357 Magnum has become pointless... for me.

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"Flexible..."

"Versatile..."

For these to apply, I really feel like there should be an easy list of applications the cartridge can successfully accomplish... Still waiting for a list of things the 357mag is actually good for...

Guys seem to get bent out of shape when someone calls out their favorite range and defensive cartridge, but that's really all it does well - two legged critters. The .357mag can be great for the one thing it does well, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it versatile, or flexible.
I see a trend developing. Apparently it's good for carrying and providing peace of mind but not actually "doing" much at all.


Right. And that 1500 fps load is so much louder and more uncomfortable to shoot when it is a 158 grainer from a m28 than it is with a 240 grain bullet sent from a m29. Also I love being able to not only take game with my .44 mag, but to carry my .44 magnum in a lighter k frame while hiking, and pocketing it in my .44 mag LCR when going in to town, versatility for sure.
As I've said numerous times, the big bores don't have to run 1500fps to be effective, the .357 does. For example, my 37oz custom Old Model Blackhawk or 38oz 5" GP100, both .44Spl's built on .357 frames, handily outclass anything possible in the .357 without the need to exceed 1000fps. My 629MG .44Mag, which according to frothing .357 fans is a boat anchor, weighs a hefty 40oz. Or the same as a loaded Glock 20. Whopping 4oz more than a 4" model 15.
 
I see a trend developing. Apparently it's good for carrying and providing peace of mind but not actually "doing" much at all.



As I've said numerous times, the big bores don't have to run 1500fps to be effective, the .357 does. For example, my 37oz custom Old Model Blackhawk or 38oz 5" GP100, both .44Spl's built on .357 frames, handily outclass anything possible in the .357 without the need to exceed 1000fps. My 629MG .44Mag, which according to frothing .357 fans is a boat anchor, weighs a hefty 40oz. Or the same as a loaded Glock 20. Whopping 4oz more than a 4" model 15.

They don’t, but they knock the snot out of game when you ramp the speeds up - that and the shooter gets somewhat pummeled! :)
 
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I see a trend developing. Apparently it's good for carrying and providing peace of mind but not actually "doing" much at all.


As I've said numerous times, the big bores don't have to run 1500fps to be effective, the .357 does. For example, my 37oz custom Old Model Blackhawk or 38oz 5" GP100, both .44Spl's built on .357 frames, handily outclass anything possible in the .357 without the need to exceed 1000fps. My 629MG .44Mag, which according to frothing .357 fans is a boat anchor, weighs a hefty 40oz. Or the same as a loaded Glock 20. Whopping 4oz more than a 4" model 15.

Craig, I live and hunt in Pennsylvania. Outside of hunting Black Bear or Elk (and if I were lucky enough to pull a PA elk tag, I wouldn't hunt one with a handgun, but this is hypothetical), what uses would I have for a handgun that the .357 inadequate for? I can't think of anything. Would you recommend a .44 special for bear or elk hunting? Your needs for a handgun certainly outstrip the .357's abilities, but just like you might think that my handgun uses are fairly limited, I might think that your handgun uses are rather specialized.

The 1500 fps thing was in direct response to the post I quoted. I've read what you write with much respect and understand fully what you're saying, and while I don't believe the .357 is only good for peace of mind, I agree with you.

As for the MG, why not just a standard 629? Was the whopping 2oz worth the premium? The reality is, it is tough to get smaller than an L frame with a .44 magnum, the size of the gun limits its uses, not the capability of the round.

The size of your collection, the uses you have for handguns, the geographic region you inhabit or frequent may indeed make the .357 pointless, for you. It might not be the best round for MANY handgun jobs. But it is useful for lots of what most handguns get used for, is available from J through N, LCR through Redhawk, managable for most shooters, and the platforms also can utilize .38's which are very economical for practice. I'm no frothing fan, and can certainly recognize the .357's limitations, but I'm not blind to its capabilities, and the roles it fills.
 
Keep in mind that there are a lot more cases (read: statistical samples) of .357 use than let’s say .44 Mag use in personal protection or police shootings, therefore it is over represented. There’s nothing magic about the 125 grain loads for personal defense. Effective yes, but if more folks were able to shoot .454 Casulls well, no one would tout the 125 grain .357 loads.
Ouch! Is that you, Elmer? I thought you were dead.

We've made some great technological advantages, but what made the 125gr JHP kind of a "magic bullet" isn't it's power, but the fact that it expands beautifully and it stays in the body. I'm old enough to remember when gun writers recommended the 158gr JHP for police. It turns out it was a disaster. The recoil was awful and the bullets went right through people and expended most of its energy after the bullet exited the body. In California, two cops were shot by some guy with a .45 ACP because, combined with the recoil, the cops had problems hitting the bad guy, who managed to be hit twice, but continued shooting. The .454 would be disastrous because, even if cops could shoot it, I honestly don't believe it would put someone down better than the .357 125gr JHP. And even if the cops could shoot the gun, and even if they could hit their targets, the bullets would sail through the bad guys and possibly hit others.

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There are better choices for bear protection and hunting backup than the .357 - much better choices that aren’t real hard to shoot and make the .357 look like what it is, minuscule.
One thing that makes this load so effective is that there's a point of diminishing marginal return. If the 125gr JHP, launched at 1,400 fps, hits a person, they go down with a single shot. A .454 might hit them with more energy, and a cannon hit them with even more, but no cop in his right mind would call a .357 "minuscule." The Highway Patrol was very happy with the .357 back in the day. The 125gr JHP could penetrate doors, tires and windows while the 110gr JHP didn't. In fact, in Wisconsin and Michigan, the 110gr JHP would often open up in winter coats and heavy jackets, while 158gr JHPs continued to overpenetrate. When everyone jumped ship in the 1980s-90s, they went to the .40 autos. Friends of mine in the Treasury Department were anxious to see how they worked. Sadly, after two years, there were some notable failures of the .40 to stop armed opponents, one of which was a 50 year old woman who took two torso hits with a .40 and didn't even slow down. One of the agents finally stopped her by bringing the gun down on the front part of her head. That kind of cooled them off to the caliber, for which they had high hopes. After that failure, two of the guys in his office (besides him) all began carrying their 3-inch Ruger SP-101s as backups.
I thought I had explained it fairly well. Could I use a 357 Magnum for any of the activities I do with a revolver? Sure. But for me it is not the best choice for any of those activities and I have found cartridges that work better.
Yep. That came through pretty clear. Just not sure which calibers and rounds you thought were better, and for which purpose. You're right about using air-weight .357s. They're loud and they beat a person up. I shot two 125gr JHPs through a derringer I had foolishly bought in the early 90s. Won't be doing that again.

At an NRA convention in Philadelphia years ago, I talked to a fellow who had been charged by a grizzly. He fired all six rounds and managed to stop it. Later, he swore he had only fired two shots, but his friend showed him the fired rounds in his Model 29. "I could have sworn I only fired two shots," he told me. "I had no hearing loss, not even a ringing in the ears. I remember firing two shots, but all six cases told a different story." He said his friend told him that he (his friend) and another fellow had to work together to get him to let go of the revolver. My point is, often when you have to fire a gun in self defense, you develop a tunnel vision. Blast and recoil aren't issues when your life is at stake. A Navy employee once told me his car was attack by a grizzly and he had a photo to prove it. Sure enough, it was coming right at him. He had photos of the car after the attack and the whole side of it was crushed in like a soda can. Fortunately, the bear chose to bite the door rather than him and you could see the bite marks. The place that rented him the car chose not to repair or replace the car. Instead, they took if from place to place and displayed it in their offices with a placard telling the story. The really amazing thing was, this fellow didn't remember taking the photo, nor the 33 minutes he spent driving down the highway with a cop car behind him with the lights on. The cop saw the whole thing, but the fellow was in a trance for more than a half hour. Finally, the guy came to and had no memory of anything after the bear charging. When the film in his camera was developed, he saw the photo of the charging bear and had no recollection of taking it. (A truck had hit the bear and stunned it, and when it came to, this guy was the first thing he saw!)

For a black bear, yeah, I'd prefer a .44 Magnum, but I wouldn't carry it when every ounce mattered. Most times the bears take off. I'm perfectly confident with a Ruger Speed-Six with a 3-inch barrel and heavier bullets. I've never heard of anyone being overpowered by a black bear after shooting it with a .357, but I've heard of a lot of people without guns being killed by black bears. If push came to shove, an Ontario SP-10 Bowie knife will give people a wicked "edge" against a black bear. And I have a friend who killed a charging cougar with his Dan Wesson .357. It dropped from a tree and came at him. He missed the first shot, but the second connected and dropped it dead in its tracks. Later they sawed off its head and sent it to the CDC in Colorado (he was in Utah). Two days later, he got a call. The cat was rabid. It's a good thing it never made it to him as rabies shots are really unpleasant.

Me, I can see the benefits of larger calibers, but I would NEVER call the .357 "miniscule." Unpleasant, perhaps. Loud, definitely. But never miniscule. An airweight is too light, and a 3-inch SP-101 would do if I were armed with a large Bowie. The SP-10 might be a bit heavy, but a K-Bar might work if weight was an issue, and concealability. My state forbids carrying any gun, so if I hiked there, I'd need something that was easily concealed. Most bears, if shot with pepper spray, will take off. If there's wind, just shoot for the nose, not the head -- at least that's what I've been told by hunters. ۞
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What is the evidence that anything ballistically similar to .357 is easier on the hearing? By ballistically similar I mean either with similar energy or similar power factor. I mean, understandably a .38 Cowboy load is going to be easier on the ears than a supersonic .357. But is a 10mm, .41 or .44 magnum, a .45LC Ruger load or anything else with at least 170 PF going to be so much quieter that you can forgo hearing protection for even a few shots?
 
I can't effectively use 357 Magnum in a air weight snub nose revolver.

I definitely agree.

I do not like to shoot 38 Special +p in an Air weight snub nose revolver. That does not mean I write off all 38 Special +p ammunition but just plain 38 Special ammunition in my Air weights works just fine for me..

I have a 3" S&W Model 60 that is very pleasant to shoot my mid range 357 Magnum loads (900-950 fps 158 gr SWC in a 6" revolver). A nice combination. But, I will not own a 2" 357 Magnum Model 60 but I do have several 2" 38 Special Model 60's.

Everyone has there own likes and dislikes and that is great. 10mm Auto just does not ring my bell but I do not stomp around disparaging the round. It has some good features that many folks like. Just, not for me.

Same for 357 Magnum. I used to shoot IHMSA handgun with a 357 Magnum revolver and a 10" Contender. It worked well and if I did my part (I know, a typical cliche), the targets fell. I have a respect for the round.

In general, I'm a fan of heavy, slow moving, large diameter bullets, aka 45 Colt, 45 ACP, or 44 Special. But a 38 Special or a mid range 357 Magnum with 158 grain bullets provide adequate performance in my book for most of my needs.
 
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What is the evidence that anything ballistically similar to .357 is easier on the hearing? By ballistically similar I mean either with similar energy or similar power factor. I mean, understandably a .38 Cowboy load is going to be easier on the ears than a supersonic .357. But is a 10mm, .41 or .44 magnum, a .45LC Ruger load or anything else with at least 170 PF going to be so much quieter that you can forgo hearing protection for even a few shots?

The math is pretty easy on this. Power factors are a momentum calc, and blast volume is a factor of combustion completeness and pressure let down ratio. Throw a petite charge under a larger caliber, you’ll get the same bullet weight to the same velocity at a lower pressure, and most likely a more complete burn for the bore efficiency. There’s a reason the 357mag has earned a reputation for blast. Pitch and pressure...
 
What is the evidence that anything ballistically similar to .357 is easier on the hearing? By ballistically similar I mean either with similar energy or similar power factor. I mean, understandably a .38 Cowboy load is going to be easier on the ears than a supersonic .357. But is a 10mm, .41 or .44 magnum, a .45LC Ruger load or anything else with at least 170 PF going to be so much quieter that you can forgo hearing protection for even a few shots?

Far from conclusive but when I was selecting and sighting in which of my revolver I was going to deer hunting with a few years ago I fired the two revolver I was considering using without ear-pro and the difference was noticeable. I did not have a sound meter so it was subjective. One gun was my 6.5 inch Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Magnum with 158 gr XTP pushed by H110 to ~1300fps. The other was my 6.5 inch S&W 610 in 10mm Auto with a 200gr XTP pushed by 800-x to ~1250fps. The 10mm in the 610 was noticeable quieter. That was several years ago, picture of success with the 610 posted in an earlier post.

In retrospect I suspect that sound difference was primarily due to the two powders chosen more than anything, the 10mm load had over 100 ft-lbs more energy but was noticeably quieter, both were mildly painful but only the 357 Mag rang my ears**. H110 does seem to have substantial muzzle blast compared to 800-x. This was super evident this past summer working up a load for my 44 mag as the 800-x was so much more pleasant to shoot that H110. I had loaded 240gr XTP to ~1350 fps with both powders and the difference was night and day. The H110 had tons of muzzle blast and flash. The 800-x load achieved the same velocity with ~60% the mass of propellant and thus had a small but perceptible reduction in recoil and more importantly much less muzzle blast and no flash. I save the H110 for 450 Bushmaster and 410 Shotgun shells.

**I rarely shoot without ear-pro. Ususally just one or two shots with a new CCW gun and the occasional shot while hunting. That said I grew up hunting in a shotgun only state and although still hard on your hearing the occasional unprotected shotgun shot is not nearly as damaging as center fire rifles and big handguns. Now that I am hunting with more rifles having moved out of Ohio I am using ear-pro some when hunting too. I wore my Peltor Tactical Sport electronic muffs most of this season as my 450 Bushmaster with it brake is painful to shoot unprotected. I love those muff for USPSA matches, but they were not the best in the woods. I am looking for something that does not mess with my hearing as much for next season.
 
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I'm just about to buy a new revolver (or at least new to me). I thought it would be a .357, but I'm open to alternatives. I've read a lot of what's been written here, but I'm not quite persuaded one way or another.

I carry a .357 revolver now. Because it's my carry gun, I would count on it for self-defense, but I don't think of it as primarily a self-defense gun. It serves any purpose I might have for a handgun. While possible, I doubt I would hunt deer, coyote, bobcat with it, but I almost certainly wouldn't hunt elk, brown bear, moose or bison, not just because it's .357, but because those would be big-dollar out-of-state hunts for me and I don't see that happening, least of all with a handgun, in many years to come. Mostly I'd shoot targets, cans, plastic bottles, paper, steel. I suppose that's what most people shoot more than anything.

For self-defense, I don't feel unarmed with a revolver, and I haven't really heard of .357 coming up short there. I always felt sufficiently armed with 5 shots and a speed strip. I took a class with the J frame, I trained, I practiced a lot, but I started carrying a single action not because I thought it was better for self-defense, but because I liked it better as an all-purpose gun. If I had a self-defense situation, I don't think I would regret having a single action as much as I would regret not having anything at all. I looked at big-bores before I bought my single action. I liked the SBH in .454 and .480, not because I thought they'd be better for self-defense, but because they support the loading gate with more than just brass case heads. A .44 would probably be more practical, but I didn't really like the guns. I want to enjoy the gun I carry for every purpose, and I don't feel those situations where for example 10-shots are going to make the difference versus only 7-shots are good enough justification to suffer a gun I hate for every other purpose.

So if I buy a double-action revolver now, how can I do better than something like a GP100 or 686 in .357? I suppose I could get a GP100 in .40S&W/10mm, but the 10 is typically shooting 180 or 200 grain bullets about the same as .357 does. I also considered the Model 27/627, so I suppose if I went with the higher bore-center like that, it could just as well be a .44 or .45. I'd still consider a single-action, just with a Bisley type grip. I don't care for the standard grip, particularly where there is some recoil.
 
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I'm just about to buy a new revolver (or at least new to me). I thought it would be a .357, but I'm open to alternatives. I've read a lot of what's been written here, but I'm not quite persuaded one way or another.

I carry a .357 revolver now. Because it's my carry gun, I would count on it for self-defense, but I don't think of it as primarily a self-defense gun. It serves any purpose I might have for a handgun. While possible, I doubt I would hunt deer, coyote, bobcat with it, but I almost certainly wouldn't hunt elk, brown bear, moose or bison, not just because it's .357, but because those would be big-dollar out-of-state hunts for me and I don't see that happening, least of all with a handgun, in many years to come. Mostly I'd shoot targets, cans, plastic bottles, paper, steel. I suppose that's what most people shoot more than anything.

For self-defense, I don't feel unarmed with a revolver, and I haven't really heard of .357 coming up short there. I always felt sufficiently armed with 5 shots and a speed strip. I took a class with the J frame, I trained, I practiced a lot, but I started carrying a single action not because I thought it was better for self-defense, but because I liked it better as an all-purpose gun. If I had a self-defense situation, I don't think I would regret having a single action as much as I would regret not having anything at all. I looked at big-bores before I bought my single action. I liked the SBH in .454 and .480, not because I thought they'd be better for self-defense, but because they support the loading gate with more than just brass case heads. A .44 would probably be more practical, but I didn't really like the guns. I want to enjoy the gun I carry for every purpose, and I don't feel those situations where for example 10-shots are going to make the difference versus only 7-shots are good enough justification to suffer a gun I hate for every other purpose.

So if I buy a double-action revolver now, how can I do better than something like a GP100 or 686 in .357? I suppose I could get a GP100 in .40S&W/10mm, but the 10 is typically shooting 180 or 200 grain bullets about the same as .357 does. I also considered the Model 27/627, so I suppose if I went with the higher bore-center like that, it could just as well be a .44 or .45. I'd still consider a single-action, just with a Bisley type grip. I don't care for the standard grip, particularly where there is some recoil.

If your looking for a general purpose revolver then 357 Magnum is fine choice. Now if you have a very specific use then you can get much more selective about the revolver and cartridge. For example if you asked about what revolver to get for USPSA competition, the answer is a S&W 929 in 9mm with a 627 using 38 Super or 38 Short Colt a distant second. If you were serious about thick-skinned big-game hunting then the various 45 and 475 and 500 revolver cartridges come to mind. The more specific your task the more selective you can be if you want.
 
If I was hiking in bear country I'd have a Smith 329 PD.
Think the gun empty is what........25 oz?
I shot one w medium hot 255gr loads......wasn't bad.
Did whip a good bit LOL
 
If I was hiking in bear country I'd have a Smith 329 PD.
Think the gun empty is what........25 oz?
I shot one w medium hot 255gr loads......wasn't bad.
Did whip a good bit LOL

25oz 44 Mag sound painful. I wonder which is more painful. Hot 44 Mag in the the 329PD or hot 357 Mag in a 340PD. I have shot 340PD and it was one of the more unpleasant revolvers I have ever shot. I will have to find someone with a 329PD and see if it worst.
 
I have two .357's, Ruger Blackhawk 6 inch and a Ruger SP101, 2 1/8 inch. The SP101 is not fun to shoot full power loads, it doesen't fit my hand very well, but the Blackhawk I can shoot the heavy loads much more comfortably. the SP101 gets a pretty steady diet of .38's, the kids love it at the range. hdbiker
 
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Versatile for what I guess is the question. Hunting is different than playing, which is different than self defense, which is different than playing pistol games.
 
Versatile for what I guess is the question. Hunting is different than playing, which is different than self defense, which is different than playing pistol games.
Good point.

The platform means you can have a gun weighing anywhere from ~11 oz to ~50 oz, holding 5 to 8 rounds, shooting bullets from ~90 grains to ~180 grains at velocities of ~ 600 FPS to ~ 1500 FPS. That certainly is versatile for some uses. I guess it all depends on what you want your gun to do, and at what pressures/velocities/decibels you want to do it at.

Depending on your criteria there are more versatile cartridges out there for sure. I’ll likely never hunt for large/dangerous game, so I don’t really need the versatility a big bore can offer, but I definitely recognize the limitations of the 357 Magnum.

I also think that being a reloader greatly changes the equation. The ubiquity of 357/38 gives a non-reloader a lot more options than 44 Mag/44 special. Or at least it does at the places I shop, both online and brick and mortar.

Someday I’d like to add a 44 special to my collection, but it appears I will need to set myself up to reload in order to enjoy all the cartridge can offer. Perhaps I’m mistaken on that though.
 
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LIke Armored Farmer, I find the 45 Colt much more well mannered and less ear abusive. I will not give up my 357, however. Each vehicle has one, and my stainless Blackhawk makes a nice friend for my old converted 92.
 
I've generally relegated the .357mag to "jack of all, master of none" status. Like a certain popular .30cal 113 year old rifle cartridge, it's too much power, recoil and blast for 95% of my needs, and if/when I'd need power, I'd step up to something heavier.
 
Ouch! Is that you, Elmer? I thought you were dead.

We've made some great technological advantages, but what made the 125gr JHP kind of a "magic bullet" isn't it's power, but the fact that it expands beautifully and it stays in the body. I'm old enough to remember when gun writers recommended the 158gr JHP for police. It turns out it was a disaster. The recoil was awful and the bullets went right through people and expended most of its energy after the bullet exited the body. In California, two cops were shot by some guy with a .45 ACP because, combined with the recoil, the cops had problems hitting the bad guy, who managed to be hit twice, but continued shooting. The .454 would be disastrous because, even if cops could shoot it, I honestly don't believe it would put someone down better than the .357 125gr JHP. And even if the cops could shoot the gun, and even if they could hit their targets, the bullets would sail through the bad guys and possibly hit others.

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One thing that makes this load so effective is that there's a point of diminishing marginal return. If the 125gr JHP, launched at 1,400 fps, hits a person, they go down with a single shot. A .454 might hit them with more energy, and a cannon hit them with even more, but no cop in his right mind would call a .357 "minuscule." The Highway Patrol was very happy with the .357 back in the day. The 125gr JHP could penetrate doors, tires and windows while the 110gr JHP didn't. In fact, in Wisconsin and Michigan, the 110gr JHP would often open up in winter coats and heavy jackets, while 158gr JHPs continued to overpenetrate. When everyone jumped ship in the 1980s-90s, they went to the .40 autos. Friends of mine in the Treasury Department were anxious to see how they worked. Sadly, after two years, there were some notable failures of the .40 to stop armed opponents, one of which was a 50 year old woman who took two torso hits with a .40 and didn't even slow down. One of the agents finally stopped her by bringing the gun down on the front part of her head. That kind of cooled them off to the caliber, for which they had high hopes. After that failure, two of the guys in his office (besides him) all began carrying their 3-inch Ruger SP-101s as backups.
Yep. That came through pretty clear. Just not sure which calibers and rounds you thought were better, and for which purpose. You're right about using air-weight .357s. They're loud and they beat a person up. I shot two 125gr JHPs through a derringer I had foolishly bought in the early 90s. Won't be doing that again.

At an NRA convention in Philadelphia years ago, I talked to a fellow who had been charged by a grizzly. He fired all six rounds and managed to stop it. Later, he swore he had only fired two shots, but his friend showed him the fired rounds in his Model 29. "I could have sworn I only fired two shots," he told me. "I had no hearing loss, not even a ringing in the ears. I remember firing two shots, but all six cases told a different story." He said his friend told him that he (his friend) and another fellow had to work together to get him to let go of the revolver. My point is, often when you have to fire a gun in self defense, you develop a tunnel vision. Blast and recoil aren't issues when your life is at stake. A Navy employee once told me his car was attack by a grizzly and he had a photo to prove it. Sure enough, it was coming right at him. He had photos of the car after the attack and the whole side of it was crushed in like a soda can. Fortunately, the bear chose to bite the door rather than him and you could see the bite marks. The place that rented him the car chose not to repair or replace the car. Instead, they took if from place to place and displayed it in their offices with a placard telling the story. The really amazing thing was, this fellow didn't remember taking the photo, nor the 33 minutes he spent driving down the highway with a cop car behind him with the lights on. The cop saw the whole thing, but the fellow was in a trance for more than a half hour. Finally, the guy came to and had no memory of anything after the bear charging. When the film in his camera was developed, he saw the photo of the charging bear and had no recollection of taking it. (A truck had hit the bear and stunned it, and when it came to, this guy was the first thing he saw!)

For a black bear, yeah, I'd prefer a .44 Magnum, but I wouldn't carry it when every ounce mattered. Most times the bears take off. I'm perfectly confident with a Ruger Speed-Six with a 3-inch barrel and heavier bullets. I've never heard of anyone being overpowered by a black bear after shooting it with a .357, but I've heard of a lot of people without guns being killed by black bears. If push came to shove, an Ontario SP-10 Bowie knife will give people a wicked "edge" against a black bear. And I have a friend who killed a charging cougar with his Dan Wesson .357. It dropped from a tree and came at him. He missed the first shot, but the second connected and dropped it dead in its tracks. Later they sawed off its head and sent it to the CDC in Colorado (he was in Utah). Two days later, he got a call. The cat was rabid. It's a good thing it never made it to him as rabies shots are really unpleasant.

Me, I can see the benefits of larger calibers, but I would NEVER call the .357 "miniscule." Unpleasant, perhaps. Loud, definitely. But never miniscule. An airweight is too light, and a 3-inch SP-101 would do if I were armed with a large Bowie. The SP-10 might be a bit heavy, but a K-Bar might work if weight was an issue, and concealability. My state forbids carrying any gun, so if I hiked there, I'd need something that was easily concealed. Most bears, if shot with pepper spray, will take off. If there's wind, just shoot for the nose, not the head -- at least that's what I've been told by hunters. ۞
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Where to begin. I am not Elmer-esque in the least. I like shooting .454s on up, and Dick Casull told me on more than one occasion that Elmer absolutely hated the recoil of his pet hot-rodded .45 (the .454). LOL!

For a person to go "down with a single shot," something of significance has to be hit - period. Since every person, or animal is a law unto itself, we cannot say with certainty where that spot is or what caliber/bullet combination will have that effect -- unless it is a CNS shot. Some perps get filled up with lead and still hurt cops, others drop with one shot. Unless every single variable can be controlled, it is hard to say what is best. That said, bigger is better, all things being equal. An exit can mean more damage, not "wasted energy." I would be more concerned about the marksmanship of the shooter rather than over-penetration. The .454 would be disastrous, for the person on the receiving end. If you think a 250 grain Barnes XPB at a modest (in .454 terms) 1,750 fps (we run them up over 1,900 fps in many cases) does somehow less damage than a 125 grain bullet at 1,400 fps, you need to brush up on your physics. That Barnes load does a truckload of damage to flesh. I've used it on medium/large sized game and the effects are palpable.

I have not faced a brown bear charge, but did have a Watusi that was down and apparently dead, reanimate when I got close and it attempted to make me into a grease stain on the ground. Not a bear, but a solid 1,000-lbs of bovine nonetheless. I didn't go into a trance, but everything seemed to slow down as I pumped a couple of 525 grain .500 Maximum loads into said bovine, which ended his quest to hurt me. I have also used revolvers on black bear (multiple), mountain lion, moose, whitetail, wild boar, Cape buffalo, etc., and I will say it again, bigger is better as long as the shooter is capable of delivering the goods accurately. I wouldn't on purpose use a .357 on any of the above mentioned animals if I had bigger and better choices, but that's just me.

They are miniscule. I don't have an emotional attachment to any caliber and really call it as I see it. Again, in my strange world, the little-.35s are just that, little (see photo below - .357 left, .44 right). It's all relative and you won't find me ever volunteering for bullet catcher duty irrespective of caliber, but bigger calibers can make bigger holes...

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Quick question, when was the recoil of the .357 (irrespective of load) in a full-sized revolver ever "awful?"
 
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I wonder which is more painful. Hot 44 Mag in the the 329PD or hot 357 Mag in a 340PD.

I can attest to this one - the 329 is far worse. Neither are friendly, but one is a real magnum, and one is a mouse, and the weight increase isn’t sufficient to offset the increased power.
 
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The .357 is my go to revolver. I love the round for stopping power and the Colt King Cobra and S&W Model 19 are my two favorite revolvers in this round. My Dad had a S&W model 65 he carried when I was a kid growing up in the 1970's and I loved shooting that piece. The big boom and recoil felt great, I know weird for a kid but in my neighborhood I was known for liking big shooting weapons. One of the neighbors had his .10 gauge shotgun out shooting one day at the place in the mountains where people in our neighborhood would go do target practice and a bunch of us kids were watching. He asked if any of us wanted to shoot and my hand popped up with the proviso that he lean into my back and shoulder to help with the recoil. I was probably 8-9 and he agreed and man that was fun firing that old break top .10 gauge! Love the .357 magnum!
 
What is the evidence that anything ballistically similar to .357 is easier on the hearing? By ballistically similar I mean either with similar energy or similar power factor. I mean, understandably a .38 Cowboy load is going to be easier on the ears than a supersonic .357. But is a 10mm, .41 or .44 magnum, a .45LC Ruger load or anything else with at least 170 PF going to be so much quieter that you can forgo hearing protection for even a few shots?

There is none. Nobody shoots any of those without ear protection. I've never understood the complaint that 357 is too loud. Must be too loud for some people even with ear protection.:confused: Anything supersonic is going to be loud. 9 mm plus and an AR is just as loud as 357 (around 165 dB).
 
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The .357 is a proven fight stopper, that much is true. I guess I look at it like this, while it is important, practicing/training for self defense is a whole lot of work for something that is highly unlikely to ever happen. Conversely, as an outdoorsman, I KNOW that my handguns will be used on flesh. No if's, but's or maybe's.


I've generally relegated the .357mag to "jack of all, master of none" status. Like a certain popular .30cal 113 year old rifle cartridge, it's too much power, recoil and blast for 95% of my needs, and if/when I'd need power, I'd step up to something heavier.
I look at it the exact same way. Just like the other cartridge you referenced, it's an exercise in either too much or not enough.


Craig, I live and hunt in Pennsylvania. Outside of hunting Black Bear or Elk (and if I were lucky enough to pull a PA elk tag, I wouldn't hunt one with a handgun, but this is hypothetical), what uses would I have for a handgun that the .357 inadequate for? I can't think of anything. Would you recommend a .44 special for bear or elk hunting? Your needs for a handgun certainly outstrip the .357's abilities, but just like you might think that my handgun uses are fairly limited, I might think that your handgun uses are rather specialized.

The 1500 fps thing was in direct response to the post I quoted. I've read what you write with much respect and understand fully what you're saying, and while I don't believe the .357 is only good for peace of mind, I agree with you.

As for the MG, why not just a standard 629? Was the whopping 2oz worth the premium? The reality is, it is tough to get smaller than an L frame with a .44 magnum, the size of the gun limits its uses, not the capability of the round.

The size of your collection, the uses you have for handguns, the geographic region you inhabit or frequent may indeed make the .357 pointless, for you. It might not be the best round for MANY handgun jobs. But it is useful for lots of what most handguns get used for, is available from J through N, LCR through Redhawk, managable for most shooters, and the platforms also can utilize .38's which are very economical for practice. I'm no frothing fan, and can certainly recognize the .357's limitations, but I'm not blind to its capabilities, and the roles it fills.
I would suggest the .44Spl over any .357 iteration. It's not that the .357 is necessarily inadequate, it's the .44's and .45's will do the same job better without the recoil or brain piercing blast.

The 629MG is a result of my most profitable trade. It's probably the best version of the type, having forged innards and no lock. It was also tuned by Bob Munden and according to S&W's specs, it's 4oz lighter. Just as my 24-3 is 5oz lighter than my model 29. It's a difference you can feel and it's far more attractive. As I said, it's only 4oz heavier than my 4" model 15 and 3oz more than a 4" model 19. There's A LOT of capability in those few ounces. True, it is tough to beat the model 69 but I'm not going to trade a superior sixgun for an inferior one just to save 3oz. Truth is for a 36-38oz sixgun, I'll take the .44Spl every time.


There is none. Nobody shoots any of those without ear protection. I've never understood the complaint that 357 is too loud. Must be too loud for some people even with ear protection.:confused: An AR is louder than a 357 yet I don't hear very many people complaining about that.
Do you wear hearing protection while walking the woods? While hunting? While sitting in your office? The complaint is not that it's too loud, else I wouldn't be shooting at all. It's that it's too loud for the performance it yields. It's that there are better options that don't rattle your teeth loose. All handguns are loud but I'll take better AND quieter every chance I get.


Ouch! Is that you, Elmer? I thought you were dead.

We've made some great technological advantages, but what made the 125gr JHP kind of a "magic bullet" isn't it's power, but the fact that it expands beautifully and it stays in the body. I'm old enough to remember when gun writers recommended the 158gr JHP for police. It turns out it was a disaster. The recoil was awful and the bullets went right through people and expended most of its energy after the bullet exited the body. In California, two cops were shot by some guy with a .45 ACP because, combined with the recoil, the cops had problems hitting the bad guy, who managed to be hit twice, but continued shooting. The .454 would be disastrous because, even if cops could shoot it, I honestly don't believe it would put someone down better than the .357 125gr JHP. And even if the cops could shoot the gun, and even if they could hit their targets, the bullets would sail through the bad guys and possibly hit others.

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One thing that makes this load so effective is that there's a point of diminishing marginal return. If the 125gr JHP, launched at 1,400 fps, hits a person, they go down with a single shot. A .454 might hit them with more energy, and a cannon hit them with even more, but no cop in his right mind would call a .357 "minuscule." The Highway Patrol was very happy with the .357 back in the day. The 125gr JHP could penetrate doors, tires and windows while the 110gr JHP didn't. In fact, in Wisconsin and Michigan, the 110gr JHP would often open up in winter coats and heavy jackets, while 158gr JHPs continued to overpenetrate. When everyone jumped ship in the 1980s-90s, they went to the .40 autos. Friends of mine in the Treasury Department were anxious to see how they worked. Sadly, after two years, there were some notable failures of the .40 to stop armed opponents, one of which was a 50 year old woman who took two torso hits with a .40 and didn't even slow down. One of the agents finally stopped her by bringing the gun down on the front part of her head. That kind of cooled them off to the caliber, for which they had high hopes. After that failure, two of the guys in his office (besides him) all began carrying their 3-inch Ruger SP-101s as backups.
Yep. That came through pretty clear. Just not sure which calibers and rounds you thought were better, and for which purpose. You're right about using air-weight .357s. They're loud and they beat a person up. I shot two 125gr JHPs through a derringer I had foolishly bought in the early 90s. Won't be doing that again.

At an NRA convention in Philadelphia years ago, I talked to a fellow who had been charged by a grizzly. He fired all six rounds and managed to stop it. Later, he swore he had only fired two shots, but his friend showed him the fired rounds in his Model 29. "I could have sworn I only fired two shots," he told me. "I had no hearing loss, not even a ringing in the ears. I remember firing two shots, but all six cases told a different story." He said his friend told him that he (his friend) and another fellow had to work together to get him to let go of the revolver. My point is, often when you have to fire a gun in self defense, you develop a tunnel vision. Blast and recoil aren't issues when your life is at stake. A Navy employee once told me his car was attack by a grizzly and he had a photo to prove it. Sure enough, it was coming right at him. He had photos of the car after the attack and the whole side of it was crushed in like a soda can. Fortunately, the bear chose to bite the door rather than him and you could see the bite marks. The place that rented him the car chose not to repair or replace the car. Instead, they took if from place to place and displayed it in their offices with a placard telling the story. The really amazing thing was, this fellow didn't remember taking the photo, nor the 33 minutes he spent driving down the highway with a cop car behind him with the lights on. The cop saw the whole thing, but the fellow was in a trance for more than a half hour. Finally, the guy came to and had no memory of anything after the bear charging. When the film in his camera was developed, he saw the photo of the charging bear and had no recollection of taking it. (A truck had hit the bear and stunned it, and when it came to, this guy was the first thing he saw!)

For a black bear, yeah, I'd prefer a .44 Magnum, but I wouldn't carry it when every ounce mattered. Most times the bears take off. I'm perfectly confident with a Ruger Speed-Six with a 3-inch barrel and heavier bullets. I've never heard of anyone being overpowered by a black bear after shooting it with a .357, but I've heard of a lot of people without guns being killed by black bears. If push came to shove, an Ontario SP-10 Bowie knife will give people a wicked "edge" against a black bear. And I have a friend who killed a charging cougar with his Dan Wesson .357. It dropped from a tree and came at him. He missed the first shot, but the second connected and dropped it dead in its tracks. Later they sawed off its head and sent it to the CDC in Colorado (he was in Utah). Two days later, he got a call. The cat was rabid. It's a good thing it never made it to him as rabies shots are really unpleasant.

Me, I can see the benefits of larger calibers, but I would NEVER call the .357 "miniscule." Unpleasant, perhaps. Loud, definitely. But never miniscule. An airweight is too light, and a 3-inch SP-101 would do if I were armed with a large Bowie. The SP-10 might be a bit heavy, but a K-Bar might work if weight was an issue, and concealability. My state forbids carrying any gun, so if I hiked there, I'd need something that was easily concealed. Most bears, if shot with pepper spray, will take off. If there's wind, just shoot for the nose, not the head -- at least that's what I've been told by hunters. ۞
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All exactly what I'm talking about, myth & legend.
 
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