As for popularity 5.56, 308 and 7.62 are military rounds and have huge followings because of among other things the surplus market. Name a solely commercial round that's significantly more prevalent than the Blackout that's available as both sub and supersonic.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
"Long, heavy" is vague but the simple answer is YES! The .300BO is a "smallbore" cartridge. A .30cal bullet needs to expand to be effective on game. A bullet that expands needs to have a higher SD in order to penetrate well, particularly at subsonic velocities. As the bullet begins to expand, SD drops dramatically because remember, SD is the mass relative to diameter. As I said before, when your velocity is limited, you gain effect through diameter and mass. So yes, high SD is "necessary" with the .300BO and subsonic loads because you need the added momentum to facilitate penetration.
A non-expanding solid does not have to be 'that' heavy to be effective on game because unlike the expanding bullet, SD does not change. We know this from 100yrs of handgun hunting. As I said in previous threads, a standard weight cast bullet in the 240-250gr .44/.45 range at 1000fps is plenty for deer sized game. No need for ultra heavy bullets for deer and there is nothing to be gained in using them. If these bullets break shoulders and make it through to the other side of a 2000lb water buffalo, why would we need them for deer? Same concept applies to your 1000gr slug and the 500gr .45's referenced in the other thread. It's way more mass than is necessary. You can use them, sure but it's a lot more than necessary. You could cut the weight in half and it would still be more than enough.
The points I've made are fact-based and easily verifiable without emotion or unnecessary rhetoric.
Now see, we could have had a civil conversation about this but you chose to get defensive and condescending and do your best to make it personal.
PS, I really don't care what is done in Europe or why and that goes for pretty much everything. We stopped caring about what Europeans thought over 200yrs ago. Now, just as then, you live in a different world with very different perspectives and laws.
The least intelligent way to attempt to make an argument is to omit any corollaries to the actual subject at hand and make an unfounded blanket accusation, but considering that this is The High Road - or at least it should be - this is probably some kind of a record.
FYI, 5.56NATO/.223 and 7.62NATO/.308 aren't military rounds here. Finnish military doesn't sell any issue Lapua 7.62x39 ammo as surplus to civilian market, and never has. All of them have decades of purely civilian following with commercial ammo and relatively recent (since early 90's) availability of surplus Bundeswehr .308 and ex iron curtain ammo has done little if anything to their already dominant popularity. Suppressed subsonic rounds are the norm, not an exception, in all hunting where the legislative minimum energy for game classes are met. The legislation has been enacted for this in mind, from 40gr rimfire for small game all the way to heavy custom slugs and .458-.50 caliber loads, while keeping supersonic loads in mind as a parallel alternative in the same calibers.
This is by no means an accident. It's the law of the land and a regular practise that has been going on for several decades. The introduction of .300Whisper -> .300BO has raised little more than a marginal ho-hum. A big, comprehensive "so what?", so to speak.
Yawn. Let's put it this way: your heavy-for-caliber-small-bullet might or might not expand but I'm pretty certain that my 1000-grainer doesn't shrink or fail to penetrate. And it most certainly doesn't need to expand one bit for a confident DRT.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That is true. As I responded to your FIRST post, this ain't the 1990's and bullet technology has improved greatly. However, since suppressed .308's with subsonic loads are so prevalent in Europe, what are you using for bullets? You denigrate the .300BO in favor of the 7.62x39 or .308 but then denigrate the .300 for bullets that don't expand, even though they use the same bullets. Do you not see the contradiction there? Is there a magical difference between the same bullet launched at the same velocity from two different cartridges that only the critters and you know? Seems to me that your only purpose here is to denigrate the .300BO and you do so with a completely irrational and illogical argument.
No, a hardcast 12ga slug won't shrink but it would be just as effective if the weight were cut in half. Which was the point. Even better would be the 250gr .44/.45 at a quarter the weight and recoil.
"FYI, 5.56NATO/.223 and 7.62NATO/.308 aren't military rounds here. "
That's an intellectualy dishonest statement.
Your military may not use them but they are most certainly military rounds world wide.
Love to hear what bullet you're using for subsonic 308s is ammo avaliable commercially?
I'll wait
That's an intellectualy dishonest statement.
Your military may not use them but they are most certainly military rounds world wide.
Love to hear what bullet you're using for subsonic 308s is ammo avaliable commercially?
I'll wait
Strat Rider
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Having read this entire thread over the past few days, I have to ask why people are not just downloading the AR-10 to shoot subsonic ?
My assumptions are barrel twist and might not cycle the bolt - would these be correct ?
This also has me wondering if the optimum twist for a subsonic @ 220-240 gr. is still okay for a 125 to 165 gr. round ?
Thanks
My assumptions are barrel twist and might not cycle the bolt - would these be correct ?
This also has me wondering if the optimum twist for a subsonic @ 220-240 gr. is still okay for a 125 to 165 gr. round ?
Thanks
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