357 Magnum has become pointless... for me.

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Well, I have a GP100 Match Champion in 357 magnum and a Redhawk in 45 Colt/ACP and I think I'd have to test it to be sure but my guess as far as versatility would be that the 357 magnum would be best suited for small to medium targets and the 45 Colt would be best suited for medium to large targets.

The real question is: what happens when you shoot a squirrel with a 460/500 magnum (let me know if you know a squirrel that's given it's life for science).
 
Well, I have a GP100 Match Champion in 357 magnum and a Redhawk in 45 Colt/ACP and I think I'd have to test it to be sure but my guess as far as versatility would be that the 357 magnum would be best suited for small to medium targets and the 45 Colt would be best suited for medium to large targets.

The real question is: what happens when you shoot a squirrel with a 460/500 magnum (let me know if you know a squirrel that's given it's life for science).

It ends up being more dramatic than when you shoot a big animal with a .357 - well maybe that’s not the right descriptive as it actually gets pretty dramatic when you shoot big animals with small calibers! LOL!
 
It’s just physics, not emotion. I base my opinion on the holes in the data that has been collected and I have used and seen used all manner of calibers on all manner of game, and well bigger is better all things being “equal.” Why the emotional attachment??

Not emotional or attached. But wanted to know if you'd ruled out .357 based on the data alone, or how much experience you've had with it. I've had none, so I can say, "it's never failed me," but it doesn't mean much. Just as well, I have no reason to be attached to it. Anyone could look at the data and say "bigger is better," but if they never tried .357, it doesn't mean much if it just fails "paper ballistics." So I was asking what your experience with .357 on game was -- that's all.

I don't believe the hype about .357. But if there was evidence it's effectiveness was inferior to .44 Special, we'd see that in comparison to the more heavily tried and tested .45 ACP, but I don't see much consensus on the superiority of terminal effects from anything between 9mm and .45, or any reason to think the .357 isn't about the same as the rest. For me, .357 has the right combination of lower bore axis for a given capacity, it offers a higher capacity (7 shots in an L frame vs. 5 for .44), it works well in a revolver without moon-clips, and it accepts a small (non-toxic) primer. I'll shoot anything with a small primer, which includes .454.
 
Do you wear hearing protection while walking the woods? While hunting? While sitting in your office? The complaint is not that it's too loud, else I wouldn't be shooting at all. It's that it's too loud for the performance it yields. It's that there are better options that don't rattle your teeth loose. All handguns are loud but I'll take better AND quieter every chance I get.

It's pretty hard to argue with success but I guess there's always going to be one or two in every crowd. :(
 
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The .44, for me, is just more accurate so I parted with my .357s some time ago.
I still like the .38
But if I could only have one revolver, it would probably be a .357 (or .44)
 
My point is that you can find bad loads in any caliber. I recall reading some controversy over the effectiveness of the 110gr .357 mag hollow point once used by the Border Patrol. 9mm Winchester Silvertips supposedly suffered unreliable expansion and so poor performance. And I believe the .38 Special lead round nose cartridge once issued to police officers in many departments was known to some as the "Widow Maker", because the bad guy was still coming after 6 hits and only finally bled out after the officer was killed.
Yes, the 110gr JHP works well against people who aren't wearing coats or are ensconced in vehicles. If someone's in Miami, it should be exceptional for stopping power. The 125gr/140gr JHPs are perfect and the latter is fine if you're going to be up against people behind cover; however, for sheer stopping power in people, I don't believe quite anything compares with the 125gr JHP .357 with the exception of the .357 Sig and the 10mm. The former has better blast and recoil and the latter has about the same blast and recoil. The 158 lead round nose .38 looks impressive, but though it has excellent penetration, it tends to go through the body and not expand.

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Ayoob has also said that handloads are a bad idea for self defense and would be used against you by a zealous prosecutor. Even though it's never actually happened.
Yeah, well, Ayoob's seen some courts (and idiot juries) do some amazingly stupid things. He's a professional firearms/ammo witness and has seen some prosecutors who ought to be on the people's side trying to put away decent law abiding citizens who used firearms against intruders and attackers. In the late 70s, when I was working at the NRA in Washington, D.C., the big controversy was "Cop Killer" bullets, so called. The primary thing the NRA did before screwing him over was trying to keep the media from finding out one carefully guarded secret: namely, the 125gr JHP .357 would penetrate most police bullet-resistant vests. The media already was gearing up to ban copper-clad rifle bullets, many of which will still penetrate such vests, but all we needed was for it to get out that the popular 125gr JHP/JSP would penetrate cop's body armor! (As it was, criminals were simply aiming for the cops' heads; they weren't buying armor-piercing rounds.)

So I tend to cut Ayoob some slack when it comes to courts, judges, prosecutors and juries. He's probably seen more than he's needed to see over they years, and he knows that in many cases, if it hadn't been for him, many of his clients would have gone to prison simply for defending themselves and/or their loved ones.

Have you actually had a .44Spl fail or are you just judging by paper ballistics???
Never. I've never had any ammo fail me. But I've done a lot of reading, and I've heard of many failures with a .45 ACP, which I consider ballistically superior to the .44 Spl. If you shoot it out of a S&W 29/629, you can jack it up to an ear-splitting, hard recoiling round; however, why do that when you can get a great manstopper that will stay in a human body and deliver its enormous energy? Such is the .357 Mag. In my view, it's faster, flatter-shooting, more accurate and has much better stopping power. Just opinion.

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Ayoob says a lot of things. In "The Gravest Extreme." page 98 he considers the 1911 as an "experts only" weapon.
With its cock 'n lock feature, it really was at the time (and may still be). People carrying the 1911 in Israel quite often would get in brawls over carrying it that way (Condition 1). People considered it dangerous and like cowboys and the Wild West. And many people are dead today because they forgot to trip the safety before firing, so there's a reason.

In discussing women specifically, he notes that .45s and magnums are too powerful for small hands to control, page 40 (as if hand size determined strength). In a 2006 Combat Handguns issue, Ayoob mentioned 1911's as an option for women and men with small hands who have trouble qualifying with other designs. There are many experts out there with many opinions that are not necessarily factual or realistic. It is important to evaluate the content based on the content and not based on who said it.
Well, that was the opinion of many back then -- about women and guns -- and it hasn't proven to be the case. I once took my 110-pound woman friend out to shoot. I started her out with a .22LR and kept asking if I had anything more powerful. I got her up to the .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk and she ate it up! But really, back when Ayoob penned that stuff, who knew? I was kind of blown away!

--
 
Not emotional or attached. But wanted to know if you'd ruled out .357 based on the data alone, or how much experience you've had with it. I've had none, so I can say, "it's never failed me," but it doesn't mean much. Just as well, I have no reason to be attached to it. Anyone could look at the data and say "bigger is better," but if they never tried .357, it doesn't mean much if it just fails "paper ballistics." So I was asking what your experience with .357 on game was -- that's all.

I'll shoot anything with a small primer, which includes .454.

I have used the .357 on deer-sized game and barring a perfect shot it is marginal. Oh it works if you do your part but there is no margin for error, and well whitetail aren’t that hard to kill.

Every Fall we host the Bovine Bash in Hondo, Texas where we test handgun caliber/load/bullet combinations on bovine flesh (Watusi, water buffalo, bison, etc.). No compromise terminal ballistics testing. For the last couple of a years, one of my colleagues has been using a .357 so I’ve been witness to that rather extreme end of the spectrum of testing as well. Again, it’s marginal.

I am well aware that the average person won’t be toting a .44 Mag around for personal protection, and there are a lot more firearms chambered in .357 that are concealable over larger caliber revolvers. It is a fine caliber. In the game fields, unless small to small/medium game is on the menu, it’s a boy doing a man’s job.

Do you have a .454? Have you shot anything with it? Just curious.
 
Yeah, well, Ayoob's seen some courts (and idiot juries) do some amazingly stupid things. He's a professional firearms/ammo witness and has seen some prosecutors who ought to be on the people's side trying to put away decent law abiding citizens who used firearms against intruders and attackers. In the late 70s, when I was working at the NRA in Washington, D.C., the big controversy was "Cop Killer" bullets, so called. The primary thing the NRA did before screwing him over was trying to keep the media from finding out one carefully guarded secret: namely, the 125gr JHP .357 would penetrate most police bullet-resistant vests. The media already was gearing up to ban copper-clad rifle bullets, many of which will still penetrate such vests, but all we needed was for it to get out that the popular 125gr JHP/JSP would penetrate cop's body armor! (As it was, criminals were simply aiming for the cops' heads; they weren't buying armor-piercing rounds.)
Thanks for the lesson but I started reading Ayoob 30yrs ago. His experience and credentials don't change the fact that it has never happened.


Never. I've never had any ammo fail me. But I've done a lot of reading, and I've heard of many failures with a .45 ACP, which I consider ballistically superior to the .44 Spl. If you shoot it out of a S&W 29/629, you can jack it up to an ear-splitting, hard recoiling round; however, why do that when you can get a great manstopper that will stay in a human body and deliver its enormous energy? Such is the .357 Mag. In my view, it's faster, flatter-shooting, more accurate and has much better stopping power. Just opinion.
I have. I've seen .357's fail to expand. I've seen them over-expand and fail to penetrate. I've seen jacketed bullets come unglued and fail to penetrate. Everything must happen just right for the .357 to do its job properly. I requires high velocity and textbook jacketed bullet performance. When all that is present and those 125's don't hit anything they can't penetrate, it works well. What about when it doesn't? Which is part of the reason I prefer a moderate big bore over a handgun cartridge trying to be a rifle cartridge. Diameter and mass are what handguns have in their favor. They don't have the velocity or sectional density to compete with rifle cartridges. Light bullets and high speeds are an enormous compromise and they walk a fine line. A heavier cast bullet out of a big bore does not have to walk that line. They don't need high velocity to work well and sometimes it's even detrimental. They don't have to expand to be effective and we'd prefer they didn't. They make huge wound channels, break bones, penetrate and exit. You're obviously judging the .44Spl by neutered factory loads. I do not. It matters not what cartridge we're talking about anyway. I'm arguing for a concept, not a particular cartridge. That said, a 250gr SWC at 950fps is more effective, more consistent and won't make your ears bleed. It can also be cranked up to 1200fps and take game up to elk, if need be. Also never competing with the .357 for that ear splitting muzzle blast. A lot more bang for your boom.

You have to get away from this nonsense of "delivering energy". Energy doesn't kill or incapacitate. Bullets do that through tissue destruction. Until we can determine how much energy is used to destroy tissue, how much is lost through heat, friction, absorption and bullet deformation, it is just a meaningless number.
 
I don't want you to take this as hostility, but I'm curious how much experience you've had with .357 failing. I would pose the same question to MaxP. I understand you all have extensive experience hunting big game with a handgun, and I can understand empirically reasoning that bigger bore cartridges are better for that purpose. You've made some compelling arguments why the big bores are more attractive than the .357 -- but to what degree have you actually proven to yourself that .357 is inferior?
Read line 3 of my signature. There's enough information out there that I have gleaned in 30yrs of study that I don't have to have failures of my own. That said, I have seen successes and failures with the .357. Enough to conclude that it works well when everything is right but not so well when everything is not. This is why I regard the .357 as a choice for the expert with experience, good judgement and self control. Not for the beginner or intermediate. For the .357 to perform as advertised, it needs an expanding bullet but one that doesn't open too slowly or quickly. It is best to avoid major bones and wait for perfect broadside presentation. Heavy cast bullets in the .357 certainly penetrate well enough but they're too small to produce a large wound channel. The big bores do not have such caveats or limitations until the game gets to be very large. In which case they're still big enough but heavier, tougher bullets can be utilized to get proper performance. A good .44Mag or .45Colt can be loaded from mousefart 700fps CAS loads to +350gr monster mashers and everything in between. The .357 is low man on the totem pole. Really too much for a snubby. Just right in the medium frame revolver and not enough for much hunting. That does not scream versatility to me. Nor do the feelings of adequacy from its fans.
 
More ramblngs... The other thing that always strikes me about discussion of 38/357 magnum revolvers is the number of responses you get to the effect that they have a particular 357 Magnum revolver but shoot 38 Special in it all/most of the time. There are many reasons giving but it always strikes me how often I see comments to this effect. I realized this personally, and part of the reason I created the thread to discuss, is I have simply accepted the fact that I like and use 38 Special and do not use 357 Mag. I bought my 442 for pocket carry under this reasoning and saved money (and nerve damage). My Model 10 bought as my IDPA/woods-gun under the same acceptance. An old Model 10/64 heavy barrel is significantly easier to find and cheaper than a similarly configured Model 13/65. Had I not been in a rush to upgrade from my 625 to a 8-shooter when USPSA changed the rules I would not now own a 627 in 357 Mag but a 929 in 9mm. This sort of plays into the idea that everyone initially comes to 357 Magnum for it flexibility of shooting both 38 Special and 357 Mag (and technically 38 Short Colt and 38 Long Colt too) and yet many of them rarely if ever use the 357 Mag capabilities. This idea of flexibility is certainly what led me to buy my first revolver my Ruger Blackhawk convertible, 38 Special/357 Mag and with a cylinder change 9mm too. Alas it never really became that useful to me as shortly after I purchased the Blackhawk I got sucked into USPSA competition and shortly after than into Revolver division. I have no doubt my very avid engagement in USPSA competition has colored my perception of handguns in general and revolvers specifically more than anything else I do with a handgun. Any love I had for single action only went out the window and if it was going to be a revolver it had to be double action and moonclips. I certainly have a few revolvers now that don't use moonclips but half my collection does and the ones I shoot most certainly do. Despite being a hunter all my life hunting with a handgun was something I did not get serious about until the last few years. I made due with my 610 in 10mm and still think for whitetail deer 10mm Auto or 357 Magnum is perfectly acceptable. But when I finally bought a hunting revolver it was in 44 Mag. This is about all the more recoil I enjoy and combined with my M92 carbine works well for the pistol caliber carbine/revolver combo.

My 442 carry setup:
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My IDPA/Woods setup:
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My USPSA Major Revolver setup:
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My USPSA Minor Revolver setup:
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My hunting setup with my 610 in 10mm, My M29 in 44 Mag is an identical revolver in blue steel and goes in the same rig:
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I don't believe the hype about .357. But if there was evidence it's effectiveness was inferior to .44 Special, we'd see that in comparison to the more heavily tried and tested .45 ACP, but I don't see much consensus on the superiority of terminal effects from anything between 9mm and .45, or any reason to think the .357 isn't about the same as the rest.

This is an inadvertent observational bias. You’re using a selective dataset to make a broad claim here.

What you’ve said is akin to saying there’s no evidence a Honda Civic can’t tow as much as a Ford F-350 because you see Civic’s passing F-350’s on the interstate...

More of the same - usefulness for one limited application doesn’t impart versatility. Versatility, of course, being the common lie used to mislead new buyers into getting a .357mag.
 
Do you have a .454? Have you shot anything with it? Just curious.

I've not shot any game with any handgun. That's why I wanted it to be clear I wasn't arguing with you, but my questions were sincere.
 
I shot the 340 PD with Corbons.
It is nasty.
Have shot the 329 PD w wood grips and medium hot 255's (or 265's).
It was not as bad. Dare I say.....even fun.
The gun did come up quite a bit :)
 
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This may have been said, but at 9 pages, I didn't have time to read all of this right now.

I like 357 mag and 44 mag revolvers. Admittedly, I only ever shoot 38's- light ones at that, and 44 specials. When I hunt I load some 44 mags up. The versatility is nice. With 357 mag/38 spcl, I rarely (If ever) load 357 mag rounds. I would if i concealed carried it but i don't, so i see where your coming from. For me, 357 mag isn't something I do.
If I were to buy a new revolver right now I would buy a revolver in just about any other cartridge possible before I buy another 357 Magnum.
That. Seems extreme. But no judgment passed.
 
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I like my 2 1/2" 686, it's fun and would deliver enough energy for defense against two legged creatures, but I much prefer my 3" .44 Spl for that, just as effective, if not more so, doesn't need to expand, the muzzle blast is much less, and the sound is much easier on the ears in a defensive situation with no hearing protection. No way on earth do I want to fire a 2 1/2" .357 indoors without hearing protection. No way. The much lower pitch boom of .44 Spl and .45 ACP, both low pressure big diameter rounds, is bad enough indoors (Which, unfortunately, I have done [.45 ACP]), but the .357 outdoors is bad enough, I can't dream of what it would be like indoors. Ouch, yea man, I'm alive, but my ears are bleeding.... An exaggeration? Maybe, but you get the point. Same for .327 Federal, no way in Hades am I touching one off indoors.

But I still love my .357 range toys.

I don't hunt with a revolver, but if I did it would be .41 Mag and up. A deer deserves an adequate caliber for the best chance of a clean kill. Sure, people use .357 with success, but there are better options with a bigger window for success.

But again, I am keeping my .357s. :)
 
That. Seems extreme. But no judgment passed.

It probably is extreme but the truth no doubt. And I take no offense or judgement in the comment. I simply cannot think of a particular revolver model that I want that is not or cannot be had in a caliber other than 357 Magnum.

If I think about it here is a list of potential revolvers that are of highest priority to me as I think of new revolver I might buy if I had some fun money rolling up hill.
1) 455 Webley in a Webley Mark VI or other Webley top break in this cartridge. I have a soft spot in my heart for top break revolvers and I need a big bore one.
2) 9mm in a S&W 929 to replace my 627 PC as my USPSA revolver. 9mm moonclips are more robust and less finicky about brass pairing than 38/357 moonclips
3) Another 38 S&W. I would love to have an old S&W Terrier in 38 S&W. Would be a nice coat pocket gun.

Going off the deep end now
4) A Britsh Bulldog (Webley or not) in 450 Adams or similar short and fat cartridge. Big bore coat pocket gun
5) 11mm 1873 MLE in a Model 1873 French Service revolver (yes I have watch The Mummy too many times)
6) Another 10mm in a GP-100, would be an awesome woods gun and IDPA revolver.

I can't think of a revolver model in 357 Magnum that I desire. I would not refuse a gift of a 357 Magnum revolver but at this point I would not put cash on the counter for any 357 Magnum that comes to mind.
 
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That. Seems extreme. But no judgment passed.
I find it really easy to get along without the .357Mag. Of my 71 revolvers, only 7 are .357's. Of those, the majority were bought with the intent of converting them to something more interesting, such as .38-40's, .41Spl's, .44Spl's and .45ACP's. I'll probably keep a minty 4 5/8" Ruger flat-top as-is but a 6½" flat-top, 6½" Old Model, Cimarron Bisley, 6" half lug GP100 and either of my N-frames could potentially get converted. Particularly the freckled 27-2.
 
This is an inadvertent observational bias. You’re using a selective dataset to make a broad claim here.

What you’ve said is akin to saying there’s no evidence a Honda Civic can’t tow as much as a Ford F-350 because you see Civic’s passing F-350’s on the interstate...

More of the same - usefulness for one limited application doesn’t impart versatility. Versatility, of course, being the common lie used to mislead new buyers into getting a .357mag.
What uses for a handgun is the .357 inadequate for?
 
I always wondered where little game stopped and big game began! I do feel a Cape buffalo is big game and a rabbit or squirrel is small game. But exactly where is the dividing line as related to .357 is inadequate!
Just curious?
 
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